Llambias Q&A with Chronicle: OP updated with Thursday's articles

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I've had more spats and disagreements with NE5 over the years than I care to remember now spanning several forums the first of which was nufc.nu back in 2001-02 season I think and I can safely say he's a canny bloke whose views if you read carefully speak a great deal of value and truth and while I don't share his views on the old board and have considered a lot of those views as wrong (in my eyes mind) at the end of the day you have to remember and this goes for all the views represented on here these views stem from a great deal of emotion as much as anything else and it is that which maybe needs to be considered. In short it is no surprise NE5 defends the old lot so much because for him they fulfilled their obligations and delivered and no-one likes to dwell on the downsides or bad things in among the better things and this view is shared across the opinion spectrum from views on KK to Mike Ashley to the players, past and present. Some fans love Bellamy and wouldn't hear a bad word said against him because they were there that night in Rotterdam, likewise some can't stand him. It is mainly all driven by emotion more than anything else - our views. I've since accepted that so when I read NE5 defending the old board in his unique style today I don't get all angry and want to say "whoa, hold on there, that's not right" like I used to, I just see a long-time NUFC supporter defending what he knows best or rather feels is best and I'm now seeing that with the views on Ashley too.

[TRon]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

 

do you feel you can draw a fair comparison at this point? given that ashley has only had the club for a small fraction of time compared to the last lot? the challenges he faces are different to the ones they faced when taking over, wouldnt you say?

 

Aye, Ashley is in a far better position.

 

In some ways and in other ways not.

 

The club is in far superior position now than it was in the early 90's.

 

It's true that there are loads of things that are better about the club and the situation it finds itself in now than in the early 90s:

 

Bigger, better SJP; better league position; better squad; higher profile; larger crowds; more TV money; more revenue full-stop; improved training facilities; and so-on.

 

However there are a number of things about the club and the current situation that are worse:

 

Bigger debt; higher supporter expectations (therefore increased demand for success, less patience, etc); huge wage bill; players are much more powerful when it comes to contracts, etc meaning it is harder to get rid of players you don't want and bring in players you do; hugely inflated transfer fees and player wages; bigger, stronger opposition, some with money's-no-object budgets; much less room for improvement, especially relative improvement compared to other Premiership clubs; the global "Credit Crunch"; a somewhat tarnished reputation; less obvious ways of improving things, and so-on.

 

So, I don't think it's true that Ashley's in a far better position, some things are better, others are worse, which is easier or more difficult is hard to judge, the problems are different, but there are still problems.

 

not a single thing is worse than in 1991. Nothing.

 

 

 

Would you like offer some evidence or arguments to refute the points I made then? Because without that your statement has no validity.

 

you've listed all the improvements yourself !

 

What else is there ?

 

You can't call expectations and the other things you have listed as "worse" when they are all by-products of the huge improvements and comparative success ?

 

The only thing I would pick out is "tarnished repuation", but to be honest, even that is nowhere near the appalling standing the club had in 1991.

 

 

 

I asked you about the problems not the improvements, so will you address the ones I've highlighted below, please:

 

However there are a number of things about the club and the current situation that are worse:

 

Bigger debt; higher supporter expectations (therefore increased demand for success, less patience, etc); huge wage bill; players are much more powerful when it comes to contracts, etc meaning it is harder to get rid of players you don't want and bring in players you do; hugely inflated transfer fees and player wages; bigger, stronger opposition, some with money's-no-object budgets; much less room for improvement, especially relative improvement compared to other Premiership clubs; the global "Credit Crunch"; a somewhat tarnished reputation; less obvious ways of improving things, and so-on.

 

I don't get you, as I said, most of them are by products of being more successul.

 

Players being more powerful is a football problem, including transfer fees and wages. Do you think differently ?

 

 

 

But as a football club, football's problems are our problems, are they not?

 

When the Halls and Shepherd took over they had to deal with the external conditions also. Ashley did not take over a perfect club in a perfect market, did he. Therefore there were problems and issues that needed (and still need) to be dealt with, something you seem to be denying. As I said, the problems may not be the same, but there are still problems. To deny that is to deny the obvious and it only takes away from the valid points of your argument.

 

I'm not denying anything. I can't see how you think we or anybody can address bigger issue football wide problems, unless you are advocating a maverick approach, and who is going to do that and run the risk of abject failure, because you must realise that if the big clubs adopt a hard line approach to wages, contracts, etc, the player will just go somewhere else.

 

To slightly move this debate further, I don't know if it is possible to do anything about this, but in the UK at least, nothing would happen without the PFA urging its big hitters to exercise restraint - what I have in mind here is a wage cap of sorts where they would agree to donate money into a pool to look after football[ers] and therefore clubs further down the ladders ?

 

Can't see it happening personally though.

 

 

 

BUMP

 

I answered him. Again

 

 

Does he agree or not, and why

 

You're right that we as an individual club cannot change the market conditions, but we do need to come up with a strategy to survive, if not thrive, within them, we cannot ignore them as we have tried to in the past, it won't work and we'll end up in serious financial trouble, we are pretty close to that at the moment in my view. I think that given where we find ourselves at present, both financially and in terms of the squad of players we have at the club, we need to have realistic expectations of where we go from here and how long that's going to take.

 

I don't know if you agree, but I do not think that it is possible for us to make the jump from here to be challenging for honours, in one go, instead it will take a number of steps. You're right that the previous board were ambitious and they did manage to take us to the verge of being a successful club on a couple of occasions. However, a number of mistakes were made and a number of misfortunes befell the club and the combination of those set us back. Attempts were made to address this, but for various reasons those attempts failed to have a lasting effect and therefore we suffered the costs - particularly financially, but also in other ways - of those attempts, but did not reap the benefits. This went on for a number of years and sometimes we made a little progress and sometimes we didn't, but the net result was that we fell behind the group of clubs that are regularly challenging for honours.

 

At some point between the present day and Robson's time the distance between us and the "big four" (for want of a better expression) became too large for us to address in one go. However our approach to trying to solve this did not change and we continued trying to do it by buying a couple of very expensive big-name players every once in a while, whilst neglecting a number of less glamorous areas that needed addressing. You can't win things and be consistently successful by adding one or two "mega-stars" to a dog-shit squad and each time you neglect improving the overall squad to finance the purchase of these players it becomes weaker and weaker, thereby making the likelihood of the tactic actually paying off, less and less.

 

At the same time, our desperation to make that leap lead to the proportion of our transfer expenditure that we allocated to individual signings increasing dramatically, to the extent that we spend a club record fee on Michael Owen, when the money would have been much better spent on a number of "lesser" players filling the gaps in our squad that we so desperately needed to address. Also, if you add someone who's on huge wages to a squad then you end up paying everyone else more money too, as they see what the star is on and expect some of that too. In the end, you're paying extortionate money to shite players you can't get rid of because no-one else is stupid enough to offer them the same. Year after year, we have been paying out Champions' League transfer-fees and wages and have had a mid-table team on the pitch and the results, and therefore the income, to go with it. This is a situation that cannot go on indefinitely, as in a similar way to what I have said above regarding the squad, every year we reach financially for the Champions' League and fail to get there the gap between where we are and where we're trying to get to widens.

 

I think Shepherd recognised this himself at various points. When under Robson we made the qualifying stages of the Champions' League, he made the - not unreasonable - assumption that we had a squad good enough to qualify and chose not to spend any money to improve it, only bringing in Bowyer on a free. I think he knew that sometimes when you achieve a higher level you need to take a bit of a breather, replenish your reserves and pay back some of what it cost you to get there. Unfortunately for him - and us - that turned out to be a mistake, a costly mistake from which we've never truly recovered. Ever since that, the general trend for NUFC has been downward and the financial state of the club has suffered accordingly, subsequently the challenge of bridging the gap has become harder and harder. This problem was exacerbated because, either through his own limited ability to come up with alternative approaches or a fear of fans' reaction should he fail to deliver a glamour signing, Fred's preferred tactic remained largely unchanged. His weakness for a big-name signing meant that, that was his favoured option, both in good times or bad, whether it was the right thing for the club or not and regardless of whether we could really afford it. He threw good money after bad and we ended up in the dire financial situation we find ourselves now.

 

There comes a point both financially and in terms of the playing squad, when we have to realise that the gap is just too wide to jump and instead we need to aim to go part of the way, establish ourselves there and then attempt to bridge the remaining distance. We need to be aiming to build a squad capable of consistently finishing in the top half of the Premiership and challenging for a UEFA Cup place, then once we've done that we can start thinking about the Champions' League and perhaps winning things. Oh, and we need to make sure that we don't screw ourselves financially doing so. If we go out and buy a couple of Champions' League players to play with the rest of our bottom-half of the league squad then it's not going to work and we'll have wasted the Champions' League transfer fees and wages we'd have paid-out for the honour and all. We're not ready for Champions' League players yet, we need UEFA cup players and top-half of the Premiership players at the moment. As much as people will hate to admit it and undoubtedly I'll get shit for saying this, but it's the truth and although sometimes the truth hurts; it's still the truth.

 

Far too many people seem to want us to go straight from where we are to the Champions' League in one fell swoop, well it ain't going to happen like that and if we keep kidding ourselves it is, then it'll never happen. When Ashley talks about the direction he wants to take the club, he seems to understand this, at least that's what I understand by the comparison to Villa, etc. Whether he's capable of pulling it off is another matter, but I'm willing to give him a while longer to find out. I never expected that there wouldn't be complications or teething troubles to start off with. I didn't expect them to be as big as they've turned out to be, but I don't think anyone really knew just how much of a financial mess the previous board had left behind and the credit crunch doesn't help matters either. I hope that Ashley hasn't made a Shepherd-esque error by assuming that we won't go down this season, in the same way that Fred assumed we'd reach the Champions' League. I honestly don't think we will, but I'm pretty sure I thought we'd beat Partizan at the time, too.

 

Basically, we need to establish ourselves nearer to the top of the Premiership, walk before we can run, or whatever. If we continue to aim too high, we'll end up falling on our arse...

 

 

 

 

...again!

 

Top post indi, a very good account of what's happened at Newcastle if you read it without personal agendas. Very valid point about Shepherd not spending money after qualifying for the Champions League as well. Shepherd had already spent that money and he'd made a point of saying it earlier. I never did understand the criticism he got for reigning in the spending every couple of years. There isn't a bottomless pit of money unless the success follows investment.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Anyway for me it is this simple:

 

Appoint a good manager and back that manager (within reason)

 

If he's any good market conditions will take care of themselves as will planning and all that stuff.

 

That's what MA needs to do appoint a good manager and do what FS did and back that man with money. Not big money, just be competitive which under him we haven't been with most clubs outspending us, clubs in far worse positions financially, clubs with smaller stadiums, less potential and with more to lose.

 

If Ashley doesn't do that all the youth investment and tight financial control will be in vain because for as long as we do not have a good manager that has money to spend, money he is in full control of, then there is only one place we are going and that's down, either down the table or down a division. Be it Kinnear or some other mug. Be it this season or next season that is going to be the reality for Newcastle United under Ashley unless he does away with these plans of his and that system and manager he has mismanaging almost every aspect of the club.

 

Do it and he might just turn this club around on both fronts, the field and financially for without the former the latter will simply not happen, in fact it will only get worse as he will find out when those renewal forms drop through our letter boxes.

 

 

[Dave]

Good post Indi, the only thing I'd say is that I don't think very many at all expect us to make the jump to challenging for Champions League spots any time soon. There's a massive difference between wanting to ensure our Premier League status and expecting to compete for the top four. I think it's a pretty flimsy straw man tbh, just the same as people saying those who don't trust Ashley will only be satisfied with a multi-billionaire willing to splash out hundreds of millions like Man City.

[indi]

Get back in your own thread NE5.

 

nowt to say then ?

 

 

Just joking man, I'm pretty bored, we all know spending money improves your chances of doing well, but it's not a given, you need the right manager, the right scouts and the right amount of money but you can do well without spending massive amount if you have the right manager e.g. Moyes and Everton.

 

on the other hand, if you are lucky enough to get a decent manager, and it IS a lottery, and don't back him, he'll be off. Like Moyes, unless Everton are taken over or it all suddenly goes tits up for him.

 

When you say "do well", how well do YOU want to do ?

 

 

 

It's a lottery getting a good manager?

 

No it's a skill, not an easy one but it is definately a skill.

 

is it now ?

 

We'll see how easily Arsenal replace Wenger and ManU replace Ferguson.

 

Or Everton replace Moyes ..........

 

 

 

Even a "good manager" isn't necessarily the "right manager", which I suppose adds credence to NE5's "lottery" theory.

 

Bit simplistic on the whole though, as usual.

 

you mean "realistic", as usual. Which also, as usual, too many people fail to grasp.

 

 

were you happy with the kinnear appointment ?

 

hey getting a good manager is a lottery right,surely theres as much chance getting a s*** one to turn out good results as there is a good one turning out bad to your thinking or maybe you are piffling again in anattempt to detect any criticism from the your beloved fred ?

 

(conversly it must work with players aswell...shevchenko,veron,woodgate at real,keane at liverpool......good players who didn't do it so surely it means it's pointless spending big as these players prove it works)

 

 

i'll stop you in your tracks........."back your manager"............what with ? where was the money going to come from......at this point you mention the debt of others and as always i mention the debt of the top 4 is different to ours as they are making money aside from those with sugar daddies where as we have consistently made losses (not a good scenario when begging to the banks with few assets left to hock). look at the other clubs who,like us have lived beyond their means,they are all cutting right back and ask yourself what liverpools or arsenals spending would be like if they missed out on the champs league for 3 or 4 years ?

 

often on here you have alluded to others having thir heads in the sand but it is clear the one one doing an ostrich is yourself in relation to the position fred left us in.

 

silly.

 

Especially when there are still people hell bent on defending Ashley to the bitter end, and I mean bitter end = relegation and with little chance of coming back.

 

Pleased for you that you still appear to write off all those european qualifications and champions league appearances and the manner in which they were achieved.

 

Still, nobody is "embarrassing us" any more, right ?

 

 

BORING !

 

we've covered the euro qualifications to death as that has little to do with the position we were in spring 2007.

 

defending ashley to the bitter end......like you defending fred ?

 

i never mentioned being embarassed by fred's utterences.

 

 

nice to see you keep your head in the sand re our position when fred left.

 

you mentioned Shepherd, not me, with a silly childish comment.

 

Yep, I will "defend" anybody who gave me the only 15 years out of 45 that tried to compete at the levels this club should always compete at, and thus gave me the best most consistent and highest league positions as a result.  As I've said before. 

 

 

 

Then you should be happy that your season ticket money is going towards paying the bills he racked up in the process.

 

The alternative is of course, only supporting the club when they are winning, as you did when the Halls and Shepherd took over [if you even did that]

 

 

Was that the Hall/Shepherd era where we were nearly relegated from the 1st division? Or the Hall/Shepherd era where we were finishing 13th in the league despite the big spending?

 

nah, the Hall/Shepherd who took over a club days from bankruptcy, getting 15000 gates and couldn't be sold for 1.25m quid, that became a club filling a 52000 all seater stadium, playing in the champions league, qualifying for europe more than anybody but 4 clubs, and was valued at anything between 100m and 200m quid.

 

I am sorry you feel the need to scorn the big spending that did all of that, what a shame you would have preferred solvency and 2nd division obscurity instead of beating Barcelona and playing in the San Siro.

 

 

 

You really are one blinkered old man aren't you. Who said I didn't appreciate the wonderful football we have experienced, but you paint the Hall/Shepherd days with such rose-tinted spectacles. You fail to see what it has cost this club to get these things. You know I wouldn't prefer to be in the 2nd division, but a happy medium of the club not being whored out to pay for the fabulous football we saw would have been nice, do you not think? As for the £100-£200 million quid. Are you happy that Sir John Hall and Fred Shepherd pocketed over £180 million between them when this club was sold, especially since Sir John Hall stood on the steps of St James when he first bought the club and stated he wasn't in it for the money! YEAH RIGHT!

 

oh dear. Resorting to insults. How old are you ? I'm not old you daft bugger, and I'm in good health too. If you don't want to listen to others who have seen things [without meaning to sound patronising] then you really do have a serious problem, and are talking like a naive teenager.

 

I don't believe you saw the mediocrity of the 1970's and 1980's if you think the souness, Roeder and Allardyce league positions were mediocre league positions.

 

Sorry like, but I don't. I believed you at first but your own comments have gave me the impression I now have.

 

I have no idea what makes you think I am happy with money going out of the club. All I have said is that the Halls and Shepherd are by far the best owners we have had in 50 years, in fact, the ONLY good owners in that time. To that extent, they deserved something, for the job they did and the initial risks they took, taking over the club in the state it was in.

 

And don't compare the state of the club in 1991 to now, because believe me, it was miles apart.

 

 

 

but we're in the same league position now as we were when shepherd left, so its not the league positions you care about? but how much money we spend? seems weird.

 

I don't ever remember us being in such a relegation scrap under Shepherd's tenure though.

 

point taken, but remember we're always only one or two results away from being out of it (just as much as the opposite is true i understand). but to criticise ashley on current league position while stating that the souness roeder allardyce finishes were not mediocre is hypocritical, whereas to criticise ashley on financial grounds is at best naive and at worst a blatant agenda.

 

I really don't know how many times this has to be said. A board that backs their manager and shows ambition will always be better than one who choose not to.

 

 

i agree, however i feel thats over simplifying the issue somewhat, dont you? in light of the clubs current financial status?

 

You mean seeing 2 of our best players, one of whom has been a fabric of the club and couldn't wait to get away, and our captain to follow soon, is over-simplifying ? I don't think so. In fact, its frightening.

 

 

 

no thats not what i mean because thats not what i said. i dont really think thats relevant to backing the manager? as it opens a whole load of other issues regarding whether jfk wanted given and n'zogbia to stay, what the club did to keep them etc, so lets not side track. i agree with you that boards should back their managers financially, but given the clubs finances at present, how should the board be providing more than they currently are?

 

I'm not sure either, but maybe Shay Given could shed some light on it ? As well as Keegan and Owen ? Don't you find their actions tell you something ?

 

 

i reckon they'd tell you they left cos the club aint going to be challenging anytime soon (and i would say it it was down to the financial mess we are in)

 

you would say we should have kept on borrowing to keep these players ,cross your fingers and hope we find success before the banks say "no" or "err can we have our money back please"

 

I understand what you and the others are saying. You wish we hadnt' played in the Champions League rather than aim for a relegation and solvency, and you think every club except us is successful, always appoint the right man, and make profits at the same time

 

 

oh we know that trick,the one where you try to make out someone said something they didn't.

 

 

what i am saying (and you well know it) is that after dropping out the champs league you can gamble a bit to get back in,but if you fail and you keep on gambling and failing.....you end up like all other gamblers who fail.

 

still awaiting your answer by the way of where the money would come from year on year when making losses year on year and do you understand that you can't keep borrowing for ever.

 

Simple difference is, I don't believe Ashley has a clue about football, or how to succeed, nor the desire to do what it takes even if this belief is incorrect. Whereas I have no doubt whatsoever that the Halls and Shepherd would have re-grouped and had another go, and probably had some success too.

 

 

do you feel you can draw a fair comparison at this point? given that ashley has only had the club for a small fraction of time compared to the last lot? the challenges he faces are different to the ones they faced when taking over, wouldnt you say?

 

Aye, Ashley is in a far better position.

 

In some ways and in other ways not.

 

The club is in far superior position now than it was in the early 90's.

 

It's true that there are loads of things that are better about the club and the situation it finds itself in now than in the early 90s:

 

Bigger, better SJP; better league position; better squad; higher profile; larger crowds; more TV money; more revenue full-stop; improved training facilities; and so-on.

 

However there are a number of things about the club and the current situation that are worse:

 

Bigger debt; higher supporter expectations (therefore increased demand for success, less patience, etc); huge wage bill; players are much more powerful when it comes to contracts, etc meaning it is harder to get rid of players you don't want and bring in players you do; hugely inflated transfer fees and player wages; bigger, stronger opposition, some with money's-no-object budgets; much less room for improvement, especially relative improvement compared to other Premiership clubs; the global "Credit Crunch"; a somewhat tarnished reputation; less obvious ways of improving things, and so-on.

 

So, I don't think it's true that Ashley's in a far better position, some things are better, others are worse, which is easier or more difficult is hard to judge, the problems are different, but there are still problems.

 

not a single thing is worse than in 1991. Nothing.

 

 

 

Would you like offer some evidence or arguments to refute the points I made then? Because without that your statement has no validity.

 

you've listed all the improvements yourself !

 

What else is there ?

 

You can't call expectations and the other things you have listed as "worse" when they are all by-products of the huge improvements and comparative success ?

 

The only thing I would pick out is "tarnished repuation", but to be honest, even that is nowhere near the appalling standing the club had in 1991.

 

 

 

I asked you about the problems not the improvements, so will you address the ones I've highlighted below, please:

 

However there are a number of things about the club and the current situation that are worse:

 

Bigger debt; higher supporter expectations (therefore increased demand for success, less patience, etc); huge wage bill; players are much more powerful when it comes to contracts, etc meaning it is harder to get rid of players you don't want and bring in players you do; hugely inflated transfer fees and player wages; bigger, stronger opposition, some with money's-no-object budgets; much less room for improvement, especially relative improvement compared to other Premiership clubs; the global "Credit Crunch"; a somewhat tarnished reputation; less obvious ways of improving things, and so-on.

 

I don't get you, as I said, most of them are by products of being more successul.

 

Players being more powerful is a football problem, including transfer fees and wages. Do you think differently ?

 

 

 

But as a football club, football's problems are our problems, are they not?

 

When the Halls and Shepherd took over they had to deal with the external conditions also. Ashley did not take over a perfect club in a perfect market, did he. Therefore there were problems and issues that needed (and still need) to be dealt with, something you seem to be denying. As I said, the problems may not be the same, but there are still problems. To deny that is to deny the obvious and it only takes away from the valid points of your argument.

 

I'm not denying anything. I can't see how you think we or anybody can address bigger issue football wide problems, unless you are advocating a maverick approach, and who is going to do that and run the risk of abject failure, because you must realise that if the big clubs adopt a hard line approach to wages, contracts, etc, the player will just go somewhere else.

 

To slightly move this debate further, I don't know if it is possible to do anything about this, but in the UK at least, nothing would happen without the PFA urging its big hitters to exercise restraint - what I have in mind here is a wage cap of sorts where they would agree to donate money into a pool to look after football[ers] and therefore clubs further down the ladders ?

 

Can't see it happening personally though.

 

 

 

BUMP

 

I answered him. Again

 

 

Does he agree or not, and why

 

You're right that we as an individual club cannot change the market conditions, but we do need to come up with a strategy to survive, if not thrive, within them, we cannot ignore them as we have tried to in the past, it won't work and we'll end up in serious financial trouble, we are pretty close to that at the moment in my view. I think that given where we find ourselves at present, both financially and in terms of the squad of players we have at the club, we need to have realistic expectations of where we go from here and how long that's going to take.

 

I don't know if you agree, but I do not think that it is possible for us to make the jump from here to be challenging for honours, in one go, instead it will take a number of steps. You're right that the previous board were ambitious and they did manage to take us to the verge of being a successful club on a couple of occasions. However, a number of mistakes were made and a number of misfortunes befell the club and the combination of those set us back. Attempts were made to address this, but for various reasons those attempts failed to have a lasting effect and therefore we suffered the costs - particularly financially, but also in other ways - of those attempts, but did not reap the benefits. This went on for a number of years and sometimes we made a little progress and sometimes we didn't, but the net result was that we fell behind the group of clubs that are regularly challenging for honours.

 

At some point between the present day and Robson's time the distance between us and the "big four" (for want of a better expression) became too large for us to address in one go. However our approach to trying to solve this did not change and we continued trying to do it by buying a couple of very expensive big-name players every once in a while, whilst neglecting a number of less glamorous areas that needed addressing. You can't win things and be consistently successful by adding one or two "mega-stars" to a dog-shit squad and each time you neglect improving the overall squad to finance the purchase of these players it becomes weaker and weaker, thereby making the likelihood of the tactic actually paying off, less and less.

 

At the same time, our desperation to make that leap lead to the proportion of our transfer expenditure that we allocated to individual signings increasing dramatically, to the extent that we spend a club record fee on Michael Owen, when the money would have been much better spent on a number of "lesser" players filling the gaps in our squad that we so desperately needed to address. Also, if you add someone who's on huge wages to a squad then you end up paying everyone else more money too, as they see what the star is on and expect some of that too. In the end, you're paying extortionate money to shite players you can't get rid of because no-one else is stupid enough to offer them the same. Year after year, we have been paying out Champions' League transfer-fees and wages and have had a mid-table team on the pitch and the results, and therefore the income, to go with it. This is a situation that cannot go on indefinitely, as in a similar way to what I have said above regarding the squad, every year we reach financially for the Champions' League and fail to get there the gap between where we are and where we're trying to get to widens.

 

I think Shepherd recognised this himself at various points. When under Robson we made the qualifying stages of the Champions' League, he made the - not unreasonable - assumption that we had a squad good enough to qualify and chose not to spend any money to improve it, only bringing in Bowyer on a free. I think he knew that sometimes when you achieve a higher level you need to take a bit of a breather, replenish your reserves and pay back some of what it cost you to get there. Unfortunately for him - and us - that turned out to be a mistake, a costly mistake from which we've never truly recovered. Ever since that, the general trend for NUFC has been downward and the financial state of the club has suffered accordingly, subsequently the challenge of bridging the gap has become harder and harder. This problem was exacerbated because, either through his own limited ability to come up with alternative approaches or a fear of fans' reaction should he fail to deliver a glamour signing, Fred's preferred tactic remained largely unchanged. His weakness for a big-name signing meant that, that was his favoured option, both in good times or bad, whether it was the right thing for the club or not and regardless of whether we could really afford it. He threw good money after bad and we ended up in the dire financial situation we find ourselves now.

 

There comes a point both financially and in terms of the playing squad, when we have to realise that the gap is just too wide to jump and instead we need to aim to go part of the way, establish ourselves there and then attempt to bridge the remaining distance. We need to be aiming to build a squad capable of consistently finishing in the top half of the Premiership and challenging for a UEFA Cup place, then once we've done that we can start thinking about the Champions' League and perhaps winning things. Oh, and we need to make sure that we don't screw ourselves financially doing so. If we go out and buy a couple of Champions' League players to play with the rest of our bottom-half of the league squad then it's not going to work and we'll have wasted the Champions' League transfer fees and wages we'd have paid-out for the honour and all. We're not ready for Champions' League players yet, we need UEFA cup players and top-half of the Premiership players at the moment. As much as people will hate to admit it and undoubtedly I'll get shit for saying this, but it's the truth and although sometimes the truth hurts; it's still the truth.

 

Far too many people seem to want us to go straight from where we are to the Champions' League in one fell swoop, well it ain't going to happen like that and if we keep kidding ourselves it is, then it'll never happen. When Ashley talks about the direction he wants to take the club, he seems to understand this, at least that's what I understand by the comparison to Villa, etc. Whether he's capable of pulling it off is another matter, but I'm willing to give him a while longer to find out. I never expected that there wouldn't be complications or teething troubles to start off with. I didn't expect them to be as big as they've turned out to be, but I don't think anyone really knew just how much of a financial mess the previous board had left behind and the credit crunch doesn't help matters either. I hope that Ashley hasn't made a Shepherd-esque error by assuming that we won't go down this season, in the same way that Fred assumed we'd reach the Champions' League. I honestly don't think we will, but I'm pretty sure I thought we'd beat Partizan at the time, too.

 

Basically, we need to establish ourselves nearer to the top of the Premiership, walk before we can run, or whatever. If we continue to aim too high, we'll end up falling on our arse...

 

 

 

 

...again!

 

I was scrolling up from the bottom of the page and could have sweared that was an HTT post!

 

I know! I've had that reply going most of the night and have gone away and come back to it loads of times to write little bits, I have no idea if it all flows together or not and I'm not even sure I actually addressed NE5's point or whatever, as I haven't actually read it through from start to finish. If it doesn't I'm sure he'll let me know anyway.

[Mick]

 

You're right that we as an individual club cannot change the market conditions, but we do need to come up with a strategy to survive, if not thrive, within them, we cannot ignore them as we have tried to in the past, it won't work and we'll end up in serious financial trouble, we are pretty close to that at the moment in my view. I think that given where we find ourselves at present, both financially and in terms of the squad of players we have at the club, we need to have realistic expectations of where we go from here and how long that's going to take.

 

I don't know if you agree, but I do not think that it is possible for us to make the jump from here to be challenging for honours, in one go, instead it will take a number of steps. You're right that the previous board were ambitious and they did manage to take us to the verge of being a successful club on a couple of occasions. However, a number of mistakes were made and a number of misfortunes befell the club and the combination of those set us back. Attempts were made to address this, but for various reasons those attempts failed to have a lasting effect and therefore we suffered the costs - particularly financially, but also in other ways - of those attempts, but did not reap the benefits. This went on for a number of years and sometimes we made a little progress and sometimes we didn't, but the net result was that we fell behind the group of clubs that are regularly challenging for honours.

 

At some point between the present day and Robson's time the distance between us and the "big four" (for want of a better expression) became too large for us to address in one go. However our approach to trying to solve this did not change and we continued trying to do it by buying a couple of very expensive big-name players every once in a while, whilst neglecting a number of less glamorous areas that needed addressing. You can't win things and be consistently successful by adding one or two "mega-stars" to a dog-s*** squad and each time you neglect improving the overall squad to finance the purchase of these players it becomes weaker and weaker, thereby making the likelihood of the tactic actually paying off, less and less.

 

At the same time, our desperation to make that leap lead to the proportion of our transfer expenditure that we allocated to individual signings increasing dramatically, to the extent that we spend a club record fee on Michael Owen, when the money would have been much better spent on a number of "lesser" players filling the gaps in our squad that we so desperately needed to address. Also, if you add someone who's on huge wages to a squad then you end up paying everyone else more money too, as they see what the star is on and expect some of that too. In the end, you're paying extortionate money to s**** players you can't get rid of because no-one else is stupid enough to offer them the same. Year after year, we have been paying out Champions' League transfer-fees and wages and have had a mid-table team on the pitch and the results, and therefore the income, to go with it. This is a situation that cannot go on indefinitely, as in a similar way to what I have said above regarding the squad, every year we reach financially for the Champions' League and fail to get there the gap between where we are and where we're trying to get to widens.

 

I think Shepherd recognised this himself at various points. When under Robson we made the qualifying stages of the Champions' League, he made the - not unreasonable - assumption that we had a squad good enough to qualify and chose not to spend any money to improve it, only bringing in Bowyer on a free. I think he knew that sometimes when you achieve a higher level you need to take a bit of a breather, replenish your reserves and pay back some of what it cost you to get there. Unfortunately for him - and us - that turned out to be a mistake, a costly mistake from which we've never truly recovered. Ever since that, the general trend for NUFC has been downward and the financial state of the club has suffered accordingly, subsequently the challenge of bridging the gap has become harder and harder. This problem was exacerbated because, either through his own limited ability to come up with alternative approaches or a fear of fans' reaction should he fail to deliver a glamour signing, Fred's preferred tactic remained largely unchanged. His weakness for a big-name signing meant that, that was his favoured option, both in good times or bad, whether it was the right thing for the club or not and regardless of whether we could really afford it. He threw good money after bad and we ended up in the dire financial situation we find ourselves now.

 

There comes a point both financially and in terms of the playing squad, when we have to realise that the gap is just too wide to jump and instead we need to aim to go part of the way, establish ourselves there and then attempt to bridge the remaining distance. We need to be aiming to build a squad capable of consistently finishing in the top half of the Premiership and challenging for a UEFA Cup place, then once we've done that we can start thinking about the Champions' League and perhaps winning things. Oh, and we need to make sure that we don't screw ourselves financially doing so. If we go out and buy a couple of Champions' League players to play with the rest of our bottom-half of the league squad then it's not going to work and we'll have wasted the Champions' League transfer fees and wages we'd have paid-out for the honour and all. We're not ready for Champions' League players yet, we need UEFA cup players and top-half of the Premiership players at the moment. As much as people will hate to admit it and undoubtedly I'll get s*** for saying this, but it's the truth and although sometimes the truth hurts; it's still the truth.

 

Far too many people seem to want us to go straight from where we are to the Champions' League in one fell swoop, well it ain't going to happen like that and if we keep kidding ourselves it is, then it'll never happen. When Ashley talks about the direction he wants to take the club, he seems to understand this, at least that's what I understand by the comparison to Villa, etc. Whether he's capable of pulling it off is another matter, but I'm willing to give him a while longer to find out. I never expected that there wouldn't be complications or teething troubles to start off with. I didn't expect them to be as big as they've turned out to be, but I don't think anyone really knew just how much of a financial mess the previous board had left behind and the credit crunch doesn't help matters either. I hope that Ashley hasn't made a Shepherd-esque error by assuming that we won't go down this season, in the same way that Fred assumed we'd reach the Champions' League. I honestly don't think we will, but I'm pretty sure I thought we'd beat Partizan at the time, too.

 

Basically, we need to establish ourselves nearer to the top of the Premiership, walk before we can run, or whatever. If we continue to aim too high, we'll end up falling on our arse...

 

 

 

 

...again!

 

[indi]

Good post Indi, the only thing I'd say is that I don't think very many at all expect us to make the jump to challenging for Champions League spots any time soon. There's a massive difference between wanting to ensure our Premier League status and expecting to compete for the top four. I think it's a pretty flimsy straw man tbh, just the same as people saying those who don't trust Ashley will only be satisfied with a multi-billionaire willing to splash out hundreds of millions like Man City.

 

Okay, fair enough, I didn't really explain what I meant by that very well. It's true that at present very few people hold that belief, but if we have a better time in the summer transfer window and make a decent start to next season, it won't take long for a lot of people to start talking like that. Expectations change very quickly amongst football fans and us lot especially, it's not that surprising that people are desperate for success and want the club to push on for it at a breakneck speed given our history, but it's also not very realistic.

 

Is that a better way of me saying it?

[indi]

I also totally forgot to say that I think we'll learn a lot more about where the club is heading by the end of the summer, perhaps after that I'll have changed my mind, or perhaps other people will have, who knows?

[Parky]

We're gonna end up like Sports Direct. Cheap and cheerful tat hiding behind an esteemed but slipping brand-name.

[Dave]

I also totally forgot to say that I think we'll learn a lot more about where the club is heading by the end of the summer, perhaps after that I'll have changed my mind, or perhaps other people will have, who knows?

 

I sincerely hope they prove all of the doubters* wrong this summer. That starts with getting a good manager in who can and will work within this stupid fucking system if they're adamant it's here to stay. A good manager is not Joe Kinnear.

 

*I say that knowing full well there are those who will never be convinced, and don't appear to want to be.

[Robster]

I also totally forgot to say that I think we'll learn a lot more about where the club is heading by the end of the summer, perhaps after that I'll have changed my mind, or perhaps other people will have, who knows?

 

I sincerely hope they prove all of the doubters* wrong this summer. That starts with getting a good manager in who can and will work within this stupid fucking system if they're adamant it's here to stay. A good manager is not Joe Kinnear.

 

*I say that knowing full well there are those who will never be convinced, and don't appear to want to be.

He would convince me tonight by going for Martinez.

Thats maybe being simplistic and being swayed by current public opinion but it would be a decision that shows some intent to progress... for me anyway

[Thespence]

Hopefully in the summer the first team will be boosted in numbers & freshened up with the likes of Viduka, Owen & a few others who have hung around the club for a while going nowhere getting moved on or contracts not renewed. Getting L.Blanc in as coach would also make me very happy.

 

There long term plan of signing young youth internationals could turn out to be great. There is no doubt a few of these lads will fail to make the grade but as the club is at a stage were it cant compete signing the best youngsters then it has to  be smarter than the other clubs. I don't think Wise is the man for this gig but as he is in place lets hope he goes on to prove most of us wrong & he can sit with European Football elite DOF:Foschi, Munchi & Lacombe

[Dave]

I also totally forgot to say that I think we'll learn a lot more about where the club is heading by the end of the summer, perhaps after that I'll have changed my mind, or perhaps other people will have, who knows?

 

I sincerely hope they prove all of the doubters* wrong this summer. That starts with getting a good manager in who can and will work within this stupid fucking system if they're adamant it's here to stay. A good manager is not Joe Kinnear.

 

*I say that knowing full well there are those who will never be convinced, and don't appear to want to be.

He would convince me tonight by going for Martinez.

Thats maybe being simplistic and being swayed by current public opinion but it would be a decision that shows some intent to progress... for me anyway

 

Agreed. I'm not totally sure about him as there's every chance he's a bit 'flavour of the month' but it would show ambition for the future by employing a young manager whose stock is rising rapidly and whose team play free-flowing attacking football from the little I've seen and heard. He'd be desperate to prove himself as a top-level manager as soon as possible and I still believe he would come here.

[Liam Liam Liam O]

I also totally forgot to say that I think we'll learn a lot more about where the club is heading by the end of the summer, perhaps after that I'll have changed my mind, or perhaps other people will have, who knows?

 

I sincerely hope they prove all of the doubters* wrong this summer. That starts with getting a good manager in who can and will work within this stupid fucking system if they're adamant it's here to stay. A good manager is not Joe Kinnear.

 

*I say that knowing full well there are those who will never be convinced, and don't appear to want to be.

He would convince me tonight by going for Martinez.

Thats maybe being simplistic and being swayed by current public opinion but it would be a decision that shows some intent to progress... for me anyway

 

Agreed. I'm not totally sure about him as there's every chance he's a bit 'flavour of the month' but it would show ambition for the future by employing a young manager whose stock is rising rapidly and whose team play free-flowing attacking football from the little I've seen and heard. He'd be desperate to prove himself as a top-level manager as soon as possible and I still believe he would come here.

 

I agree, but I think there are an awful lot of people who would criticise his appointment.

 

Could be wrong mind.

[Dave]

I also totally forgot to say that I think we'll learn a lot more about where the club is heading by the end of the summer, perhaps after that I'll have changed my mind, or perhaps other people will have, who knows?

 

I sincerely hope they prove all of the doubters* wrong this summer. That starts with getting a good manager in who can and will work within this stupid fucking system if they're adamant it's here to stay. A good manager is not Joe Kinnear.

 

*I say that knowing full well there are those who will never be convinced, and don't appear to want to be.

He would convince me tonight by going for Martinez.

Thats maybe being simplistic and being swayed by current public opinion but it would be a decision that shows some intent to progress... for me anyway

 

Agreed. I'm not totally sure about him as there's every chance he's a bit 'flavour of the month' but it would show ambition for the future by employing a young manager whose stock is rising rapidly and whose team play free-flowing attacking football from the little I've seen and heard. He'd be desperate to prove himself as a top-level manager as soon as possible and I still believe he would come here.

 

I agree, but I think there are an awful lot of people who would criticise his appointment.

 

Could be wrong mind.

 

I've no doubt a load of people would complain. Probably the same people asking 'who?'.

[Thespence]

For me Martinez would have to be convinced he is running the show. Look at his signings  at Swansea even though he has not played or lived in Spain for years you can tell they are his signings as most of them have played in or are from Catalonia which is his patch.

 

With our current system in place we should be looking for a coach not a manager & a person who is used to working in system similar to ours.

[Wallace]

It is all about appointing the right manager and not one of their mates.  That is the most important decison they have to make.  If they get a good manager, then things will start improve. 

[Dave]

For me Martinez would have to be convinced he is running the show. Look at his signings at Swansea even though he has not played or lived in Spain for years you can tell they are his signings as most of them have played in or are from Catalonia which is his patch.

 

With our current system in place we should be looking for a coach not a manager & a person who is used to working in system similar to ours.

 

Probably right. They've already proved by their words and actions that they will back the system over the manager. The question is whether or not it significantly limits our choice. I tend to believe it will.

 

I still think Kinnear would be manager next year if it wasn't for his health btw.

[Thespence]

For me Martinez would have to be convinced he is running the show. Look at his signings  at Swansea even though he has not played or lived in Spain for years you can tell they are his signings as most of them have played in or are from Catalonia which is his patch.

 

With our current system in place we should be looking for a coach not a manager & a person who is used to working in system similar to ours.

 

Probably right. They've already proved by their words and actions that they will back the system over the manager. The question is whether or not it significantly limits our choice. I tend to believe it will.

 

I still think Kinnear would be manager next year if it wasn't for his health btw.

 

It would limit the choice but I am sure a coach like Co Adriaanse would be ideal for the nut house that is SJP:

 

Tactical Approach

 

Adriaanse gained a lot of fame in the Netherlands after qualifying for the Champions League with the average Dutch club Willem II. It was even more impressive, because Willem II often played attacking football. Throughout his whole manager career he always stuck to play attacking football. Co Adriaanse's game approach is in many ways similar to that of Louis Van Gaal, who eventually succeeded him at AZ Alkmaar.

 

[edit] Psycho Co

 

Adriaanse is famous for his controversial training approach. At Willem II, he once ordered his whole squad to follow him by car, while they drove 13 km away from their training ground. At a remote spot, all players had to give their car keys to Adriaanse. Then he drove back to town, while the squad had to run in front of his car. Back at the training ground, the players got their car keys back. However, since their cars where still parked far from the training ground, they all had to walk back another 13 km.[1] At AZ Alkmaar he once ordered the whole squad to search for Easter eggs during the training. They looked for an hour until Co Adriaanse finally revealed there were no eggs hidden. [2] Adriaanse already had these strange training methods at the start of his career, because when he was a youth trainer at Ajax, he sometimes ordered his players to lay on the ground. Then a teammate (with football boots on) would run over the bodies.[3] Because of all these infamous incidents, Adriaanse is sometimes nicknamed Psycho Co.

[TRon]

Hopefully in the summer the first team will be boosted in numbers & freshened up with the likes of Viduka, Owen & a few others who have hung around the club for a while going nowhere getting moved on or contracts not renewed. Getting L.Blanc in as coach would also make me very happy.

 

There long term plan of signing young youth internationals could turn out to be great. There is no doubt a few of these lads will fail to make the grade but as the club is at a stage were it cant compete signing the best youngsters then it has to  be smarter than the other clubs. I don't think Wise is the man for this gig but as he is in place lets hope he goes on to prove most of us wrong & he can sit with European Football elite DOF:Foschi, Munchi & Lacombe

 

Aye, the plan is great in theory but for it to work the football side needs to be as meticulous as the financial planning. The appointment of the right manager is key and who the club go for will tell us a lot about Ashley's plans and whether they match up with the big talk.

[Thespence]

Hopefully in the summer the first team will be boosted in numbers & freshened up with the likes of Viduka, Owen & a few others who have hung around the club for a while going nowhere getting moved on or contracts not renewed. Getting L.Blanc in as coach would also make me very happy.

 

There long term plan of signing young youth internationals could turn out to be great. There is no doubt a few of these lads will fail to make the grade but as the club is at a stage were it cant compete signing the best youngsters then it has to  be smarter than the other clubs. I don't think Wise is the man for this gig but as he is in place lets hope he goes on to prove most of us wrong & he can sit with European Football elite DOF:Foschi, Munchi & Lacombe

 

Aye, the plan is great in theory but for it to work the football side needs to be as meticulous as the financial planning. The appointment of the right manager is key and who the club go for will tell us a lot about Ashley's plans and whether they match up with the big talk.

 

Spot on, I liked what Ricky Sbragia  was saying about signing players:

 

But the club is determined that it will have as complete a dossier on any potential new signing as possible in the future - an aim that most managers strive for but often fail to fully achieve.

 

Sbragia though is a cautious character by nature and sees it as a vital part of his role to ensure the club's money is spent as fruitfully as possible.

 

The club's two signings in the January transfer window, Tal Ben-Haim and Calum Davenport, were both players that the club knew about in great detail and felt confident would fit into Sunderland's plans.

 

And Sbragia regards successful player recruitment as one of the absolute keys to any hope of progress on Wearside.

 

He said: "It was something I saw first-hand at Manchester United - the care taken over recruitment and the planning that might go into it, months and months and sometimes even years in advance.

 

"United make sure that they are constantly tracking players and, just as importantly, checking to see whether the temperament and talent of particular individuals would suit United.

 

"I always said that if I ever became a manager I would never sign a player that I hadn't seen in the flesh myself and that's something I intend to keep to."

 

http://www.shieldsgazette.com/safc/Sunderland-eye-top-young-keeper.4987413.jp

[TRon]

Hopefully in the summer the first team will be boosted in numbers & freshened up with the likes of Viduka, Owen & a few others who have hung around the club for a while going nowhere getting moved on or contracts not renewed. Getting L.Blanc in as coach would also make me very happy.

 

There long term plan of signing young youth internationals could turn out to be great. There is no doubt a few of these lads will fail to make the grade but as the club is at a stage were it cant compete signing the best youngsters then it has to  be smarter than the other clubs. I don't think Wise is the man for this gig but as he is in place lets hope he goes on to prove most of us wrong & he can sit with European Football elite DOF:Foschi, Munchi & Lacombe

 

Aye, the plan is great in theory but for it to work the football side needs to be as meticulous as the financial planning. The appointment of the right manager is key and who the club go for will tell us a lot about Ashley's plans and whether they match up with the big talk.

 

Spot on, I liked what Ricky Sbragia  was saying about signing players:

 

But the club is determined that it will have as complete a dossier on any potential new signing as possible in the future - an aim that most managers strive for but often fail to fully achieve.

 

Sbragia though is a cautious character by nature and sees it as a vital part of his role to ensure the club's money is spent as fruitfully as possible.

 

The club's two signings in the January transfer window, Tal Ben-Haim and Calum Davenport, were both players that the club knew about in great detail and felt confident would fit into Sunderland's plans.

 

And Sbragia regards successful player recruitment as one of the absolute keys to any hope of progress on Wearside.

 

He said: "It was something I saw first-hand at Manchester United - the care taken over recruitment and the planning that might go into it, months and months and sometimes even years in advance.

 

"United make sure that they are constantly tracking players and, just as importantly, checking to see whether the temperament and talent of particular individuals would suit United.

 

"I always said that if I ever became a manager I would never sign a player that I hadn't seen in the flesh myself and that's something I intend to keep to."

 

http://www.shieldsgazette.com/safc/Sunderland-eye-top-young-keeper.4987413.jp

 

I don't know how many times I've heard Newcastle managers say the player has to be right for this club, then end up getting sacked because they bought bad players. Hopefullt Ricky Sbragia will follow their example.

[ikri]

 

Spot on, I liked what Ricky Sbragia  was saying about signing players:

 

But the club is determined that it will have as complete a dossier on any potential new signing as possible in the future - an aim that most managers strive for but often fail to fully achieve.

 

Sbragia though is a cautious character by nature and sees it as a vital part of his role to ensure the club's money is spent as fruitfully as possible.

 

The club's two signings in the January transfer window, Tal Ben-Haim and Calum Davenport, were both players that the club knew about in great detail and felt confident would fit into Sunderland's plans.

 

And Sbragia regards successful player recruitment as one of the absolute keys to any hope of progress on Wearside.

 

He said: "It was something I saw first-hand at Manchester United - the care taken over recruitment and the planning that might go into it, months and months and sometimes even years in advance.

 

"United make sure that they are constantly tracking players and, just as importantly, checking to see whether the temperament and talent of particular individuals would suit United.

 

"I always said that if I ever became a manager I would never sign a player that I hadn't seen in the flesh myself and that's something I intend to keep to."

 

http://www.shieldsgazette.com/safc/Sunderland-eye-top-young-keeper.4987413.jp

 

Is it just me or is he channelling Roeder?

[Kitman]

I agree with most of Indi's long post.  Most people would I suspect settle for stability and steady improvement......the problem is we've had neither and have largely looked like relegation fodder since Keegan left.  I'm very disappointed with the transfer window (in terms of quantity of signings and the way we went about it) and I'm not surprised a lot of people don't trust them to fix things in the summer as a result.

 

The next manager appointment will be the most important since Sir Bobby's imo.  I'm still incredulous that they offered Kinnear another two years.  The manager situation is for me their biggest failing.  Fix that and we take a massive step forward;  bungle it and we're shafted, as there's no room for error anymore.

 

I really hope they're looking hard, and not waiting to see if Joe's coming back.  The cynic in me says the latter's most likely.

[Mick]

I agree with most of Indi's long post.  Most people would I suspect settle for stability and steady improvement......the problem is we've had neither and have largely looked like relegation fodder since Keegan left.  I'm very disappointed with the transfer window (in terms of quantity of signings and the way we went about it) and I'm not surprised a lot of people don't trust them to fix things in the summer as a result.

 

The next manager appointment will be the most important since Sir Bobby's imo.  I'm still incredulous that they offered Kinnear another two years.  The manager situation is for me their biggest failing.  Fix that and we take a massive step forward;  bungle it and we're shafted, as there's no room for error anymore.

 

I really hope they're looking hard, and not waiting to see if Joe's coming back.  The cynic in me says the latter's most likely.

 

If they are decent human beings then they'll wait for Kinnear, if they are any good in business then they'll ditch him.