The future with Shepherd

[Taylor Swift]

Shepherd ran the club well until '04. We had money to spend because our revenue was relatively high. The club paid for its own transfers and still gave out dividends. Shepherd didn't dress it up in nice, technical language like Ashley's done but that's what it was. It worked very well too, which is a credit to Shepherd. You run a business well, you get a piece of the profits. No one's complaining about this part. However, we then suffered from not qualifying for the CL and then took a risk by giving Souness money to get us back into the CL. Because that didn't work out, where would the money have come from? We had spent it all, and would have had to wait a few seasons until we could get back onto a level-footing financially, and this is pretty much what we're doing now. Shepherd's pretty lucky, imo, that his legacy hasn't been totally tainted by what would have happened had he stayed. This is not to say that Ashley hasn't been a disappointment, but I think our managers would have gotten the same 'backing' that Ashley's given so far, if Shepherd had stayed. Again, I repeat, this is conjecture but I believe it's backed up with some of the soundbites regarding our finances and the financial reports also support this view.

 

Ashley's still been a disappointment because he's a billionaire and fair or not, we expected him to put some of his own money into the club (which would have been a marked difference from the way the club's been run for the past 20 years...). Because he didn't do that and fucked up his managerial appointments, he's alienated a lot of the support that he had because he was a replacement for Shepherd. I add here that we expected more because he's a billionaire - and this is different than saying 'anyone would be better than Shepherd'. Only some were/would be (in terms of expectations) and Ashley was one of them.

 

But, I still think that we would be a similar position if Shepherd had stayed and I'd be interested to hear any counter-arguments.

 

What's the most plausible scenario if Ashley hadn't bought out the club? Shepherd had just hired Allardyce and we had just finished 14th (?). What would have happened?

[Taylor Swift]

Bear in mind that Allardyce would have probably signed a few more players in the summer but couldn't because Mort and co were too slow to act, so he might have done better.

[mrmojorisin75]

personally i think it would have all ended very, very badly indeed...allardyce is not the kind of man you want spending heavily so he'd have wheeled & dealed for 2-3 seasons while the board balanced the books after the souness fiasco

 

probably slow progress up the table into the top half with mind-destroyingly bad football

 

then we'd have hit break point, either let allardyce spend some money or get a new manager in to do that and hope FS & the board could choose the right man to move us on

 

i personally would have had faith in neither scenario

[mrmojorisin75]

oh and apisith, you really should have put something in the OP about the slightest mention of mike ashley in this thread getting you a weeks ban from the forum, although i realise that's not possible...but still

[Unbelievable]

The thread is irrelevant. We have no future with Shepherd, only a past, and everything people will say is by definition conjecture as there is no basis in reality for an argument either way. What is grounded in reality though is we have a future under Ashley (ban me if you like), who is now the "problem owner" of Newcastle United Football Club. The only relevant question now is whether you believe we have a future with Ashley.

[mrmojorisin75]

The thread is irrelevant. We have no future with Shepherd, only a past, and everything people will say is by definition conjecture as there is no basis in reality for an argument either way. What is grounded in reality though is we have a future under Ashley (ban me if you like), who is now the "problem owner" of Newcastle United Football Club. The only relevant question now is whether you believe we have a future with Ashley.

 

piss poor

[Taylor Swift]

The thread is irrelevant. We have no future with Shepherd, only a past, and everything people will say is by definition conjecture as there is no basis in reality for an argument either way. What is grounded in reality though is we have a future under Ashley (ban me if you like), who is now the "problem owner" of Newcastle United Football Club. The only relevant question now is whether you believe we have a future with Ashley.

 

Of course it is/was a hypothetical 'future' but it is important to consider what could have been when you consider what is now. This thread is not irrelevant. How else are you supposed to judge whether what is is acceptable when you don't consider what could have been? If what could have been was titles galore and epic battles against the top sides in Europe, then we would definitely have something to lament about. If, however, the future was bleak then the situation now becomes more palatable and acceptable in the short-term. There was an opportunity cost of replacing Ashley with Shepherd and I am interested to hear people's views on what that is, and whether what's happened in the past couple of seasons is below the 'expected' returns (in terms of league tables, points, general performance) that a continuation of the Shepherd-led era would have garnered us.

[Unbelievable]

Shall I start a new thread asking where we would be in the league now if we still had Shearer at the age of 28? It's equally (ir)relevant if you ask me.

 

Seriously, Ashley will be judged on his own merits. We all know we were on a downward slope with Shepherd, but at least he had proved in the past he could turn a football club around. If Mike Ashley gets us relegated, will people be using the starting demise under Shepherd as an excuse for Ashley's failing..? If so, that would be laughablem because Ashley was in a position to bring in the management structure and personnel of his own choice, so should be judged on his own decisions, not Shepherd's.

[mrmojorisin75]

Shall I start a new thread asking where we would be in the league now if we still had Shearer at the age of 28? It's equally (ir)relevant if you ask me.

 

Seriously, Ashley will be judged on his own merits. We all know we were on a downward slope with Shepherd, but at least he had proved in the past he could turn a football club around. If Mike Ashley gets us relegated, will people be using the starting demise under Shepherd as an excuse for Ashley's failing..? If so, that would be laughablem because Ashley was in a position to bring in the management structure and personnel of his own choice, so should be judged on his own decisions, not Shepherd's.

 

for your first question the answer is: if you want to, why not, some people might like to discuss it

 

but you're right imo, the demise under ashley isn't in any way attributable to FS or the old board, and i repeat IN ANY WAY

[Taylor Swift]

Shall I start a new thread asking where we would be in the league now if we still had Shearer at the age of 28? It's equally (ir)relevant if you ask me.

 

Seriously, Ashley will be judged on his own merits. We all know we were on a downward slope with Shepherd, but at least he had proved in the past he could turn a football club around. If Mike Ashley gets us relegated, will people be using the starting demise under Shepherd as an excuse for Ashley's failing..? If so, that would be laughablem because Ashley was in a position to bring in the management structure and personnel of his own choice, so should be judged on his own decisions, not Shepherd's.

 

Look, dude, how else do you judge whether someone's reign is successful or not? If you don't consider what would have happened otherwise, what are you comparing the actual scenario to? Would the Glazers' reign be successful if all they ever did was get Man Utd in the CL? Of course not, and that's because in the old regime, they won a fuckload of titles.

 

One of the key questions in the big board thread is whether people believe that Shepherd would have eventually got us back into the CL, and I have simply created a thread to explore this situation because the issue is important for reasons that I have already outlined and so that it doesn't get muddled up with the other issues in the other thread. This is important because it relates to what reasonable expectations we should have had for the Ashley regime and whether he's fulfilled some of those expectations, or not, as I believe many feel.

[Taylor Swift]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

[Kitman]

What's the point in talking about what Shepherd would have done with the club if Ashley hadn't bought the club?  Unfortunately he did.

[mrmojorisin75]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a FUCKING good manager to get us back to the CL imo

[madras]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the s*** that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big f***ing deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a f***ing good manager to get us back to the CL imo

to be fair i'm pretty sure the rooney bid was made public from the everton end.

[Guest The Libertine]

leeds.

[Unbelievable]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the s*** that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big f***ing deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

This is the gest of your point, and for me and many others it would be a f***ing big deal, because we feel that a club of our size and status deserves better than being mid table dross being overtaken by teams like Wigan and Hull. If Ashley bought the club with no real intent on moving it forward, then why does he deserve our support? Somebody else could have taken us over and genuinely moved us forward, such as now seems to be happening to a few clubs that we considered smaller and less succesful than us not so long ago, the likes of Aston Villa, Man City and Portsmouth.. In short, Ashley or whoever takes over from him needs to set their sights higher than continuing where Shepherd stopped. With Shepherd we had highs and lows, why should we just accept lows from his successor just because he left on a low?

[Fatwax]

To be fair if we ended up with a few seasons around the 8th-12th mark I wouldn't be too bothered as long as there were signs that the first team, academy and general setup were improving and being built upon. Anyone that's actually played football or has a clue about it will tell you that you can't just buy a load of quality players and watch them shoot you up the table, because it's a team game and it takes time for a team to truly gel an work together - this is helped by having a good manager as well.

 

The thing is though, irrespective of where we finish this season, there have definitely been no signs of improvement with possibly the exception of the academy. Last season we bought players to improve our very thin squad but also threw out some players that on their day could turn a game - these were replaced by workhorses, shit ones at that. We flirted with relegation, were unable to strengthen in January and managed to pull ourselves away from the drop zone thanks to Keegan and his ability to lift players.

 

This summer saw some improvements in certain areas again, but it seems to be the same story of selling players as well and not really building up a squad, oh yeah and Keegan left which fucked up our season royal. Now, if we'd have got in a better manager or hadn't have had some of the bad luck with injuries at times then we could possibly be out of the mire right now.. if you look at the points dropped and where we'd be if they hadn't have gone then we'd be looking pretty decent at the moment - but of course we did waste those points and they're gone for good.

 

I can't see us doing any better than 13th or so this season which is a step backwards. This club is a mess and I'm fucking sick of being pissed around at every level possible. There hasn't been any progress and this January should also tell us about Mike Ashley and how he feels with the club. If he invests in some players that'll help us that's brilliant, if not then he'll have done the impressive task of turning an entire city against him as I can't see us staying up with the current squad, bearing in mind it's Kinnear who's picking the first 11.

[NE5]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a FUCKING good manager to get us back to the CL imo

 

I see the smoggies have released their end of year accounts, and they are 93m quid in the red, and they haven't built a stadium like we have done, nor do they have our support. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Expect to see flak for Steve Gibson and warnings that the club may fold ?

 

 

[fredbob]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a FUCKING good manager to get us back to the CL imo

 

I see the smoggies have released their end of year accounts, and they are 93m quid in the red, and they haven't built a stadium like we have done, nor do they have our support. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Expect to see flak for Steve Gibson and warnings that the club may fold ?

 

 

 

To be fair, Middlesboroughs debts is being guaranteed by alot of Gibsons businesses and Gibson himself is putting personal money in, i wouldnt be surprised if that was the same with a alot of clubs in big debt, like Fulham and Wigan. Im pretty confident that (to Shepherds and Halls credit) that our club was financing itselfs and was holding the debt itself and not being gurantueed by Shepherd or Hall which made debt more of a  precarious issue. Like Leeds.

[Pilko]

What's the point in talking about what Shepherd would have done with the club if Ashley hadn't bought the club?  Unfortunately he did.

 

to give people another excuse to say how shit NE5 is

[NE5]

What's the point in talking about what Shepherd would have done with the club if Ashley hadn't bought the club?  Unfortunately he did.

 

to give people another excuse to say how shit NE5 is

 

or to give you another reason for - incorrectly - saying they did shit and we would be better off with someone/anyone else ?

 

But don't get personal and ruin the thread, whatever you do. This is just a reply to your comment, I hope you can be more constructive if you respond.

 

 

 

 

[NE5]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a FUCKING good manager to get us back to the CL imo

 

I see the smoggies have released their end of year accounts, and they are 93m quid in the red, and they haven't built a stadium like we have done, nor do they have our support. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Expect to see flak for Steve Gibson and warnings that the club may fold ?

 

 

 

To be fair, Middlesboroughs debts is being guaranteed by alot of Gibsons businesses and Gibson himself is putting personal money in, i wouldnt be surprised if that was the same with a alot of clubs in big debt, like Fulham and Wigan. Im pretty confident that (to Shepherds and Halls credit) that our club was financing itselfs and was holding the debt itself and not being gurantueed by Shepherd or Hall which made debt more of a  precarious issue. Like Leeds.

 

Is it ? I don't know. Good for him, he needs to. And seriously, a good friend of mine is a smoggie and he quite rightly thinks the world of Steve Gibson and rightly so, but they appreciate what he's done for them in comparison to where he found them.

 

Leeds made errors, everybody knows that, but we were not heading the way of Leeds.

 

 

[Liam Liam Liam O]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a FUCKING good manager to get us back to the CL imo

 

I see the smoggies have released their end of year accounts, and they are 93m quid in the red, and they haven't built a stadium like we have done, nor do they have our support. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Expect to see flak for Steve Gibson and warnings that the club may fold ?

 

 

 

Gibson finances Boro with his own money. 

[NE5]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a FUCKING good manager to get us back to the CL imo

 

I see the smoggies have released their end of year accounts, and they are 93m quid in the red, and they haven't built a stadium like we have done, nor do they have our support. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Expect to see flak for Steve Gibson and warnings that the club may fold ?

 

 

 

Gibson finances Boro with his own money. 

 

As I said, good for him. 93m quid is still 93m quid, and my mate also realises that if they are to do better he needs to sell though, and quite rightly says he hopes if the time ever comes, it isn't to someone like Mike Ashley.

 

 

[fredbob]

And no, no one is suggesting that relegation under Ashley will be excused by the shit that Shepherd left us with but if we remain in mid-table for the next few years and many people conclude that we would have done so anyway even if Shepherd had stayed, then what's the big fucking deal? If this is the case and I'm not saying it is, then our expectations with Ashley were high to begin with given the alternative scenario.

 

certain people really have forgotten, or never got at all, the feeling around supporting & watching the club from bobby leaving onwards, largely because of ashley

 

i haven't, i honestly believed we'd eventually get relegated under the old board, their ineptitude seemed to know no bounds after the robson appointment, in fact even during that when they were making the poor old fella look like a mug on the sky cameras with the rooney bid being released

 

the old board did some top stuff but people with memories know it was coming apart at the seams, with 100m+ of debt and the current credit crisis it would have taken a FUCKING good manager to get us back to the CL imo

 

I see the smoggies have released their end of year accounts, and they are 93m quid in the red, and they haven't built a stadium like we have done, nor do they have our support. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Expect to see flak for Steve Gibson and warnings that the club may fold ?

 

 

 

To be fair, Middlesboroughs debts is being guaranteed by alot of Gibsons businesses and Gibson himself is putting personal money in, i wouldnt be surprised if that was the same with a alot of clubs in big debt, like Fulham and Wigan. Im pretty confident that (to Shepherds and Halls credit) that our club was financing itselfs and was holding the debt itself and not being gurantueed by Shepherd or Hall which made debt more of a  precarious issue. Like Leeds.

 

Is it ? I don't know. Good for him, he needs to. And seriously, a good friend of mine is a smoggie and he quite rightly thinks the world of Steve Gibson and rightly so, but they appreciate what he's done for them in comparison to where he found them.

 

Leeds made errors, everybody knows that, but we were not heading the way of Leeds.

 

 

 

I suppose so, i suppose Shepherd et al are victims of the levels of expectations that they are enitirely responsible for raising, pretty ironic really. I still think that Shepeherd should live and die by his sword, Gibson hasnt reached the meteoric heights that Shepherd et al did let alone be in a position to capitalise on it, mark my words though, if he were to get to our standard and fall by the roadside like we did, the fans will soon forget and hang him to dry. And they'd be right to do so, unfortunately, its the way that the world works.