The Liverpool Thread

[toon25]

Myself and a group of pals may use racist terms within our group (mix of Chinese, Indians and Pakistanis), however, we know it is in jest.

 

Similarly, 'negrito' might be used affectionately amongst a group of friends, but when you're on opposing teams in a heated match and you've been narking at each other throughout the match, I'm afraid there's only one intent in Suarez's mind.

 

Absolutely. Lots of words can be offensive depending upon the context in which they are used. I've no doubt that on a football pitch, in the heat of battle, 'negrito' will not have been used affectionately. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Do you punish Suarez on the basis that Evra found it personally offensive, or do you punish him on the basis that he crossed a line which 9 from 10 people would find universally unacceptable?

[Nobody]

Suarez has been in Europe long enough to know that using the word in any way is going to stir up emotions. It's not like he moved from Uruguay the day before the game, if he indeed did say that, he knew full well that Evra was going to take offence.

[Ryan_Taylor]

Suarez is a cunt. Had this coming to him. Cunt

[Guest ykmkmdd]

Suarez is a cunt. Had this coming to him. Cunt

 

Fair point, well made.

[Cajun]

Suarez is a cunt. Had this coming to him. Cunt

 

Fair point, well made.

 

 

If there was one player I could pick at the moment to face a lengthy ban it would this cock.

[Sifu]

Suarez is a c***. Had this coming to him. c***

 

Fair point, well made.

 

 

If there was one player I could pick at the moment to face a lengthy ban it would this cock.

 

Same.

[wacko]

I am sure i read on there something along the lines of what is wrong with the word negro anyway by some poster with a chinese sounding name ? Any one else see this ? Am i making this up, it seems to have gone now. The only thing i will say is that if there is evidence it should be released.

 

I think as far as evidence goes, it's very much Evra's word against Suarez's.

 

That said, Suarez doesn't deny that he used Spanish N-words to Evra; he denies that they are racist or offensive (which is realistically the case).

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/nov/16/luis-suarez-liverpool-fa-racism

in Uruguay it is common practice for people to use derivatives of "negro" in a non-offensive way. "Negrito", for example, is a word that is often used without being deemed as racist.

 

I've no idea how well Evra understands Spanish. He will certainly have got the gist of anything Suarez said, but it's unlikely that he's familiar with the nuances of South American Spanish.

 

I think the most probable truth of it is that Suarez used a word or words that Uruguayans don't consider to have racial connotations, which Evra, for lack of familiarity with idiomatic Uruguayan, understood as racist.

 

If that is the case (and you are not generally anti-"banter"), I think the worst you can accuse Suarez of is a poor choice of words (or perfect choice of words, depending on your attitude to him).

 

You can't go around punishing people for using words that sound like bad words. Especially foreign words that sound like bad words in a different language. Huuuuuge can of worms.

 

what on earth are you talking about? Racism is about making an issue of someone's skin colour/ethnic origin/other things. Suarez had no need to mention it at all on a football pitch.

 

Wrong. Absolutely wrong. Racism is treating someone's skin colour (or other genetic race marker) as a *negative* thing.

 

Mentioning someone's skin colour is not automatically racist. If that were the case, then Suarez should be up on charges of sexism and sizeism for mentioning Evra's height and gender, too.

 

Myself and a group of pals may use racist terms within our group (mix of Chinese, Indians and Pakistanis), however, we know it is in jest.

 

Similarly, 'negrito' might be used affectionately amongst a group of friends, but when you're on opposing teams in a heated match and you've been narking at each other throughout the match, I'm afraid there's only one intent in Suarez's mind.

 

Absolutely. Lots of words can be offensive depending upon the context in which they are used. I've no doubt that on a football pitch, in the heat of battle, 'negrito' will not have been used affectionately. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Do you punish Suarez on the basis that Evra found it personally offensive, or do you punish him on the basis that he crossed a line which 9 from 10 people would find universally unacceptable?

 

Of course it wasn't used affectionately, but that doesn't mean it was intended as a racist comment. From Wikipedia:

 

However, in Spanish-speaking countries such as Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay where there are few people of African origin and appearance, negro (negra for females) is commonly used to refer to partners, close friends[13] or people in general independent of skin color. In Venezuela the word negro is similarly used, despite its large African descent population.

 

It is similar to the use of the word "nigga" in urban communities in the United States. For example, one might say to a friend, "Negro ¿Como andas? (literally "Hey, black one, how are you doing?"). In this case, the diminutive negrito is used, as a term of endearment meaning "pal", "buddy" or "friend". Negrito has come to be used to refer to a person of any ethnicity or color, and also can have a sentimental or romantic connotation similar to "sweetheart," or "dear" in English

 

So, it means "mate" or "darling". Suarez called Evra "nigga", Evra heard "nigger".

 

Myself and a group of pals may use racist terms within our group (mix of Chinese, Indians and Pakistanis), however, we know it is in jest.

 

Similarly, 'negrito' might be used affectionately amongst a group of friends, but when you're on opposing teams in a heated match and you've been narking at each other throughout the match, I'm afraid there's only one intent in Suarez's mind.

 

Absolutely. Lots of words can be offensive depending upon the context in which they are used. I've no doubt that on a football pitch, in the heat of battle, 'negrito' will not have been used affectionately. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Do you punish Suarez on the basis that Evra found it personally offensive, or do you punish him on the basis that he crossed a line which 9 from 10 people would find universally unacceptable?

 

And this is the heart of it. You can't accuse a person of racism for offence taken by someone else to a comment they don't fully understand.

 

If a black person takes offense at being described as "niggardly", that's largely their problem for not understanding the word. The worst you can accuse the person using the word of is a (deliberately) bad choice of words. Not racism.

 

Suarez has been in Europe long enough to know that using the word in any way is going to stir up emotions. It's not like he moved from Uruguay the day before the game, if he indeed did say that, he knew full well that Evra was going to take offence.

 

Europe is not one uniform place. Racism is endemic in places like Italy and Spain (hell, they even had the national basketball team pulling slanty eyes for an official photo before the Beijing olympics). It's a big problem in East Germany, too. The UK, on the other hand, is over-sensitive to racism and sees it everywhere, often to the detriment of other forms of discrimination/prejudice.

 

Suarez is a cunt. Had this coming to him. Cunt

 

This I can understand.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

If it's similar to the word "nigga", then no white player should be using it to refer to a black player unless they know them very very well and the use is well established in their group, particularly if they are opponents in the heat of a big game.

 

Whether or not Suarez was just ignorant-racist or deliberate-racist I don't know, FWIW I think the former is "better" than the latter, in that at least I didn't know he was abusing someone.

[Frazzle]

Suarez has been in Europe long enough to know that using the word in any way is going to stir up emotions. It's not like he moved from Uruguay the day before the game, if he indeed did say that, he knew full well that Evra was going to take offence.

 

Exactly. 

[wacko]

If it's similar to the word "nigga", then no white player should be using it to refer to a black player unless they know them very very well and the use is well established in their group, particularly if they are opponents in the heat of a big game.

 

No, they probably shouldn't. But it doesn't make them racist if they do. Stupid? Perhaps. A bit of a cock? Well, we all know Suarez is that.

 

Whether or not Suarez was just ignorant-racist or deliberate-racist I don't know, FWIW I think the former is "better" than the latter, in that at least I didn't know he was abusing someone.

 

If we accept that it was "ignorant-racist", as you put it, who is actually being ignorant?

 

We have a bunch of people who don't speak Spanish passing judgement on whether or not a Spanish word is racist. These people are not qualified to make that judgement.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Well, a Spanish word possibly used by a Uruguayan against a Frenchman in England, I haven't got a clue.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you say racist things then you are being racist. Whether that makes you A RACIST I don't know or care, as that's a pointless judgement anyway.

 

IMO we all have tribal and instinctive reactions against people who are different from us, that's normal. The mark of civilisation is that we can use our reasoning minds to correct ourselves before we actually act on these in-built and perfectly natural prejudices.

[Frazzle]

If it's similar to the word "nigga", then no white player should be using it to refer to a black player unless they know them very very well and the use is well established in their group, particularly if they are opponents in the heat of a big game.

 

No, they probably shouldn't. But it doesn't make them racist if they do. Stupid? Perhaps. A bit of a cock? Well, we all know Suarez is that.

 

Whether or not Suarez was just ignorant-racist or deliberate-racist I don't know, FWIW I think the former is "better" than the latter, in that at least I didn't know he was abusing someone.

 

If we accept that it was "ignorant-racist", as you put it, who is actually being ignorant?

 

We have a bunch of people who don't speak Spanish passing judgement on whether or not a Spanish word is racist. These people are not qualified to make that judgement.

 

You don't need to know Spanish to pass judgement.  As Nobody says, Suarez would've known by now that people in Europe don't use words like this.  Whether its an insult in Uruguay or not is irrelevant, Suarez would've know what he was doing.

 

He's a pathetic wretch of a man anyway and should've been banned/sent off enough times already.

[Foluwashola]

How thick are you suggesting Suarez is Wacko?

 

Suarez knew exactly what he was doing.

[Guest Phil K]

Suarez is a c***. Had this coming to him. c***

 

Fair point, well made.

Doesn't need to be long winded and flowery to be accurate, though. 

[mattypnufc]

Fuck that bucktoothed, could chew the future bellend.

[Guest Phil K]

Absolutely. Lots of words can be offensive depending upon the context in which they are used. I've no doubt that on a football pitch, in the heat of battle, 'negrito' will not have been used affectionately. I suppose it's all a matter of perspective. Do you punish Suarez on the basis that Evra found it personally offensive, or do you punish him on the basis that he crossed a line which 9 from 10 people would find universally unacceptable?

Well put.

[Dr Venkman]

Wacko- I'm not gonna start a quote tree,but did you miss the bit where I said 'making an issue' of someone's skin colour? Is Evra a black man? Yes. Is there any context in which this should be brought up on a football pitch? No.

 

It's you that's absolutely wrong.

 

There is no reason for Suarez to be mentioning it,unless you're gonna tell me they were having a debate on race? I understand what you're getting at and I do happen to think that 'being offended' is a state that people all to quickly fall into these days,but there's no excuse for bringing it up in this case,my friend of skin colour unknown.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Wacko- I'm not gonna start a quote tree,but did you miss the bit where I said 'making an issue' of someone's skin colour? Is Evra a black man? Yes. Is there any context in which this should be brought up on a football pitch? No.

 

It's you that's absolutely wrong.

 

There is no reason for Suarez to be mentioning it,unless you're gonna tell me they were having a debate on race? I understand what you're getting at and I do happen to think that 'being offended' is a state that people all to quickly fall into these days,but there's no excuse for bringing it up in this case,my friend of skin colour unknown.

 

Think this is the most impotant point TBH.

 

Even if Suarez didn't "mean to be racist", why is he even thinking to notice and comment on Evra's colour as the first thing to have a go at him about? And when he instinctively thought of it, why didn't he use his reason to stop himself actually saying it?

 

At the least that terms strikes me as incredibly patronising and demeaning when used by an opponent especially.

[Frazzle]

All Uruguyans are racist anyway, chances are Suarez was intending to be racist.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

All Uruguyans are racist anyway, chances are Suarez was intending to be racist.

 

 

[johnnypd]

can't believe wacko is defending this.  always thought he was one of the sensible scousers  if even he's spouting this shit it shows how deluded they've become as a group. "when a man acts in a crowd he loses one brain and gains another."

[jdckelly]

Gus Poyet piped up on the situation and his comments don't speak well for him

 

"I believe Luis Suárez, it's simple. I played football for seven years in Spain and was called everything because I was from South America, and I never went out crying like a baby, like Patrice Evra, saying that someone had said something to me."

 

"I'm surprised, in a really sad way, that he has been charged. It's really sad. I think it's worse to charge someone because you trust one person when you have no proof."

 

"I'm really sad about this charge as it's going to become too easy. I can make a complaint about any opposition manager and if I take it as far as I can he's going to get charged. Why are we going to take one person's word over another? It's too risky."

[Tooj]

As if I couldn't already hate Poyet enough.

[wacko]

Wacko- I'm not gonna start a quote tree,but did you miss the bit where I said 'making an issue' of someone's skin colour? Is Evra a black man? Yes. Is there any context in which this should be brought up on a football pitch? No.

 

It's you that's absolutely wrong.

 

There is no reason for Suarez to be mentioning it,unless you're gonna tell me they were having a debate on race? I understand what you're getting at and I do happen to think that 'being offended' is a state that people all to quickly fall into these days,but there's no excuse for bringing it up in this case,my friend of skin colour unknown.

 

And there's no actual reason he should be raising the matter of Evra's size or gender, either, is there?

 

But all you can see is that, horror of horrors, he mentioned the man's skin colour. Except it's not even clear that he did. He used a word that means "mate" or "darling" to a Uruguayan, but literally means "little black one".

 

Demeaning and patronising, or perhaps insulting and infuriating is almost certainly what Suarez was aiming for. It generally is the goal of sledging and seems well in character (I'm in no way trying to deny that he's a cunt: I'd despise him if he played for someone else). But that's not the same as racist.

 

Perhaps it was a calculated application of a word intended to cause offense in the knowledge that he had a pretty solid defence for using it should he get caught. But we have no way of knowing what his intention was, so we can't know whether he said "mate" or "little black man".

 

Suarez *must* be given the benefit of the doubt. He claims he said "mate"; Evra claims he heard "little black man". And they're both correct.

 

Wacko- I'm not gonna start a quote tree,but did you miss the bit where I said 'making an issue' of someone's skin colour? Is Evra a black man? Yes. Is there any context in which this should be brought up on a football pitch? No.

 

It's you that's absolutely wrong.

 

There is no reason for Suarez to be mentioning it,unless you're gonna tell me they were having a debate on race? I understand what you're getting at and I do happen to think that 'being offended' is a state that people all to quickly fall into these days,but there's no excuse for bringing it up in this case,my friend of skin colour unknown.

 

Think this is the most impotant point TBH.

 

Even if Suarez didn't "mean to be racist", why is he even thinking to notice and comment on Evra's colour as the first thing to have a go at him about? And when he instinctively thought of it, why didn't he use his reason to stop himself actually saying it?

 

At the least that terms strikes me as incredibly patronising and demeaning when used by an opponent especially.

 

Except it's not even a point. It is not at all clear (and never will be) that he did mention Evra's colour. Everyone is claiming it must be racist word he used derives from "negro", meaning "black" (possibly with a good measure of Suarez-is-a-cunt thrown in). But that means nothing.

 

Is "black market" racist? Or "blackmail"? What about "brownout"? Film noir? Is calling someone cowardly "yellow" a racial slur? Do they have anything at all to do with skin colour?

 

No? But any Spanish word related to "negro" must be racist?

 

Has nobody asked themselves why a word that means "darling" would also be a racial slur?

[Parky]

Well, a Spanish word possibly used by a Uruguayan against a Frenchman in England, I haven't got a clue.

 

As far as I'm concerned, if you say racist things then you are being racist. Whether that makes you A RACIST I don't know or care, as that's a pointless judgement anyway.

 

IMO we all have tribal and instinctive reactions against people who are different from us, that's normal. The mark of civilisation is that we can use our reasoning minds to correct ourselves before we actually act on these in-built and perfectly natural prejudices.

 

I'd argue wether they are natural or learnt. Agree with the rest of your post.