Nobody Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Took the mini-series out of the thread title because it was annoying me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Then I'll try to condense. Unequivocally, Suarez addressed Evra with "negrito". This is not inherently, or even most probably, a racist slur. (Folks that speak more than one language will understand; those who don't might not. There is very often not a one-to-one correspondence of a word in one language to a word in another, especially when you consider surrounding connotations as well.) Depending on your agenda, you could translate "negrito" into English as any of (from most negative to most positive): niglet little negro little black man little black one mate darling There are no *objective* grounds for punishment. Suarez said "mate"; Evra heard "little black man" or even "niglet"; both players are correct. The fact that Suarez is a bit of a cunt notwithstanding, the worst they can fairly do is tell Suarez not to use the word again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Haris Vuckic Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Yeh I'm fairly sure he called him on of the bottom two rather than the race related ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 So four out of those are demeaning someone because of their race directly, and the other two are talking down to him in a way indirectly related to race? Don't see how those definitions help Suarez that much. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Why play the size and gender straw man? Because I never fail to wonder in situations like this that all other kinds of abuse, be they based on size, nationality, parentage etc., are entirely ignored if there is anything that can be interpreted as having racial connotations, regardless of how tenuous. ....and later the genric term straw man...You missed 'blackball'... That's a good one. But they're not straw men. I'm just emphasising the fact that words based around "black" are not inherently racist by giving some English examples that everyone knows, and hopefully agrees on. Naturally, the same goes for other languages. Particularly unfortunate in this case is that the Spanish word for black is itself a racist term in English. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 This comparison of racial abuse to other forms of abuse based on other personal characteristics is one of my pet hates to be honest. As if calling someone 'fatty' is the same as calling them something racist. The world doesn't have 100s of years of history of oppression of fat people, or ginger people, or people born outside of marriage, or whatever. The comparison is ridiculous. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Did it never occur to Suarez that Evra might interpret the term 'negrito' as an insult? Surely anyone with half a brain would realise the dangers, whatever that term might supposedly mean in Uruguay. It's very hard to protest complete innocence on this one. Possibly? Probably? Almost certainly? There's no way of knowing, which is I think it would be grossly unfair to punish him for racism. It's also quite possible that Suarez's version of events is true. I'm sure he threw all manner of insults at Evra, and appears nonplussed that Evra took offense at what Suarez considers to be the least offensive word he used (i.e. "mate"). His intentions cannot be known, and that's critical to determining whether it was racist or not. At any rate, he knows now, and by all means, throw the book at him if he says it again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Wacko, is the term 'negrito' regularly used to mean "mate" in all sections of society - and among white people too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Then I'll try to condense. Unequivocally, Suarez addressed Evra with "negrito". This is not inherently, or even most probably, a racist slur. (Folks that speak more than one language will understand; those who don't might not. There is very often not a one-to-one correspondence of a word in one language to a word in another, especially when you consider surrounding connotations as well.) Depending on your agenda, you could translate "negrito" into English as any of (from most negative to most positive): niglet little negro little black man little black one mate darling There are no *objective* grounds for punishment. Suarez said "mate"; Evra heard "little black man" or even "niglet"; both players are correct. The fact that Suarez is a bit of a cunt notwithstanding, the worst they can fairly do is tell Suarez not to use the word again. Mate, darling What a load of fuking shit. When I say shit, I mean truth or honour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzzieMandias Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Wacko's well-rehearsed and bang on message, like. This will be precisely the scousers' defence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Then I'll try to condense. Unequivocally, Suarez addressed Evra with "negrito". This is not inherently, or even most probably, a racist slur. (Folks that speak more than one language will understand; those who don't might not. There is very often not a one-to-one correspondence of a word in one language to a word in another, especially when you consider surrounding connotations as well.) Depending on your agenda, you could translate "negrito" into English as any of (from most negative to most positive): niglet little negro little black man little black one mate darling There are no *objective* grounds for punishment. Suarez said "mate"; Evra heard "little black man" or even "niglet"; both players are correct. The fact that Suarez is a bit of a cunt notwithstanding, the worst they can fairly do is tell Suarez not to use the word again. Mate, darling What a load of fuking shit. When I say shit, I mean truth or honour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I don't know if it's true or not but it does sound hilarious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themanupstairs Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Did it never occur to Suarez that Evra might interpret the term 'negrito' as an insult? Surely anyone with half a brain would realise the dangers, whatever that term might supposedly mean in Uruguay. It's very hard to protest complete innocence on this one. Possibly? Probably? Almost certainly? There's no way of knowing, which is I think it would be grossly unfair to punish him for racism. It's also quite possible that Suarez's version of events is true. I'm sure he threw all manner of insults at Evra, and appears nonplussed that Evra took offense at what Suarez considers to be the least offensive word he used (i.e. "mate"). His intentions cannot be known, and that's critical to determining whether it was racist or not. At any rate, he knows now, and by all means, throw the book at him if he says it again. Can you use the words "sexy bitch", "puto", "bastard" or any other term of endearment in whatever language context, in a professional office meeting between 2 companies? Can't imagine an account executive standing up to present a sales pitch starting out with "Alright then you sexy bitches/putos/bastards, here's what we can do for YOU"! Bottom line, it's unprofessional regardless of the context. The extent of punishment is the only thing to debate here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Really like Joe Cole, his interview on bbc sport is decent. Hope he does well and either stays on the continent or comes back and leaves liverpool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leffe186 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Surely a goal for Dalglish here. Beating Chelsea away, plus looking pretty good doing so? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 This comparison of racial abuse to other forms of abuse based on other personal characteristics is one of my pet hates to be honest. As if calling someone 'fatty' is the same as calling them something racist. The world doesn't have 100s of years of history of oppression of fat people, or ginger people, or people born outside of marriage, or whatever. The comparison is ridiculous. And how does that make it less bad for those poor overweight/ginger/illegitimate sods who are copping all that stick? Yeah, I'm biased: I spent the whole of grammar school with the nickname "Northern Bastard" (thanks Hale and Pace). It wasn't used affectionately, and while the teachers didn't use that particular name, they often ribbed me about my origins, too (What did he say? I don't understand him! I think you mean <insert word that southerners pronounce differently>.) Not as bad as "black bastard" by any stretch, to be sure, but I will never understand or accept why this kind of shit is seen as perfectly acceptable, when it would never have crossed the minds of any of those kids or teachers to openly call one of the Asian or black guys in our year "brown/black bastard". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Did it never occur to Suarez that Evra might interpret the term 'negrito' as an insult? Surely anyone with half a brain would realise the dangers, whatever that term might supposedly mean in Uruguay. It's very hard to protest complete innocence on this one. Possibly? Probably? Almost certainly? There's no way of knowing, which is I think it would be grossly unfair to punish him for racism. It's also quite possible that Suarez's version of events is true. I'm sure he threw all manner of insults at Evra, and appears nonplussed that Evra took offense at what Suarez considers to be the least offensive word he used (i.e. "mate"). His intentions cannot be known, and that's critical to determining whether it was racist or not. At any rate, he knows now, and by all means, throw the book at him if he says it again. Can you use the words "sexy bitch", "puto", "bastard" or any other term of endearment in whatever language context, in a professional office meeting between 2 companies? Can't imagine an account executive standing up to present a sales pitch starting out with "Alright then you sexy bitches/putos/bastards, here's what we can do for YOU"! Bottom line, it's unprofessional regardless of the context. The extent of punishment is the only thing to debate here. Which is a perfectly valid argument *if* you're dead against any kind of sledging/banter in football games, and you think players should conduct themselves on the pitch as directors should in the boardroom. This doesn't, however, appear to be a common attitude. In fact, the only case of a player copping criticism for non-racist abuse of an opponent I can think of was the Zidane/Materazzi incident. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Materazzi was saying "You're mother is such a darling, mate." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I'm pretty sure that legally, it is how the comment was taken that is the issue. Thereore if Evra didn't take the comment to be one of endearment (unlikely on a football field lets be honest) then Suarez should face some punishment. Is it as bad as Terry's appears to be? No. But is it ungentlemany comduct at best? Yes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MW Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 is calling someone a black cunt illegal? as in could that person in the street ring up the police and have you arrested? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themanupstairs Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Did it never occur to Suarez that Evra might interpret the term 'negrito' as an insult? Surely anyone with half a brain would realise the dangers, whatever that term might supposedly mean in Uruguay. It's very hard to protest complete innocence on this one. Possibly? Probably? Almost certainly? There's no way of knowing, which is I think it would be grossly unfair to punish him for racism. It's also quite possible that Suarez's version of events is true. I'm sure he threw all manner of insults at Evra, and appears nonplussed that Evra took offense at what Suarez considers to be the least offensive word he used (i.e. "mate"). His intentions cannot be known, and that's critical to determining whether it was racist or not. At any rate, he knows now, and by all means, throw the book at him if he says it again. Can you use the words "sexy bitch", "puto", "b******" or any other term of endearment in whatever language context, in a professional office meeting between 2 companies? Can't imagine an account executive standing up to present a sales pitch starting out with "Alright then you sexy bitches/putos/bastards, here's what we can do for YOU"! Bottom line, it's unprofessional regardless of the context. The extent of punishment is the only thing to debate here. Which is a perfectly valid argument *if* you're dead against any kind of sledging/banter in football games, and you think players should conduct themselves on the pitch as directors should in the boardroom. This doesn't, however, appear to be a common attitude. In fact, the only case of a player copping criticism for non-racist abuse of an opponent I can think of was the Zidane/Materazzi incident. Oh I absolutely am all for banter in football games. But this isn't an arena for sunday leaguers and laymen. This is professional sport, and all the players know there are cameras all around them picking up on their every breath. Claiming ignorance of this is not an excuse, and I doubt neither Suarez nor Terry will claim otherwise. If he admits to using the word, his intentions are irrelevant. One cannot prove Suarez to be an odious little cunt, but this is the perception of many in the game, including myself and some of his own supporters. The decision to punish him, and for how long, will be a subjective one as you can't prove his intentions. I suppose he may be punished for using the word rather than for being "a racist". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 This comparison of racial abuse to other forms of abuse based on other personal characteristics is one of my pet hates to be honest. As if calling someone 'fatty' is the same as calling them something racist. The world doesn't have 100s of years of history of oppression of fat people, or ginger people, or people born outside of marriage, or whatever. The comparison is ridiculous. And how does that make it less bad for those poor overweight/ginger/illegitimate sods who are copping all that stick? Yeah, I'm biased: I spent the whole of grammar school with the nickname "Northern Bastard" (thanks Hale and Pace). It wasn't used affectionately, and while the teachers didn't use that particular name, they often ribbed me about my origins, too (What did he say? I don't understand him! I think you mean <insert word that southerners pronounce differently>.) Not as bad as "black bastard" by any stretch, to be sure, but I will never understand or accept why this kind of shit is seen as perfectly acceptable, when it would never have crossed the minds of any of those kids or teachers to openly call one of the Asian or black guys in our year "brown/black bastard". All personal abuse is bad and can cause pain, I'm not arguing against that. And it shouldn't be seen as acceptable at all, obviously. I'm just saying that abusing someone by suggesting their ethnic origin is inferior to yours is a much more fundamental form of belittling them, and is also supporting with generations and generations of oppression. I cant believe you equate the two so exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 is calling someone a black cunt illegal? as in could that person in the street ring up the police and have you arrested? If he was a copper I don't think he'd take too kindly to it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JH Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 is calling someone a black c*** illegal? as in could that person in the street ring up the police and have you arrested? Any crime committed against someone because of their race is classed as a 'racially aggravated' or 'racially motivated' offence. For example, someone may be threatened with violence or assaulted because of their race. You don't have to be physically attacked or injured to be a victim of a race hate crime. You may be subjected to abuse that you find offensive; it's also illegal for anyone to use threatening and abusive language or hand out flyers or leaflets that could lead other people to commit a criminal act against someone because of their race. If it's proven that the offender's main motivation was based on prejudice or their hatred of another race, then the sentence can be more severe than for the same offence without a racial motivation. Source Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Think it stays 4-4 Yeah think that's fair. If they win the next one or get a respectable draw against City then a goal to KD. Was pretty close to giving them a goal as they really had good spells against Chelsea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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