Financial meltdown?

[Decky]

Horse shit on the legends, has just claimed theres a rumour, if the toon dont get any points in the next 3 games, Ashley is going to put the club into administration.

 

Would it surprise you if he did?

[Tooj]

Horse shit on the legends, has just claimed theres a rumour, if the toon dont get any points in the next 3 games, Ashley is going to put the club into administration.

 

Somebody mentioned that to me on Saturday.

[Teasy]

We weren’t as shit as we are now. We were never this close to being relegated under FF, and for most of his tenure NUFC were anything but shit.

 

For most of the time your referring to he wasn't even in charge, John Hall was.  But either way we're talking about the last few years for a reason, because they lead in to Ashley's time here.  What happened five years ago has little baring on Ashley's time here.  He didn't take over when we were finishing 2nd or 3rd the year before, he came in when we'd finished 13th.

 

Now I do agree Ashley's made and is making some unbelievable blunders.  Mostly in who he chooses to run the club, if we get relegated I'll find it very difficult not to despise the man.  I just don't agree with harkening back to the shepherd days when it seems pretty obvious to me that Shepherd would have ended up bankrupting the club completely had he stayed on.

 

Our financial position wasn’t great, but two years after Ashley took over the club’s debt has increased, and if we go down the chances of ever clearing it look remote

 

Not true, we haven't seen results for the second year of Ashley's time here.  We have results for his first year, in which we made a loss pretty much as big as the year before.  How did you expect him to stop the losses started by Shepherd in his first year exactly?  As for clearing the debts, they're now held by the owner of the club rather then outside parties as they were under Shepherd.

[NE5]

Okay, I'll ask anyone else to respond if they disagree with that fairly simple statement.

 

NUFC were shit for the final few years of the Shepherd regime, and were running into serious problems with the finances.

 

Please reply if you dispute this.

 

the positions of those last few years - especially 7th - were considered highly successful before the halls and Shepherd. They would be considered equally successful under the current regime.

 

Anyone who thinks they were "shit" only thinks so due to the far higher standards set by the Halls and Shepherd. I suspect most people who think this, only think it because they only knew the higher standards set by the Halls and Shepherd, although there are some bandwagon jumpers.

 

So I don't give a toss if people disagree, they have disagreed with me all the way down the line about this., and they are still wrong if they disagree. The facts and league positions, performance of the club both on the field and in the value of the club back it up completely. Its a pity they still can't see, despite the disastrous last 20 months.

 

 

[Teasy]

Horse shit on the legends, has just claimed theres a rumour, if the toon dont get any points in the next 3 games, Ashley is going to put the club into administration.

 

Would it surprise you if he did?

 

Hmm, what would he gain from that?  Genuine question, because I'm struggling to see the plus side to it.  Going into administration doesn't gain him anything.  Doing it before the end of the season, and especially before our three most winnable games would be even more insane.

[Decky]

Why would Ashley put us into admin anyway? Incase we are forced into administration in the summer, so just doing it now so we lose points this season rather than next? Lets face it, we dont pick up points in the next 3 games we are down anyway.

[Teasy]

Shame on us for not loving Shepherd because we were good in the past?, its the past.  We were s*** for years under Shepherd before Ashley came in, unfortunately we were also racking up unmanageable debts that would have buried the club completely.

 

The main problem here isn't lack of investment IMO, its the managerial situation.  You seem to think that when someone defends Ashley's handling of the financial situation at the club that they're defending everything Ashley's done.  I don't think anyone here is, not one of us.

 

You and HTL were right on what by the way?, that we should have stayed with Shepherd?, I don't agree.  With Ashley we've got a clown who doesn't realise the importance of having a proper manager or the seriousness of our current situation who might end up getting us relegated.  With Shepherd we had a clown who liked to look the big man by throwing our money around to the point where we were heading for administration.  Who to choose, who to choose...  Can I choose neither?

Yes, but you got both.

 

It’s a tired debate and not worth rehashing. At the end of the day Ashley has to be judged on what he does, and on that front he’s guilty as sin. Guilty of letting the squad turn to rot. Guilty of appointing Keegan / letting Keegan go. Guilty of appointing Kinnear, and guilty of sticking with JFK when a proper permanent manager was needed…. not once, but twice this season. This alone condemns him.

 

 

I don't disagree with any of that, I've said in this very thread that Ashley has made and is still making some terrible mistakes that I'll never forgive him for, especially if we go down.  I just won't blame him for the financial situation or expect him to keep on doing what Shepherd was doing with new signings and insane wages despite increasing losses.

[Teasy]

Shame on us for not loving Shepherd because we were good in the past?, its the past.  We were shit for years under Shepherd before Ashley came in, unfortunately we were also racking up unmanageable debts that would have buried the club completely.

 

The main problem here isn't lack of investment IMO, its the managerial situation.  You seem to think that when someone defends Ashley's handling of the financial situation at the club that they're defending everything Ashley's done.  I don't think anyone here is, not one of us.

 

You and HTL were right on what by the way?, that we should have stayed with Shepherd?, I don't agree.  With Ashley we've got a clown who doesn't realise the importance of having a proper manager or the seriousness of our current situation who might end up getting us relegated.  With Shepherd we had a clown who liked to look the big man by throwing our money around to the point where we were heading for administration.  Who to choose, who to choose...  Can I choose neither?

 

We are shit now though. If Mike Ashley finishes 13th in the league he will call it success, and so will those who blindly and stupidly thought the last years of the Halls and Shepherd were shit, they will be doing cartwheels if Ashley finishes in mid table in the top league.

 

Thats the message that myself, HTL and a small handful of others tried to tell you.

 

We finished 13th with a wage bill Shepherd had amassed to the 5th highest in the Premiership and losses that weren't sustainable even for another year under his management.  Do I think Ashley has done a good job, NO!  Do I think we were good in the later years of Shepherds time or that we should look back at that time and smile now, NO!  Especially given the looming bankruptcy we now know we were facing.  I can accept that both Shepherd and Ashley have done incredibly bad jobs at the club in the last 4 or 5 years.  So if you think I'm championing Ashley you're wrong.

[Dave]

Does anyone think Allardyce would have done any better under Shepherd (probably with even less money to spend) btw?

 

Just wondering.

[Tooj]

Does anyone think Allardyce would have done any better under Shepherd (probably with even less money to spend) btw?

 

Just wondering.

 

Didn't Allardyce say that he had a few deals lined up under Freddy but they never happened due to the takeover?

[Dave]

Does anyone think Allardyce would have done any better under Shepherd (probably with even less money to spend) btw?

 

Just wondering.

 

Didn't Allardyce say that he had a few deals lined up under Freddy but they never happened due to the takeover?

 

Not as explicitly as that IIRC, but he definitely intimated that he'd have done things different without the takeover to worry about, aye.

[Decky]

I think Big Sam knew that he was going to get sacked. Once Ashley took over there were cries he wanted his own manager. Seemed Sam had given up come December aswell. If he was enthusiastic about his future here i.e. knew if he did well he would be here at least 5 years. Then I genuinely believe his time here would have been completely different.

[Dave]

I think Big Sam knew that he was going to get sacked. Once Ashley took over there were cries he wanted his own manager. Seemed Sam had given up come December aswell. If he was enthusiastic about his future here i.e. knew if he did well he would be here at least 5 years. Then I genuinely believe his time here would have been completely different.

 

Fair comment. He certainly matched up with Shepherd much more than with Ashley in theory. Personalities as well as the budget issues.

 

I ask this btw as one of seemingly few who never thought Allardyce was taking us down, despite not rating him at all.

[ikri]

Horse shit on the legends, has just claimed theres a rumour, if the toon dont get any points in the next 3 games, Ashley is going to put the club into administration.

 

Administration makes no logical or financial sense.

 

Ashley is the major creditor of the club as well as being the owner, in effect he owes himself money.  If he took the club into administration he'd probably have to write off either the purchase cost of the club or the loan money he's put in.  It's also worth noting that appointing an administrator generally costs a fortune.

 

Putting the club into administration would probably see Ashley coming out of it all with £100million at best, quite possibly a lot less.  At the same time he could quite easily put the club on the market again for a similar amount (£100-125m) and find a buyer very quickly (there was one bid entered before Christmas that was rejected because it didn't meet Ashley's valuation, yet I'd put money on that being higher than £100m).

[Mistle17]

Our finances were much, much worse under FFS than they are atm under Ashley.

 

It was a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to NUFC going bust.

[Decky]

Our finances were much, much worse under FFS than they are atm under Ashley.

 

It was a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to NUFC going bust.

 

Im not so sure. Our debts arnt as big a problem now, its mismanagement from Ashley that has us in this situation as he spent too much time on the books and not enough on the squad, so relegation will more than likely happen and cripple him. Kind of ironic really.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Our finances were much, much worse under FFS than they are atm under Ashley.

 

It was a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to NUFC going bust.

 

I can't remember the club being in over £250m of debt under FS like. Now it is and boy are we paying for it. The debt levels under FS were worrying but manageable all the same. Unlike Ashley who it appears doesn't recognise at all the seriousness of the situation we are in, FS did hence the appointment of Sam Allardyce, a manager capable of doing wonders on a small budget and building from the bottom up. Oh and when the club goes down.... it will make the level of debt we were in under FS seem like pennies. So much for Ashley's plan eh.

[Decky]

Just found out that if we did go into administration, our points deduction would infact be next season. Would be a fucking disaster if Ashley did it as we would just be fighting the drop next season again, but I still dont believe he will.

[Teasy]

Our finances were much, much worse under FFS than they are atm under Ashley.

 

It was a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to NUFC going bust.

 

I can't remember the club being in over £250m of debt under FS like. Now it is and boy are we paying for it. The debt levels under FS were worrying but manageable all the same. Unlike Ashley who it appears doesn't recognise at all the seriousness of the situation we are in, FS did hence the appointment of Sam Allardyce, a manager capable of doing wonders on a small budget and building from the bottom up. Oh and when the club goes down.... it will make the level of debt we were in under FS seem like pennies. So much for Ashley's plan eh.

 

£250 million debt?, what are you on about?    By the way our debt, and more importantly the way it was expanding, under Shepherd was not manageable.  Our debt repayments were being paid for by more debt and so was a large amount of the clubs wages.  Back then we owed tens of millions to outside lenders.  Our only debts now are interest free loans from the man who owns the club.

[TRon]

Our finances were much, much worse under FFS than they are atm under Ashley.

 

It was a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to NUFC going bust.

 

I can't remember the club being in over £250m of debt under FS like. Now it is and boy are we paying for it. The debt levels under FS were worrying but manageable all the same. Unlike Ashley who it appears doesn't recognise at all the seriousness of the situation we are in, FS did hence the appointment of Sam Allardyce, a manager capable of doing wonders on a small budget and building from the bottom up. Oh and when the club goes down.... it will make the level of debt we were in under FS seem like pennies. So much for Ashley's plan eh.

 

Is it really necessary to manipulate figures to make out we were less in debt under Shepherd? Aren't Fat Sam's signings the biggest wage earners of the lot in terms of what they have provided in value for money?

 

Viduka? Barton? Geremi? Smith?

[Guest Brummiemag]

Okay, I'll ask anyone else to respond if they disagree with that fairly simple statement.

 

NUFC were shit for the final few years of the Shepherd regime, and were running into serious problems with the finances.

 

Please reply if you dispute this.

 

Not as shit and as we are now and back then there wasnt the same air of doom and disillusionment hanging over the club as there is now

 

Do you think Shepherd would have chosen Wise over Keegan?

Do you think Shepherd would have gambled on our future in the premier league by making a profit in the January transfer window?

Do you think Shepherd would have done nothing and continued to place our hopes of premiership survival on a second rate manager who is recovering from a heart attack?

[quayside]

Our finances were much, much worse under FFS than they are atm under Ashley.

 

It was a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to NUFC going bust.

 

I can't remember the club being in over £250m of debt under FS like. Now it is and boy are we paying for it. The debt levels under FS were worrying but manageable all the same. Unlike Ashley who it appears doesn't recognise at all the seriousness of the situation we are in, FS did hence the appointment of Sam Allardyce, a manager capable of doing wonders on a small budget and building from the bottom up. Oh and when the club goes down.... it will make the level of debt we were in under FS seem like pennies. So much for Ashley's plan eh.

 

We are not £250 million in debt. Ashley paid about £130 million for the club and has loaned at least £120 mllion since. The amount paid for the club is not debt.

 

The question that will not go away, it has been asked on here several times but no one can answer it, is how would the previous board have financed the club if they had still been in control? The glib answer that all successful football clubs have debt does not cut it, other clubs have debt because someone is prepared to lend it, meaning that they can demonstrate to the lender that the debt is secured and has a prospect of repayment. Who would have loaned us more money in the situation we were in? It is like you have a 100% mortgage on your house, everything in your house (furniture, kitchen appliances etc) and your car are bought on HP - plus your annual income is less than than your annual costs.  Now go and find someone to lend you some money in the current climate to allow you to speculate to accumulate...

 

There are people on this board, like me, who aren't Ashley believers. In my case I think he is a chancer who made some money floating a chain of downmarket sports retail shops at a grossly inflated value. He has bought us to show off to his mates and is now way out of his depth. We all know that there are indefensible actions relating to the Ashley regime. But until someone answers the above fundamental question about the previous regime it is hard to put the current shambles into perspective.     

[Dave]

Okay, I'll ask anyone else to respond if they disagree with that fairly simple statement.

 

NUFC were shit for the final few years of the Shepherd regime, and were running into serious problems with the finances.

 

Please reply if you dispute this.

 

Not as shit and as we are now and back then there wasnt the same air of doom and disillusionment hanging over the club as there is now

 

Do you think Shepherd would have chosen Wise over Keegan?

Do you think Shepherd would have gambled on our future in the premier league by making a profit in the January transfer window?

Do you think Shepherd would have done nothing and continued to place our hopes of premiership survival on a second rate manager who is recovering from a heart attack?

 

As before; I never mentioned Ashley in that statement. This isn't a comparison.

[WhatTheFunk]

But he's right though, how could they afford to finance the continued losses the club has made, especially while spending big in the transfer market?  We lost £35 million last season without spending anything on players and that had to be finances by Ashley's own cash.

 

so relegation due to lack of investment and zero ambition is the answer ?

 

Shame on those who scorn the people who gave us the best decade and a half of the last 50 years by a million miles.

 

As HTL said yesterday, how many of you actually thought we were winding you up, when only a handful of people including me and him knew what we were talking about.

 

You should be telling the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal how they are doing it all wrong, and their priority should be to make a profit and sell their highest earning players.

 

 

 

Answer his question instead of babbling on like a sexually frustrated woman

[WhatTheFunk]

Our finances were much, much worse under FFS than they are atm under Ashley.

 

It was a matter of 'when' not 'if' as to NUFC going bust.

 

I can't remember the club being in over £250m of debt under FS like. Now it is and boy are we paying for it. The debt levels under FS were worrying but manageable all the same. Unlike Ashley who it appears doesn't recognise at all the seriousness of the situation we are in, FS did hence the appointment of Sam Allardyce, a manager capable of doing wonders on a small budget and building from the bottom up. Oh and when the club goes down.... it will make the level of debt we were in under FS seem like pennies. So much for Ashley's plan eh.