Hillsborough

[Beren]

Well I , for one ,hope  they can give the 96 that passed families something to smile about , by winning their next game by a hatful.

 

Oh, look, by happy coincidence they're facing the Mackems :lol:

[Hanshithispantz]

I'd read that to mean they weren't drunk and aggressive.  So some may have been drunk, but not aggressive.

 

So no one was aggressive at a 80s football match but were drunk while not being able to get in to a game they paid to see?

 

Ok. Fine, its all clear in my head now what happened, it makes absolutely no sense (like the original report) but the and clears it all up for me.

Why would it make the report if a few fans were drunk and aggressive? Why is it even worth talking about at all?

 

There's no doubt at all that people would have been pissed at the ground, it's pretty likely that some would have been 'aggressive' in some manner, but it isn't relevant at all unless these drunken people were to blame for the crush, and they obviously weren't.

[Incognito]

Well I , for one ,hope  they can give the 96 that passed families something to smile about , by winning their next game by a hatful.

 

Oh, look, by happy coincidence they're facing the Mackems :lol:

 

Well I never.,

[Mick]

I remember in the early 80's being in the Leppings lane end and had no bother before the game or during but after the game ended all the toon fans vacated the stand ll at once on a boiling hot day and given no warning by the police to stay in our seats or on terracing so we all filed out into a walled area behind the stand with the exit gates to the streets still locked so the sheffield fans could disperse which was normal policy back then and probably now,with there being no gates open everyone behind just kept coming out without knowing the situation we wereall being pushed around and at times being young i couldnt control my direction but being on a wave off my feet and that wasnt just me.A police woman was helped on to a outbuilding to get out of bother and smaller kids the same ,looking back it shows how easy this sort of thing can happen.

 

I missed this post originally.  One of my mates said her tits were out as she was getting onto the turnstiles, I didn't see that though but seem to remember that she had blonde (head) hair.

[Mick]

I'll have to go along with someone who said that the blame has to go with the idea of fencing people in to a large degree. Was only a matter of time before it happened to someone. The cover up stuff however is nefarious stuff indeed.

 

The worst thing about Hillsborough is that the Bradford fire happened 13 months earlier and people had problems getting out because of small walls which were not as high as the fences at Hillsborough.  If Valley Parade had fences like Hillsborough then thousands would have died but no lessons were learned.

 

Football fans were regarded as and trested as animals.

[cp40]

think the bradford fire was 3-4 years earler mick. That like the countless other near disasters should have been acted on sooner. Spurs away '87 as close as ive been to it.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

First of all, I cannot stand the modern Liverpool as a club and as fans, but I was absolutely delighted for them, the club, fans, family and even the city, with the findings and I have the utmost respect for them for fighting this cause all the way, against huge odds. Sadly, this is no victory for them because what they lost, can never be returned. Justice may prevail, or one would hope so for all concerned, be it in terms of compensation, closure or whatever, but there can never be any real justice for the loss of a loved one.

 

Regarding the whole conspiracy and cover up I find it staggering that there seems to be a somewhat relaxed reaction to it now that it is out in the open. A major police force, the head of state at the time, the FA, and presumably susbequent governments have all been complicit in this scanderlous saga. Heads should roll, people need prosecuted for this and that fucking 'newspaper' ought to go the same way as the NOTW.

 

That cunt of an editor says sorry now, but still maintains he was acting on solid evidence. Bull-shit, surely a reporter or journalist and even the paper itself, would have made efforts to get back-up evidence before going to print with such a story.

 

By the way, good on the people of Liverpool for refusing to buy that rag since. People power at its best.

 

Back to the cover up and those involved, there needs to be a massive inquest into this and like I said, people need prosecuted and dealt with accordingly, all of those that are still around who were involved in this illegal saga need dealt with, even the evil wicked bitch herself.

 

This is massive or should be. How can we trust the police, the government and media ever again?

 

Those poor families....

 

That poor city....

 

Those poor people and yes, poor Liverpool FC even.

 

Justice indeed!

 

Now to my own thoughts on the actual disaster itself, which I genuinley believe it was as it started to unfold and escalate...

 

Firstly, whether fans were pissed up, ticketless or even yobish, no-one deserves to die for being one of either or all of those things. No person should die for any of those things much less attending a sporting event.

 

I don't think any fan that day can be blamed for what happened either, regardless. Thankfully the Taylor report and these documents and subsequent findings have absolved all fans of any blame and rightfully so.

 

Now to those in charge of safety, policing etc. and indeed security on the day. Looking back they handled the whole thing absymaly and in lots of ways helped towards the final death-toll. That said, I think most were ill-equiped to deal with what was happening or ill-advised as how to best react to what was happening. People panicked right left and centre and bear in mind, football fans of that era, especially on the road, were notoriouis for their yobbish ways, antagonism etc. so even before a ball was kicked if you like, to many, the fan was their to be contained, controlled and held back. To many I imagine the swell of thousands, the climbing of pens and the mass rush, could back then, easily have been misconstrued as a fight breaking out or footy fans being drunk and disorderly once more. Rightly or wrongly.

 

As such, while I persponally condone those in charge that day, I cannot blame them fully for what happened as much as the fans at that game themselves cannot be blamed. It was a disaster, not natural, of course, but lots of human error type chain of events all lead to the sickening events that unfolded, with the susbequent loss of 96 lives. Not all events can be attributed merely to human error, of course. There is sickening evidence that a copper flicked the vs towards someone shouting for help while they were being crushed!

 

What happened after, is the real injustice of it all though along with the loss of all those people, the cover up, the conspiracy, the lies, the illegal tricks and smear campaigns and of course, the absolute hell those families have had to trod to get to where we are at today  - THE TRUTH!

 

I have no experience of football back then but it seems that football as a whole had many nasty faces from racism to hooliganism and although I'm in no doubt the vast majority were good folk, even good folk, were on match day, transformed into hate filled, antagonists, be it towards other fans, the police, and even players, especially black players. Not all of course but enough to perhaps justify (at the time) the cage like pens, rough policing by the police and disdain of the media etc. I don't know...

 

Sadly, Hillsbrough happened and perhaps it had to happen for things to improve and change for the better, not just inside of football, but outside in society in general. Again, I don't know...

[Mick]

think the bradford fire was 3-4 years earler mick. That like the countless other near disasters should have been acted on sooner. Spurs away '87 as close as ive been to it.

 

It was, you're right, we were playing away to Norwich that day because I remember watching the news in Great Yarmouth.  They still should have learned from it.

[cp40]

think the bradford fire was 3-4 years earler mick. That like the countless other near disasters should have been acted on sooner. Spurs away '87 as close as ive been to it.

 

It was, you're right, we were playing away to Norwich that day because I remember watching the news in Great Yarmouth.  They still should have learned from it.

 

The toon sort of did. removed the fences that summer. installed front stair escapes from the west stand seats. and knocked it down after 2 years. no surprise that thing was a disgrace.

[Big Geordie]

The fences came down straight after the Hillsborough disaster. Next home game for us after that was Luton and I still remember thinking how weird is was watching a match with no wire fence in the way.

[Guest Slippery Sam]

I remember in the early 80's being in the Leppings lane end and had no bother before the game or during but after the game ended all the toon fans vacated the stand ll at once on a boiling hot day and given no warning by the police to stay in our seats or on terracing so we all filed out into a walled area behind the stand with the exit gates to the streets still locked so the sheffield fans could disperse which was normal policy back then and probably now,with there being no gates open everyone behind just kept coming out without knowing the situation we wereall being pushed around and at times being young i couldnt control my direction but being on a wave off my feet and that wasnt just me.A police woman was helped on to a outbuilding to get out of bother and smaller kids the same ,looking back it shows how easy this sort of thing can happen.

 

I missed this post originally.  One of my mates said her tits were out as she was getting onto the turnstiles, I didn't see that though but seem to remember that she had blonde (head) hair.

 

I was there and saw her getting lifted up onto the roof of a toilet block (I think it was). Her shirt had obviously been tugged/pulled at but there was no evidence of her being exposed.  Those who were there will remember the Owl Shop, which was basically a wooden shed full of Sheff Wed memorabilia for sale, being looted by the NUFC supporters - this was met with universal glee.

 

I wonder how Sheff Wed will come out after all this?  They had no safety certificate so are they culpable?? Is the FA culpable for allowing the game to be played there??  Will either/both become liable for umpteen millions in compensation payments??

 

What was the root cause of the disaster?  Surely the fact that the exit gate was opened in an honest attempt to relieve some crushing/congestion?  Whoever ordered that gate opened can only have done it for the best of intentions.

[magorific]

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this s***? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a s*** job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

What has fans drinking got to do with anything? 

 

People drink before going to games. people drink before going to gigs. people drink at all manner of concerts, sporting events and public gatherings. So what?

 

The report is saying no one was drunk. Well that is bollocks imo.

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this s***? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a s*** job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

Is that posted with relevance to the Hillsborough discussion?

 

Because if it is, there is absolutely no relevance at all.

 

It's the Liverpool thread, not the hillsborough thread.

 

I didn't say it was the hillsborough thread, I just wondered if it was posted with reference to what has been discussed on the last few pages. Tooj said it isn't, which clears it up.

 

It was pretty obvious it wasn't.

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this s***? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a s*** job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

It adds to the uncontrollable panic and chaos, and if you are going to have 400k of pages trying to clear everything up, at least be accurate, doesnt mean drunk or tipsy fans were to blame.

 

 

 

Not really, take a look through the last few pages for some of the offensive, irrelevant bollocks people have been posting.

 

Not that irrelevant, people may have opinions that differ to your own or have said things you dont like but it was clearly unrelated story and it just seems like you were wanting to have a go at someone, for anything.

 

Anyway, an opinion you certainly won't like: Just because there isn't proof doesn't mean it didn't happen, and how many games in the 80s did you go to where supporters were all sober?

 

 

WTF??? 450,000 documents, a 400-plus page INDEPENDENT report, unprecedented and unequivocal apologies from all relevant authorities (and The Sun), and you are STILL clinging to this s***? Dear God...

 

You are massively naive (kindest way of putting it) if you think fans in the ground hadn't been drinking. It's what football fans do, even today and especially at semi finals. last semi final I was at I was paralytic, and so was everyone I was with. A guy 10 rows up from me got carried out for shitting himself and this was before kickoff.

 

It doesn't alter the facts the police did a s*** job and they are to blame, just the independant reports isn't unquestionable, not when you start thinking about what it's like to attend a football match, especially one in the 80s. also the total clearance of any government involvement is pretty fishy.

 

Also I'm not clinging to anything, I don't really care, just find it interesting the way people are going on over this, not had a good word to say about the club, or the campaign for years, calling the scousers grief junkies are now on their high horse crusading alongside them. Its as 'sickening' as anything negative said in this thread.

 

 

 

Naive? Go back through this thread and read the opinions of every fan on here who followed football in the 80s. It is a consensus. It is a consensus based on shared experience. Your opinion is based on conjecture at best.

You'll also find that the same older heads on here have never tended to accuse Scousers of being grief junkies over Hillsborough. Why would we, when it almost happened to us?

Where did I say nobody at Hillsborough would have been drunk? Where does it say in the report that nobody at Hillsborough was drunk? It doesn't.

Were you aggressive when you were drunk at our last semi-final? Would you have been aggressive had you been 10 years older and that semi-final been at Hillsborough in 1989? No? Then why speculate - not least in the face of yesterday's report - that drinking automatically equated to aggression at Hillsborough?

Frankly, it's embarrassing that you see fit to patronise people who have first-hand experience of the authoritarian mindset which dictated the football fan experience in the 80s. Naive? Dear oh dear..

[maybe_next_year]

from nufc.com, think this is brilliantly written myself;

 

Yesterday's damning indictment of all aspects of the British establishment following the independent panel's investigation into Hillsborough, was shocking but not surprising for those of us unfortunate enough to follow football in the late 1980s. We always knew The Truth.

 

Hillsborough could have happened to any of us.

 

We often found ourselves in various perilous situations at different grounds (including St. James' Park) up and down the country where we were always one slip, one mounted police charge, one gate opening away from disaster.

 

A few years before the disaster I was in the central pen at the Leppings Lane End, packed in so tightly that breathing became an effort, my feet were off the floor and some of us were sensing the danger.

 

Thankfully, we were near enough to the tunnel to fight our way out and make our way, despite the non-existent signage, into the side pens which were virtually empty. It had been a death-trap for years.

 

My colleague was at the White Hart Lane incident, some years later, where it was nothing short of a miracle that no-one lost their lives when in 1987 United fans were almost the victim of callous policing by the Met.

 

The Park Lane end containing the travelling support was allowed to become dangerously overcrowded while the adjacent paddocks remained closed and unused.

 

The first few fans to scale the fences were arrested but gradually more joined in and fought with stewards to open gates on to the pitch. And in an eerie foretaste of the Hillsborough tragedy, seated fans above pulled some of those below to safety and disaster was averted.

 

The police's reaction was to stretch a line of officers in front of the away section which blotted out any view of the match and after the final whistle a vain attempt was made to hold the away fans in their pen.

 

A midweek game at Maine Road saw a massive crush on the stairs leading down from the away terrace on the Kippax and at one point I was jammed up against the railings staring at a 50ft drop with nowhere to go. A piece of fatigued metal or crumbling concrete would have seen dozens of us fall to our deaths.

 

Just a year after Hillsborough, our game in Sheffield at Bramall Lane had seen an almighty crush at the end of the match where once again the South Yorkshire police had lost control. Had they learned nothing? I remember writing to The Mag about it at the time.

 

But things weren't much better at St. James'. Many of the sold out games saw crowds way in excess of the official attendance figures and while some areas of the Gallowgate were packed, the "Scoreboard" section would be dangerously crammed. Kenny Wharton's testimonial game being a surprising case in point.

 

The "them and us" attitude of the police at the time meant that it never entered their heads that on that awful day, that they were watching a disaster unfold. They presumed it was a pitch invasion and disorder.

 

It says much about the way this country (still) works that all areas of society were able to collude and cover-up with senior police officers, emergency services, coroners, lawyers, journalists, politicians all in on the conspiracy to pervert the course of justice. The legal system serves victims the least.

 

In the end, it has taken an independent group outside of the establishment to uncover what happened that day and how the families of the victims of Hillsborough have found the strength to carry on their fight is incredible.

 

Five years after the tragedy Newcastle went to Anfield in a Premier League fixture on April 16th and both sets of fans paid tribute to those lost in a fitting and spontaneous show of unity. It was an extraordinarily moving occasion and like the victims of Hillsborough, will never be forgotten.

 

The Truth was always there and it's a national disgrace that it took 23 years to make those responsible unable to deny and ignore it.

 

Will justice follow? Whatever happens now, it'll be far too little, far too late.

 

Our thoughts go to our fellow football fans who suffered then and are still suffering now. You're not alone.

[Spider Jerusalem]

All i will say is that it was right to question the first report, so why can you not question this one? Both reports were made to appease certain sections of the public imho, the biased report first time round to clear the police and blame the fans, and this time its the other way round. This one rings far more true, but the complete lack of any cover up reaching the government is telling, and the lack of clarity even now in 400,000 pages where they cannot just say something like 'Some Liverpool fans were drunk, it didn't help things, but they were not the cause of the accident and deaths' just makes me wonder if its put out like this to try and just end it all, rather than actually tell the honest truth. Would Liverpool fans accept that? Probably not.

 

Why, that sums it up rather nicely really.

[Big Geordie]

Great piece from .com.

[Tooj]

http://www.uwsonline.com/forum/showthread.php/9101-Hillsborough

 

Quite an old article but a really good read.

[Mick]

 

 

I was there and saw her getting lifted up onto the roof of a toilet block (I think it was). Her shirt had obviously been tugged/pulled at but there was no evidence of her being exposed.  Those who were there will remember the Owl Shop, which was basically a wooden shed full of Sheff Wed memorabilia for sale, being looted by the NUFC supporters - this was met with universal glee.

 

I wonder how Sheff Wed will come out after all this?  They had no safety certificate so are they culpable?? Is the FA culpable for allowing the game to be played there??  Will either/both become liable for umpteen millions in compensation payments??

 

What was the root cause of the disaster?  Surely the fact that the exit gate was opened in an honest attempt to relieve some crushing/congestion?  Whoever ordered that gate opened can only have done it for the best of intentions.

 

I'm sure it was a turnstile that the police woman climbed on but it was a long time ago, it was to the left of the exit which they used to let the Liverpool fans in against Forest.

[cp40]

there was also a massive crush at the old bottom gates at SJP during the night queing for tickets for blackburn away in the cup 93. absolutely mental it was and the police were pretty useless and confrontational with the fans that night.

[Mick]

The inquest into these deaths must be re-opened and all of the evidence should be heard, they can't hide the truth anymore so anything else would be pointless.

 

It's laughable that families of the dead received around £6,000 while 14 police officers on duty received £1,200,000 in compensation.

[colinmk]

http://www.uwsonline.com/forum/showthread.php/9101-Hillsborough

 

Quite an old article but a really good read.

 

Certainly is.

[Interpolic]

http://www.uwsonline.com/forum/showthread.php/9101-Hillsborough

 

Quite an old article but a really good read.

 

Certainly is.

 

[nuneaton]

The inquest into these deaths must be re-opened and all of the evidence should be heard, they can't hide the truth anymore so anything else would be pointless.

 

It's laughable that families of the dead received around £6,000 while 14 police officers on duty received £1,200,000 in compensation.

 

I wonder if the ones who changed peoples statements will pay their compensation back?

[JH]

SteveRotheramMP @SteveRotheramMP

Just spoke to Gerry Marsden who is supporting YNWAno1 and will donate any proceeding to Hillborough charities. Great gesture. Great man.”

 

Currently 17th in the chart.

[Hughesy]

SteveRotheramMP @SteveRotheramMP

Just spoke to Gerry Marsden who is supporting YNWAno1 and will donate any proceeding to Hillborough charities. Great gesture. Great man.”

 

Currently 17th in the chart.

 

Great gesture and great cause, but I can't stand that song and could never ever bring myself to buy it.

[Interpolic]

Hillsborough starring Christopher Ecclestone on ITV3.  Hadn't realised there was a film about this.  Girlfriend in tears.

 

This film was made in 1996 and it's basically the same as what came out the other day, e.g. police negligence/cover-ups/aggressiveness, police trying to put the onus on fans being pissed, the police being the 'informants' that led to The Sun's headline, etc.  Find it surprising that this 16-year-old film portrayed something that seems quite close to the reality of the situation, yet there seemed a lot of doubt about it until last week.