madras Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 No-one ever says it but I can remember the police at Hillsborough that day forming a cordon across the park because they thought the Liverpool fans were going to start a pitch invasion (this was on the telly - I wasn't there). They were either on horseback or had dogs, can't remember. So they stood there whilst people died, they were also shoving people back in because they were trying to stop this mythical pitch invasion. But that's never said either. And wasn't the reason the fans kept coming in that they were directed that way? They just kept being told to go into the centre and they just kept piling in. I think to blame them is extremely insensitive, not to say clueless when you don't even know what happened. Try to think what it would be like if it was one of your family? Would you like oiks on the Liverpool board discussing how it was your fault? The police were always obsessed with pitch invasions, everyone forgets that before Stewards we had Police in their place. Didn't everyone say it was a cheap way for them to watch the match? everything about the police there is true. they fucked up big style that day. but anyone with experience of liverpool fans of the time and previous will tell you the same. how would i feel ? i'd feel as mad as hell towards anyone trying to gain entry to the ground without a ticket and the tactics they used to try to get in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Geordie Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I have a link to the documentary, am I allowed to post it seeing as it was aired 13 years ago? You can always PM it around, Kryten if linking to it on here isn't allowed. Would like to see it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistle17 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I have a link to the documentary, am I allowed to post it seeing as it was aired 13 years ago? You can always PM it around, Kryten if linking to it on here isn't allowed. Would like to see it. Same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paully Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Has anoyne got a link for this article please? Cheers mate http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-survivors Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unlucky Luque Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 I have a link to the documentary, am I allowed to post it seeing as it was aired 13 years ago? You can always PM it around, Kryten if linking to it on here isn't allowed. Would like to see it. Same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mistle17 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Just finished watching the documentary. Its so sad....it really is. It actually made me shed a few tears... Its very good, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 No-one ever says it but I can remember the police at Hillsborough that day forming a cordon across the park because they thought the Liverpool fans were going to start a pitch invasion (this was on the telly - I wasn't there). They were either on horseback or had dogs, can't remember. So they stood there whilst people died, they were also shoving people back in because they were trying to stop this mythical pitch invasion. But that's never said either. And wasn't the reason the fans kept coming in that they were directed that way? They just kept being told to go into the centre and they just kept piling in. I think to blame them is extremely insensitive, not to say clueless when you don't even know what happened. Try to think what it would be like if it was one of your family? Would you like oiks on the Liverpool board discussing how it was your fault? The police were always obsessed with pitch invasions, everyone forgets that before Stewards we had Police in their place. Didn't everyone say it was a cheap way for them to watch the match? everything about the police there is true. they f***ed up big style that day. but anyone with experience of liverpool fans of the time and previous will tell you the same. how would i feel ? i'd feel as mad as hell towards anyone trying to gain entry to the ground without a ticket and the tactics they used to try to get in. You're a police apologist. Of course you are going to get some fans trying to get into the game by any means necessary, many fans of various teams, including us, were doing that kind of thing in those days (and for many years before). The police would of known this and are guilty of f***ing up big style, when they should of been there to help they did f*** all apart from make things worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 No-one ever says it but I can remember the police at Hillsborough that day forming a cordon across the park because they thought the Liverpool fans were going to start a pitch invasion (this was on the telly - I wasn't there). They were either on horseback or had dogs, can't remember. So they stood there whilst people died, they were also shoving people back in because they were trying to stop this mythical pitch invasion. But that's never said either. And wasn't the reason the fans kept coming in that they were directed that way? They just kept being told to go into the centre and they just kept piling in. I think to blame them is extremely insensitive, not to say clueless when you don't even know what happened. Try to think what it would be like if it was one of your family? Would you like oiks on the Liverpool board discussing how it was your fault? The police were always obsessed with pitch invasions, everyone forgets that before Stewards we had Police in their place. Didn't everyone say it was a cheap way for them to watch the match? everything about the police there is true. they f***ed up big style that day. but anyone with experience of liverpool fans of the time and previous will tell you the same. how would i feel ? i'd feel as mad as hell towards anyone trying to gain entry to the ground without a ticket and the tactics they used to try to get in. You're a police apologist. Of course you are going to get some fans trying to get into the game by any means necessary, many fans of various teams, including us, were doing that kind of thing in those days (and for many years before). The police would of known this and are guilty of f***ing up big style, when they should of been there to help they did f*** all apart from make things worse. i said the police fucked up,i have experience of the police behaviour in those situations. but lots of people with experience of a sizeable section of liverpool fans of that time will say the same as me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biggs Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 Are you therefore saying that Liverpool fans were to blame for what happened at Hillsborough? I'm saying that along with the Police they should accept some of the responsibility. How can you come out with a comment like that when you were not there and never experienced it ffs,In the 80,s when the toon played at hillsborough on a saturday in the late summer when it was boiling hot and the match ended every toon fan headed for the exits into a paddock area behind the stand and i guess i was about 16 at the time but they kept the gates for the exits locked but the police and stewards did absolutley nothing to help and there were literally thousands all crushing together waiting to get out and kids and a police woman had to be helped on to a low roof on a building on a outer wall to avoid injury , i will never forget that day as i was lifted off my feet in a wave of pushing and panic until the gates were opened . So dont come on here making throw away comments about something you know fuck all about Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted March 25, 2009 Share Posted March 25, 2009 No-one ever says it but I can remember the police at Hillsborough that day forming a cordon across the park because they thought the Liverpool fans were going to start a pitch invasion (this was on the telly - I wasn't there). They were either on horseback or had dogs, can't remember. So they stood there whilst people died, they were also shoving people back in because they were trying to stop this mythical pitch invasion. But that's never said either. And wasn't the reason the fans kept coming in that they were directed that way? They just kept being told to go into the centre and they just kept piling in. I think to blame them is extremely insensitive, not to say clueless when you don't even know what happened. Try to think what it would be like if it was one of your family? Would you like oiks on the Liverpool board discussing how it was your fault? The police were always obsessed with pitch invasions, everyone forgets that before Stewards we had Police in their place. Didn't everyone say it was a cheap way for them to watch the match? everything about the police there is true. they f***ed up big style that day. but anyone with experience of liverpool fans of the time and previous will tell you the same. how would i feel ? i'd feel as mad as hell towards anyone trying to gain entry to the ground without a ticket and the tactics they used to try to get in. You're a police apologist. Of course you are going to get some fans trying to get into the game by any means necessary, many fans of various teams, including us, were doing that kind of thing in those days (and for many years before). The police would of known this and are guilty of f***ing up big style, when they should of been there to help they did f*** all apart from make things worse. And you've been taken in by the Scouse "blame everybody else" propaganda machine. I expect it to get worse as time goes on. Fact is, if hundreds of them hadn't been there without tickets, drunk and trying to force their way into the stadium the Police wouldn't have had any decisions to get wrong. Yes, the Police made mistakes, but that was a reaction to events that didn't need to happen in the first place. To ignore it is ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Are you therefore saying that Liverpool fans were to blame for what happened at Hillsborough? I'm saying that along with the Police they should accept some of the responsibility. How can you come out with a comment like that when you were not there and never experienced it ffs,In the 80,s when the toon played at hillsborough on a saturday in the late summer when it was boiling hot and the match ended every toon fan headed for the exits into a paddock area behind the stand and i guess i was about 16 at the time but they kept the gates for the exits locked but the police and stewards did absolutley nothing to help and there were literally thousands all crushing together waiting to get out and kids and a police woman had to be helped on to a low roof on a building on a outer wall to avoid injury , i will never forget that day as i was lifted off my feet in a wave of pushing and panic until the gates were opened . So dont come on here making throw away comments about something you know fuck all about Errr, because I did come out with the comment? How does that answer your question? Do you want me to embarrass you by asking you how you can lay all the blame on the Police when you were not there and never experienced it ffs? It's an obvious response to your post. It's probably difficult after a couple of cans, but I suggest you keep your insults to yourself if you want to have any credibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 And you've been taken in by the Scouse "blame everybody else" propaganda machine. I expect it to get worse as time goes on. Fact is, if hundreds of them hadn't been there without tickets, drunk and trying to force their way into the stadium the Police wouldn't have had any decisions to get wrong. Yes, the Police made mistakes, but that was a reaction to events that didn't need to happen in the first place. To ignore it is ridiculous. A few hundred ticketless fans* -v- thousands of fans being treat like fucking animals by both the police and fence erecting football authorities. *And according to some reports it appears that the authorities were herding fans into sections of the ground that were already full (no doubt these eye witnesses are all part of the scouse propaganda machine...). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I find it sad that anything that mentions Hillsborough quickly descends into arguments about who was to blame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I find it sad that anything that mentions Hillsborough quickly descends into arguments about who was to blame. The thing is Dave it's not just about Hillsborough, it's about the way *all* fans are treat/were treated by the police/authorities. edited to add: Of course this is just my opinion on it all, so I won't continue with the blame thing further, anyone with half a brain and experience of policing at football games can go and read first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hillsborough, and make up their own minds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 And you've been taken in by the Scouse "blame everybody else" propaganda machine. I expect it to get worse as time goes on. Fact is, if hundreds of them hadn't been there without tickets, drunk and trying to force their way into the stadium the Police wouldn't have had any decisions to get wrong. Yes, the Police made mistakes, but that was a reaction to events that didn't need to happen in the first place. To ignore it is ridiculous. A few hundred ticketless fans* -v- thousands of fans being treat like fucking animals by both the police and fence erecting football authorities. *And according to some reports it appears that the authorities were herding fans into sections of the ground that were already full (no doubt these eye witnesses are all part of the scouse propaganda machine...). I find it sad that anything that mentions Hillsborough quickly descends into arguments about who was to blame. The thing is Dave it's not just about Hillsborough, it's about the way *all* fans are treat/were treated by the police/authorities. edited to add: Of course this is just my opinion on it all, so I won't continue with the blame thing further, anyone with half a brain and experience of policing at football games can go and read first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hillsborough, and make up their own minds. Been going to football matches since 1968, mate. Thought I'd mention it given your comment above. I've stood in some rather large crowds as well, despite how crap we were over the years. Nearly been trod on by horses from time to time and all that. I didn't like the fences but they weren't put there to stop the players or the Police from entering the crowd. Think about it. Can I take it that by believing first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hilsborough you're talking about liverpool fans and nobody else? What about the first hand accounts of the Police? What can be seen on video of people trying to break into the ground because they'd arrived there without tickets with that very intention? Does that not count or contribute toward this incident? Dave is right. It always descends into blame but that's usually because some nob throws in a ridiculous line about the Police, as though they were 100% the cause of the incident, then the discussion kicks off again because they weren't 100% the cause. Anyone with half a brain would know that, but the public wants a scapegoat for these things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Been going to football matches since 1968, mate. Thought I'd mention it given your comment above. Wonderful, mate, but I don't see where I questioned your service to football. I didn't like the fences but they weren't put there to stop the players or the Police from entering the crowd. Think about it. A ridiculous over-reaction by the footballing authorities, treating the average football fan like an animal, and finally resulting in many deaths? yeah I've thought about it. Can I take it that by believing first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hilsborough you're talking about liverpool fans and nobody else? What about the first hand accounts of the Police? What can be seen on video of people trying to break into the ground because they'd arrived there without tickets with that very intention? Does that not count or contribute toward this incident? So what were the police doing to prevent the few ticket-less fans trying to gain entry? surely they should of been prepared if indeed this was the case? instead they herded fans into sections that were already full, and the police inside the ground did f*** all when people we're asking for help through the fences. Dave is right. It always descends into blame but that's usually because some nob throws in a ridiculous line about the Police, as though they were 100% the cause of the incident, then the discussion kicks off again because they weren't 100% the cause. Anyone with half a brain would know that, but the public wants a scapegoat for these things. So to question the police means you're a nob? nice. Whatever started the incident will be contested ad nauseum, but *afaic* the actions of the police made the whole thing 100% worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Direct questions to Howaythelads. Why did the police direct the fans all into the one pen then? Yes it probably was a mistake but you cannot blame the Liverpool fans for that can you? At the end of the day the policing failed. You can blame the fans if you wish but you seem to have forgotten one thing. POLICE are supposed to POLICE the event, make it safe, instead they fell apart, opened a gate, failed to organise where the fans should have gone when they were inside the ground, then ignored screaming, dying fans and didn't open the gates at the front until it was far too late. Even then, they failed to help the fans who were obviously ill and dying, mistaking tragedy for an incident of hooliganism. Say what you want about the Liverpool fans, because we all know they were the only fans to behave in the way you describe in the 70's and 80's right? Rubbish, every team had an element of hooliganism there, including us. But the police failed that day, and they attempted to cover up their failures and shame the names of the 96 who died and their friends and family who did their level best to save them. You obviously failed to see the Liverpool fans who stretchered their mates down the pitch despite them being dead. You obviously didn't see fans hoisting their fellow fans up out of the crush saving their lives. You must have missed the fans who, without training, attempted CPR because the police wouldn't let the ambulance service through. Ambulances which sat outside Hillsbrough unable to go in and do their job and save some lives because the police wouldn't let them You call people for believing the Liverpool propaganda machine, and yet you have fallen into believing the South Yorkshire Police propaganda machine which decided to let the police who fucked up go unpunished for their actions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsunami Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 I well remember watching this on Grandstand & have also been in the Leppings Lane end a few times. There is a narrow walk up to it and once in there are narrow entries into the pens. It isn't well planned and needs good policing. We always take good numbers down there and the policing has always been a bit harsh. As a 16 year old I nearly wasn't allowed in for being "drunk", I hadn't had a drink & we'd been in a convoy escorted from the motorway by the police. They'd park you up and the fans were left to make their own way to the ground. Once at the ground the police were arrogant and disinterested in good policing. All the ingredients for a disaster were already there. The police must take the major share of the blame for incompetence in not taking control. But as hard as it may be to accept there was a large number of Liverpool fans who turned up late, many without tickets and did what was normal; tried to force their way in. They clearly didn't mean and have any idea what was to happen, but it did happen. If you had been to Hilsborough around that time you will know what that end was like. I'm not having a go at the fans but you unfortunately have to consider what contribution some of their actions led too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Svenno Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Direct questions to Howaythelads. Why did the police direct the fans all into the one pen then? Yes it probably was a mistake but you cannot blame the Liverpool fans for that can you? At the end of the day the policing failed. You can blame the fans if you wish but you seem to have forgotten one thing. POLICE are supposed to POLICE the event, make it safe, instead they fell apart, opened a gate, failed to organise where the fans should have gone when they were inside the ground, then ignored screaming, dying fans and didn't open the gates at the front until it was far too late. Even then, they failed to help the fans who were obviously ill and dying, mistaking tragedy for an incident of hooliganism. Say what you want about the Liverpool fans, because we all know they were the only fans to behave in the way you describe in the 70's and 80's right? Rubbish, every team had an element of hooliganism there, including us. But the police failed that day, and they attempted to cover up their failures and shame the names of the 96 who died and their friends and family who did their level best to save them. You obviously failed to see the Liverpool fans who stretchered their mates down the pitch despite them being dead. You obviously didn't see fans hoisting their fellow fans up out of the crush saving their lives. You must have missed the fans who, without training, attempted CPR because the police wouldn't let the ambulance service through. Ambulances which sat outside Hillsbrough unable to go in and do their job and save some lives because the police wouldn't let them You call people for believing the Liverpool propaganda machine, and yet you have fallen into believing the South Yorkshire Police propaganda machine which decided to let the police who fucked up go unpunished for their actions. Great, great post mate! You've got to be pretty arrogant to blame this on the supporters as we all have heard what happened. We all know the football fans these days tried to get into matches without tickets and they were pretty good at getting in as well. This goes not only for the Liverpool supporters, but to supporters of the majority of the clubs in England at this time. The police knew about this. They knew how many tickets they had sold and I'm pretty sure they knew approximatey how many people woud try to get in without a ticket. You've got to be heartless to even come up like words like "the Liverpool propaganda machine" as they not only lost their friends and family, but they were also held responsible by the police for the disaster by the people who were in charge. And for the people who actually laugh and makes remarks about Liverpool wanting to avoid this specific date for their Champions League clash; This is what football is about. Supporting football is not only watching 11 men play week in week out. Football is more than that, and for some people football is all they've got left. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 amazed no-one's brought heysel into this yet, so i will who's to "blame" there then? juve fans? liverpool fans? the fence? the wall? the police? you likely don't know 'cause it ain't on the scousers drum to beat - i imagine this will sound incredibly heartless to the princess diana tears and tiaras brigade but it's how i feel...they should carry themselves with a quiet dignity now imo yet given their proclivities for theatrics that's not likely to ever happen just don't see what it's serving now, they're looking for another inquiry i presume?...have memorials & move on as best you can, nothing is ever gained by standing still in life and dwelling on tragedy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 amazed no-one's brought heysel into this yet, so i will who's to "blame" there then? juve fans? liverpool fans? the fence? the wall? the police? Big fucking difference pal. Heysel was a tragedy caused by the actions of a few hoolies (on both sides). The ground was a crumbling mess. i imagine this will sound incredibly heartless to the princess diana tears and tiaras brigade what's that parasite got to do with it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp40 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 In the 70s and 80s, the stadiums were shit and in a state of disrepair, police crowd control was reactionary, provocative, and amateurish, fans were rowdy and violent, ticketing policy was inconsistent, Tv coverage was minimal, The blame,.. or reason for sensible people , is a combination of these factors, in almost all the cases mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 In the 70s and 80s, the stadiums were s*** and in a state of disrepair, police crowd control was reactionary, provocative, and amateurish, Some fans were rowdy and violent, ticketing policy was inconsistent, Tv coverage was minimal, The blame,.. or reason for sensible people , is a combination of these factors, in almost all the cases mentioned. Fyp & agree with you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 In the 70s and 80s, the stadiums were shit and in a state of disrepair, police crowd control was reactionary, provocative, and amateurish, fans were rowdy and violent, ticketing policy was inconsistent, Tv coverage was minimal, The blame,.. or reason for sensible people , is a combination of these factors, in almost all the cases mentioned. this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 26, 2009 Share Posted March 26, 2009 Direct questions to Howaythelads. Why did the police direct the fans all into the one pen then? Yes it probably was a mistake but you cannot blame the Liverpool fans for that can you? At the end of the day the policing failed. You can blame the fans if you wish but you seem to have forgotten one thing. POLICE are supposed to POLICE the event, make it safe, instead they fell apart, opened a gate, failed to organise where the fans should have gone when they were inside the ground, then ignored screaming, dying fans and didn't open the gates at the front until it was far too late. Even then, they failed to help the fans who were obviously ill and dying, mistaking tragedy for an incident of hooliganism. Say what you want about the Liverpool fans, because we all know they were the only fans to behave in the way you describe in the 70's and 80's right? Rubbish, every team had an element of hooliganism there, including us. But the police failed that day, and they attempted to cover up their failures and shame the names of the 96 who died and their friends and family who did their level best to save them. You obviously failed to see the Liverpool fans who stretchered their mates down the pitch despite them being dead. You obviously didn't see fans hoisting their fellow fans up out of the crush saving their lives. You must have missed the fans who, without training, attempted CPR because the police wouldn't let the ambulance service through. Ambulances which sat outside Hillsbrough unable to go in and do their job and save some lives because the police wouldn't let them You call people for believing the Liverpool propaganda machine, and yet you have fallen into believing the South Yorkshire Police propaganda machine which decided to let the police who f***ed up go unpunished for their actions. direct question to blufescu....what lead to the police making the decision to open the gate ? no one is saying "the supporters are solely to blame" it was a mixture of circumstances in which a section of the liverpool support have to accept some responsibilty. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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