The Liverpool Thread

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Dalglish didn't really buy success at Blackburn because at that time all the clubs around them during that era (i.e. the ones challenging) like ourselves, man Utd, Liverpool etc were all spending similar ammounts. I remember reading a few years back how Jack Walker wasn't really a sugar daddy as such. More like Sky were - to most clubs. That and fans spending more and more money on their respective clubs. He won the title on merit and didn't buy it as such because he was just spending similar to what their then rivals were spending. What he did was assemble a very strong well ballance side throughout with Flowers, Hendry, Batty and Shearer a title winning spine equiverlent to your Cech, Terry, Essien and Drogba spine that won the title last season.

 

Only Chelsea lately and possibly Man City in the future if they win anything have or will buy success.

 

I remember when we were buying Barton for a world record fee for a defender and Shearer and the media saying how we were not only being bankrolled by a sugar daddy in Sir John Hall but also trying to buy success yet those players were bought from money generated by the club through us lot and TV money and we weren't even the top spenders back then, Man Utd were and later on Chelsea under Vialli. Boro once spent more than us. When we won the first division titlle back in '93 I think West Ham and Derby spend more than we did.

 

Back in those days all top-flight clubs were spending fortunes as were many first dividison clubs. Birmingham spent 1.5m on Ricky Otto for fuck sake (IIRC)

[Guest Howaythetoon]

By the way that's why I would never begrudge Man Utd their success because they do it via the funds the club generates from TV and its fans. In many ways they are a model club, one Chelsea and Man City could only ever dream of becoming. Clubs like those need to be bankrolled to achieve long-term sustainable success because in reality they are not truly big clubs. We are neither but we have the potential to be.

[wacko]

We got pretty fair in the Champions League with a lot of average players too, TBF.

 

It's do-able if you're organised and concentrating on the CL. What a lot of people fail to consider is that the strongest teams are usually fighting on two fronts: league and CL. It's a rare and special side that can compete seriously in both, especially when nominally lesser teams are concentrating 100% on the CL. More often than not, league leaders that reach the CL final are walking their domestic league and can afford to rest players and devote more time to CL preparation.

 

Saying that the 2005 Liverpool side was shit because we were so far behind Chelsea in the league is to totally miss that very important point. We were only aiming for 4th place in the league so we could concentrate resources on the CL. Milan were playing exactly the same game.

 

When we played Chelsea in the 2005 semis, they were 30-odd points ahead in the league but knackered and injury-hit from their balls-out league push, while we were at full strength and fitness, but had sacrificed league points to concentrate on the CL.

[Wullie]

We've had a shitty attitude to cup competitions for a long time, from top to bottom. Weak sides, sub-par performances, fans only too happy to see us binned out to "concentrate" on another fruitless league campaign.

[wacko]

Dalglish didn't really buy success at Blackburn because at that time all the clubs around them during that era (i.e. the ones challenging) like ourselves, man Utd, Liverpool etc were all spending similar ammounts. I remember reading a few years back how Jack Walker wasn't really a sugar daddy as such. More like Sky were - to most clubs. That and fans spending more and more money on their respective clubs. He won the title on merit and didn't buy it as such because he was just spending similar to what their then rivals were spending. What he did was assemble a very strong well ballance side throughout with Flowers, Hendry, Batty and Shearer a title winning spine equiverlent to your Cech, Terry, Essien and Drogba spine that won the title last season.

 

Only Chelsea lately and possibly Man City in the future if they win anything have or will buy success.

 

I remember when we were buying Barton for a world record fee for a defender and Shearer and the media saying how we were not only being bankrolled by a sugar daddy in Sir John Hall but also trying to buy success yet those players were bought from money generated by the club through us lot and TV money and we weren't even the top spenders back then, Man Utd were and later on Chelsea under Vialli. Boro once spent more than us. When we won the first division titlle back in '93 I think West Ham and Derby spend more than we did.

 

Back in those days all top-flight clubs were spending fortunes as were many first dividison clubs. Birmingham spent 1.5m on Ricky Otto for fuck sake (IIRC)

 

He didn't "buy" the league by outspending others, but he was still pumping in much more cash than the club could generate, so that tarnishes the achievement for me, just as with Chelsea's league titles. I consider it similar to doping.

 

By the way that's why I would never begrudge Man Utd their success because they do it via the funds the club generates from TV and its fans. In many ways they are a model club, one Chelsea and Man City could only ever dream of becoming. Clubs like those need to be bankrolled to achieve long-term sustainable success because in reality they are not truly big clubs. We are neither but we have the potential to be.

 

Agree 100% re Man Utd (except the model club bit, but that's down to the Glazers). You can't begrudge them their success because they did it entirely off their own back. Still hate 'em, though

 

I don't believe for a second that NUFC could be in the same league size-wise as Man Utd. Bigger than City or Chelsea, but not Man Utd.

 

They have the kind of global cachet that only Real and Brazil can match. Barca are getting up there thanks to their current side, and clubs like Bayern, Ajax, Milan and us have the kind of legend borne of great teams past that gives us the potential to maybe get up to that level, but not if we don't put on a show for the younger generations pretty sharpish.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

We've had a shitty attitude to cup competitions for a long time, from top to bottom. Weak sides, sub-par performances, fans only too happy to see us binned out to "concentrate" on another fruitless league campaign.

 

Agreed. Its a disgrace really. For me we should put everything into winning the league cup, make it our sole ambition never mind anything else because this no trophy in fuck knows how long thing is like a smothering pillow at times for this club. It pisses me off no end watching clubs like Boro or Birmingham win a cup or average sides at the time like Liverpool winning the CL. We could have our greatest ever side ever with the best players in the world and we'd still not win a single tin pot. Grrrrrrrrrrr.

[Beren]

To those suggesting we "had a go" at the cups this season - you did see the fit players remaining on the pitch at the end of the Everton game, right??

 

The only mistake we did make in the cups was trying to salvage something against Stevenage by throwing Tiote on as a sub and losing Tiote for the next three games.

 

It was bad. And so it probably couldn't have been any worse if we'd given it a go in the cups - what's your point?

 

My point is it could very easily have been worse. Not sure why you seem to think it "probably" couldn't have been or what "probably" is based on.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

He didn't "buy" the league by outspending others, but he was still pumping in much more cash than the club could generate, so that tarnishes the achievement for me, just as with Chelsea's league titles. I consider it similar to doping.

 

I don't think he did you know, they were getting full gates, shit loads of money off Sky and paying for players in installments not to mention lower wages which is far easier when you're talking about a player costing 5m which Sutton did. I remember when they won the league I think Shearer was on something like 20K a week which was obviously huge back then but on lesser income today Blackburn probably pay that to most of their players now. I think they spent within their means as much as anyone else did.

 

 

Agree 100% re Man Utd (except the model club bit, but that's down to the Glazers). You can't begrudge them their success because they did it entirely off their own back. Still hate 'em, though

 

I don't believe for a second that NUFC could be in the same league size-wise as Man Utd. Bigger than City or Chelsea, but not Man Utd.

 

They have the kind of global cachet that only Real and Brazil can match. Barca are getting up there thanks to their current side, and clubs like Bayern, Ajax, Milan and us have the kind of legend borne of great teams past that gives us the potential to maybe get up to that level, but not if we don't put on a show for the younger generations pretty sharpish.

 

Oh I don't mean we could become as big as Man Utd, for me they are as you say are in the very very top bracket which I'd put only Barca, AC Milan and Real alongside if I'm being honest with the likes of Liverpool, Inter etc. just below. Where we could be us just below that or alongside.

 

I think our boat sailed in the early 90s anyway regarding competing with Man Utd.

 

Sadly in the modern game history and tradition means nowt now anyway. Liverpool are huge but unless you start dominating and winning the league and CL on a regular basis the next generation will regard a club like Man City or Chelsea higher up if they keep winning things which Man City will start doing soon I feel. That's the modern game though, history, tradition, gates, they mean fuck all. Look at us, we cannot even keep our own Geordie number 9. When a club like Newcastle cannot keep hold of its local lads then the game is fucked.

 

I'm glad Dalglish is back at Liverpool and back in the game, he's an honest manager, a good bloke who probably does belong in the past but if he somehow makes it now it will be good for the game I feel.

 

Like a young Geordie lad banging them in for the Toon at the Gallowgate...

 

Me, I'm waiting for the downfall of football in its current guise or rather hoping for it.

 

I don't even like it no more.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Some good points HTT, it's sad how important a rich backer has become in the modern game, and how much the spirit of the game has been damaged.

 

Or maybe I'm just getting old!

[Optimistic Nut]

The Carling Cup is there to be won for clubs like ours. We just haven't been good enough or brave enought to make a decent fist of it in recent years. It's mostly down to management.

 

It's only really last season (in the Championship), and this season (first season back up) that I've seen us play significantly weakened cup sides though tbf.

[Dokko]

The Carling Cup is there to be won for clubs like ours. We just haven't been good enough or brave enought to make a decent fist of it in recent years. It's mostly down to management.

 

It's only really last season (in the Championship), and this season (first season back up) that I've seen us play significantly weakened cup sides though tbf.

 

We would have been safe by now and pushing for Europe had we played a weakened side against Stevenage.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Some good points HTT, it's sad how important a rich backer has become in the modern game, and how much the spirit of the game has been damaged.

 

Or maybe I'm just getting old!

 

I keep thinking that myself but I'm only 31, I should be loving the game but it either pisses me of or bores me to tears. I honestly don't like it these days. I don't even like NUFC or what it has become these days. I can't stand our manager for example because I just know he's a cunt and played some part in Hughton leaving. The players? I'd love to feel some love for say Enrique but I just know he'll be off soon when a better deal comes up for him. I don't even like a huge section of my fellow fans. There isn't a lot to like. I like when we score a goal and when we win. In those moments I feel real love for the club and game and think fuck yeah that's what its about. Then we dismiss our manager, or lose our Geordie number 9, or a set of mongs parade outside SJP for Sky or we dismiss the league cup as a nothing trophy and so on and so on. Outside of that I watch Man City spend over 20m on James fucking Milner. I could go on. The worst thing though is it has made me a miserable bastard of a footy fan, a bitter twisted numpty who wishes someone from my own City nothing but abject failure at his new club. Liverpoool. Home of the fucking scousers. Cretins with blood on their hands. Unfunny scruffy cunts. God I hate them. Why I don't know. Oh that's why. Football makes me hate them.

 

I'll tell you what though. Whenever I see this http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/nechronical/apr2009/9/3/nufc-crest-899762131.gif my heart beats with bloody great big pride. There's fuck all wrong with that badge. I would wear that with pride anywhere. I wouldn't put a player's name on the back of a shirt though.

 

Back to Dalglish. I should hate him. He took an entertaining team full of stars just a bit of tinkering away from winning trophies to finishing in mid-table with Ian fucking Rush on our bench and John Barnes on the flank playing for 0-0 draws in an FA Cup final at Wembley and that's not to mention how he has been welcomed back into the game and back to his former club, a place where you should never go, go back to your old club because you're doomed to fail you know, by all and sundry as the best thing ever yet wor Kevin Keegan gets no welcome and metaphorically spat on and all the other crap....

 

Its not fair is it?

 

Anyway... I don't hate Dalglish because he's a decent bloke, a proper footballing bloke who if you read about Hillsbrough and how he conducted himself, stands up against any claims he's a cunt or whatever. Not to mention he has nowt but good things to say about NUFC, the city, us as fans and that. I hate Liverpool and am propelled to want them to screw up massively but do you know what, I hope he does well.

 

For me, the game needs it.

 

I hoped KK's return would give the game the 'thing' it needs, you know some fairytale magic stuff, but alas, this is NUFC....

[Ikon]

only 31? Man you're old

[biggs]

Some good points HTT, it's sad how important a rich backer has become in the modern game, and how much the spirit of the game has been damaged.

 

Or maybe I'm just getting old!

 

I keep thinking that myself but I'm only 31, I should be loving the game but it either pisses me of or bores me to tears. I honestly don't like it these days. I don't even like NUFC or what it has become these days. I can't stand our manager for example because I just know he's a c*** and played some part in Hughton leaving. The players? I'd love to feel some love for say Enrique but I just know he'll be off soon when a better deal comes up for him. I don't even like a huge section of my fellow fans. There isn't a lot to like. I like when we score a goal and when we win. In those moments I feel real love for the club and game and think f*** yeah that's what its about. Then we dismiss our manager, or lose our Geordie number 9, or a set of mongs parade outside SJP for Sky or we dismiss the league cup as a nothing trophy and so on and so on. Outside of that I watch Man City spend over 20m on James f***ing Milner. I could go on. The worst thing though is it has made me a miserable b****** of a footy fan, a bitter twisted numpty who wishes someone from my own City nothing but abject failure at his new club. Liverpoool. Home of the f***ing scousers. Cretins with blood on their hands. Unfunny scruffy c***s. God I hate them. Why I don't know. Oh that's why. Football makes me hate them.

 

I'll tell you what though. Whenever I see this http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/nechronical/apr2009/9/3/nufc-crest-899762131.gif my heart beats with bloody great big pride. There's f*** all wrong with that badge. I would wear that with pride anywhere. I wouldn't put a player's name on the back of a shirt though.

 

Back to Dalglish. I should hate him. He took an entertaining team full of stars just a bit of tinkering away from winning trophies to finishing in mid-table with Ian f***ing Rush on our bench and John Barnes on the flank playing for 0-0 draws in an FA Cup final at Wembley and that's not to mention how he has been welcomed back into the game and back to his former club, a place where you should never go, go back to your old club because you're doomed to fail you know, by all and sundry as the best thing ever yet wor Kevin Keegan gets no welcome and metaphorically spat on and all the other crap....

 

Its not fair is it?

 

Anyway... I don't hate Dalglish because he's a decent bloke, a proper footballing bloke who if you read about Hillsbrough and how he conducted himself, stands up against any claims he's a c*** or whatever. Not to mention he has nowt but good things to say about NUFC, the city, us as fans and that. I hate Liverpool and am propelled to want them to screw up massively but do you know what, I hope he does well.

 

For me, the game needs it.

 

I hoped KK's return would give the game the 'thing' it needs, you know some fairytale magic stuff, but alas, this is NUFC....

Fair weather fan and a dogs not just for Xmas etc 

[JH]

The last time we gave a decent showing in the cup was the FA Cup under Souness.

 

That tells you all you need to know. Embarassing that we just roll over.

[Disco]

The last time we gave a decent showing in the cup was the FA Cup under Souness.

 

That tells you all you need to know. Embarassing that we just roll over.

 

I thought we were pretty good at Stamford Bridge like but I'm a fool.

 

We're just not a cup team. '98 we only played Everton of note in the cup run. '99 we were drawn at home every round.

[JH]

The last time we gave a decent showing in the cup was the FA Cup under Souness.

 

That tells you all you need to know. Embarassing that we just roll over.

 

I thought we were pretty good at Stamford Bridge like but I'm a fool.

 

We're just not a cup team. '98 we only played Everton of note in the cup run. '99 we were drawn at home every round.

 

We were good at Stamford Bridge. But every second was worth it for our performance in the next round ...

[Beren]

To those suggesting we "had a go" at the cups this season - you did see the fit players remaining on the pitch at the end of the Everton game, right??

 

The only mistake we did make in the cups was trying to salvage something against Stevenage by throwing Tiote on as a sub and losing Tiote for the next three games.

 

It was bad. And so it probably couldn't have been any worse if we'd given it a go in the cups - what's your point?

 

My point is it could very easily have been worse. Not sure why you seem to think it "probably" couldn't have been or what "probably" is based on.

 

Bumped for JH.

 

You were worried about our home form meaning relegation for the first half of the season - but now you think we should have attacked one or both of the cups?

[JH]

To those suggesting we "had a go" at the cups this season - you did see the fit players remaining on the pitch at the end of the Everton game, right??

 

The only mistake we did make in the cups was trying to salvage something against Stevenage by throwing Tiote on as a sub and losing Tiote for the next three games.

 

It was bad. And so it probably couldn't have been any worse if we'd given it a go in the cups - what's your point?

 

My point is it could very easily have been worse. Not sure why you seem to think it "probably" couldn't have been or what "probably" is based on.

 

Bumped for JH.

 

You were worried about our home form meaning relegation for the first half of the season - but now you think we should have attacked one or both of the cups?

 

What do you mean "now" I think? I was saying at the time that we should have been attacking the cups. We should always attack the cups, otherwise what's the point of being in them?

[Beren]

Okay, so if I understand this correctly - in a season where Man Utd, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea and Tottenham were all vying for three domestic trophies...

 

...on our first season back to the Premier League, not knowing the luck of the draw, having our right back as cover for our left back, and James Perch as cover for him, and Smith and Nolan as our central midfield starters and Peter Lovenkrands as our third choice striker...

 

...you would have been okay with, nay!, encouraged us to try and go for a cup run and avoid the above five teams for as long as possible... risking replays, injuries, suspensions, media despair and possible relegation?

 

If your answer to that is yes, then fine - I have nothing further to say.

 

I would contend that we have had an almighty successful season thus far. Looking at what Birmingham achieved is stupid - given that:

 

a) well, they just comfortably lost 3-1 at home to West Brom and us (with the formidable Lovenkrands leading the line) and are heading towards a dark place

 

b) they have eleven injuries

 

c) there was no guaranteed trade-off between them committing to the cups in exchange for the league, and they just as easily could have been knocked out in the semis, quarters or whenever

 

The fact that they did win it is actually irrelevant to the gamble they took.

[Parky]

Okay, so if I understand this correctly - in a season where Man Utd, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea and Tottenham were all vying for three domestic trophies...

 

...on our first season back to the Premier League, not knowing the luck of the draw, having our right back as cover for our left back, and James Perch as cover for him, and Smith and Nolan as our central midfield starters and Peter Lovenkrands as our third choice striker...

 

...you would have been okay with, nay!, encouraged us to try and go for a cup run and avoid the above five teams for as long as possible... risking replays, injuries, suspensions, media despair and possible relegation?

 

If your answer to that is yes, then fine - I have nothing further to say.

 

I would contend that we have had an almighty successful season thus far. Looking at what Birmingham achieved is stupid - given that:

 

a) well, they just comfortably lost 3-1 at home to West Brom and us (with the formidable Lovenkrands leading the line) and are heading towards a dark place

 

b) they have eleven injuries

 

c) there was no guaranteed trade-off between them committing to the cups in exchange for the league, and they just as easily could have been knocked out in the semis, quarters or whenever

 

The fact that they did win it is actually irrelevant to the gamble they took.

 

Agree. Taking into consideration all the pitfalls we've had/will have a good season as long as we stay up.

 

Sticking with my prediction of 12th.

[wormy]

Just saw Rafa on SSN talking about how he hopes to return to Anfield one day.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

Made me laugh like, be like Keegan. 

[wormy]

Would most Liverpool fans be happy with his return? After King Kenny's had his second go, of course.

[TheGuv]

He's only been gone 9 month man