Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 "Has looked nothing like a team player"... really? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Whilst i don't think you can argue with the points you've made regarding that particular incident, why are you laying into HBA so early on? Are you not satisfied with it just being down to rustiness and a lack of pre-season, or do you genuinely think he's going to be an ineffectual player for us? I think he's a very talented player that can have a big role for us, you may be surprised to hear that with the strawman arguments his fans have attempted to build up but if you read back through at no time have I ever said he isn't any good. The doubts I have are as follows... He will improve the current team: People seem to think all we have to do is select him over Best and we will become an even better side which I don't see as being the case. One of the main reasons we are where we are in the league is down to the amount of work our players put in when we don't have the ball, we're not playing teams off the park by any stretch of the imagination but we are putting a ridiculous amount of effort in closing down and tracking back when we don't have the ball, a good example of this is when I posted on Saturday about Ba not having the best of games but he still put the work in and that is the same for all of our midfield and attack recently, we've seen with Cabaye that he hasn't been up to his high standards lately that he set at the beginning of the season but he's still putting plenty of work in covering the pitch and the same goes for Ba, Best, Tiote and Jonas. Ben Arfa is different in that he's not going to graft but he's technically more gifted than anyone else in our attack, that's great when he's up to speed and if he settles into the team but at the moment he isn't which makes me think he could end up being a passenger which we can't afford to have, this opinion is backed up by people who watched the Blackburn game that he started and was anonymous for large parts of it apparently. People bring up how long Coloccini and Enrique took to settle in before finding their best form but the difference now is that we have a very good alternative in Best and Ba that have formed a good partnership, back then if we didn't play Colo we had Taylor who was equally poor and N'Zogbia to cover Enrique, I would hate to throw away our current position by attempting to get a player that isn't up to speed and might not be any time soon. Partnership with Ba: The second problem I have is the potential partnership with Ba, I think people presume that Ba is a target man type but I don't see this as being the case and at West Ham and before coming to England he's played in more a withdrawn role, a role he continues to play here with great success (15 goals in 22 Premiership games) so how do him and Ben Arfa play in a withdrawn position unless we're going with 3 up top? People have suggested that Ba could play more of a target man role but when he's been as successful as all but a few in front of goal playing this role why should he change to accommodate someone? So not only do I think he lacks the work ethic for this current team but I think him playing in a number 10 role with Ba could leave the whole attack imbalanced, all this while he' clearly not up to speed anyway. Team player?: In the 10 appearances he's made since he's been here for me he's looked anything but a team player which I think is important for anyone playing in the number 10 role, we've heard people compliment him on his dribbling skills and such but how many occasions can you say he was an important factor in making something happen for someone else since he's been here? That's not having a go at the lad but it's a pretty obvious thing to notice and something that he can get away with more out wide than when he's relied on to be the heartbeat of the team. People have said that it's because of a lack of options in front of him but if he is going to play that role then it's only going to be Ba there the majority of the time anyway, he's going to find himself in plenty of similar situations like he did against Everton but is he going to continue to play for himself instead of others like a VDV would? I know people think I'm being harsh on the lad as he's been out injured so long but I don't think I am, if people were not demanding him being in the starting line up up top now then I'd happily give him his cameo's to get up to speed like I am with Gosling, however if he is going to have a starting place for us then I expect better than what we've seen so far and I don't care how long he's been out either, like I said if he's not performing he's a luxury that I don't think we can carry and maintain our current form at the same time. Long term I think he's going to struggle to get in up top, not because of Best as I don't think Pardew rates him that highly but I see whichever striker he buys if it's Maiga or whoever I see it with a view of linking up with Ba, our biggest goal threat by some distance, so what I'd like to see is HBA played out on the right which will give him his chance to get his fitness back and then for us to buy a solid right back (OMG Santon is a right back etc) that is happy to sit and cover leaving HBA to have a more free role out wide, someone like Onuoha would be great for the role. So to summarise I don't think Ben Arfa is shite, I also don't think him having one good game, scoring a great goal like he did against Everton or getting an assist would have proven me wrong which some are building their straw men to mean, it's about looking at the bigger picture and seeing if the form of the team improves or drops off over a longer period than that. Here like, fuck this. What an absolutely disgusting thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 This discussion is the worst thing that has ever happened. Absolute horseshit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 This discussion is the worst thing that has ever happened. Absolute horseshit. Possibly the worst debate in N-O's history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 There have probably been worse, like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredbob Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Not having anything to moan about has brought out some real mongathon debates recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 You wait a second, spot his run which you can see Distin isn't watching and left it over into the space. It's really not a hard pass at all and if Ba did get it first which is likely and Distin did catch up with him he wouldn't be able to touch him without fear of a sending off. It was an excellent chance missed. A second later and he didn't have the angle for the pass because the gap between the two defenders has gone but carry on nitpicking. It's not 5 a-side indoor football that's not allowed to go over head height, Mick. There was a huge space to chip it in to, in fact it didn't have to be that accurate as the space for him to run in to was so big. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 This is such bollox but i might add, in reference to the second by second analysis, i think the Everton defenders have a fair position and i wouldn't fancy Ba to have the legs on Distin frankly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I still can't believe people are still banging on about the pass to Ba If he had gave the ball away and Everton went to score I'd be unhappy but we won the game ffs, no idea why people are still moaning about it. Anyway...I can see him starting against City. Think Pardew will probably use Ba as the lone striker with HBA floating around behind him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Cabaye doesn't feel settled in the league yet (by his own admission) yet his quickly-found relative success so far seems to have skewed expectation levels for Ben Arfa upon his return after a year out. Right now, there can only really be positives - every flash of brilliance (no matter how fleeting!) can only be progress. Everything else really can't be taken seriously at this stage. If any perceived weaknesses or foibles are still overly evident months down the line of playing - then the doubts can have credibility, but right now they're without foundation or substance IMO. That being said, for those who are intimately familiar with the player he was pre-injury (and I'm genuinely not sure how many there are!), there's no harm in discussing his future role in the team (ie. discussing pre-existing features of his game which would better suit him to certain positions over others). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sifu Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 There have probably been worse, like. There have been a few shit ones involving NE5 ages ago but certainly this debate has been one of the worst from recent times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Still cannot believe poor Yorkie's 2 line comment was responded to by THAT. I would be fucking devastated if I was Yorkie like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 It should, but unfortunately nobody can be bothered to read it and the debate is baseless anyway. Perhaps we should have 160 word max posts as not to intimidate people. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexf Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Baggio and christmas tree. You guys seem to be basing your whole arguments on the fact that some people wanted HBA in the starting line up immediately which to be fair some did say a lot on here. But can you blame them? Excitement was inevitably going to build when a player, who many had seen play lots in france, had been out for a whole year. Now bar one or two i've noticed an evident drop in the number of people thinking he should be in the starting eleven when everyone is fit now that people have had chance to see he isn't quite ready and should continue his development in cameo roles. So there is no need to feel like you guys have to try and go the complete opposite of other posters on here just for the sake of argument because i think a huge majority except he shouldn't automatically replace best or any one else in the starting eleven atm. There really is no need for any debate because it's going to mean everytime he fucks something up your guys will be on here giving it the big and if he scores or plays really well everyone else will be doing the same back to you and it's going to get very tiresome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foluwashola Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What is it with Ben Arfa that causes mass obsession? Screenshot analysis and creepy French fanboys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What is it with Ben Arfa that causes mass obsession? Screenshot analysis and creepy French fanboys. At least when Kluivert was here we only had the one fanboy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What is it with Ben Arfa that causes mass obsession? Screenshot analysis and creepy French fanboys. At least when Kluivert was here we only had the one fanboy. The problem is that its not the fanboys (french posters) who ruin this tread. Its seasoned veterans Ben Arfa makes people lose their minds!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 What is it with Ben Arfa that causes mass obsession? Screenshot analysis and creepy French fanboys. At least when Kluivert was here we only had the one fanboy. The problem is that its not the fanboys (french posters) who ruin this tread. Its seasoned veterans Ben Arfa makes people lose their minds!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penn Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I agree with Baggio. Massive error for Ashley and Lambias to sign this chump permanently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 I agree with Baggio. Massive error for Ashley and Lambias to sign this chump permanently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christmas Tree Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Baggio and christmas tree. You guys seem to be basing your whole arguments on the fact that some people wanted HBA in the starting line up immediately which to be fair some did say a lot on here. But can you blame them? Excitement was inevitably going to build when a player, who many had seen play lots in france, had been out for a whole year. Now bar one or two i've noticed an evident drop in the number of people thinking he should be in the starting eleven when everyone is fit now that people have had chance to see he isn't quite ready and should continue his development in cameo roles. So there is no need to feel like you guys have to try and go the complete opposite of other posters on here just for the sake of argument because i think a huge majority except he shouldn't automatically replace best or any one else in the starting eleven atm. There really is no need for any debate because it's going to mean everytime he fucks something up your guys will be on here giving it the big and if he scores or plays really well everyone else will be doing the same back to you and it's going to get very tiresome. Honestly.....and you wont believe me......but if you took all the precious Ben Arfa comments and the bile directed at posters out of the last 20 pages, you would probably have 5 pages of decent discussion about his appearances so far and the possible ways in which he will or wont fit in to the team. Thats about the bottom line in fairness. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 There have probably been worse, like. There certainly has. You wouldn't guess who most of the antagonists were though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliassenfredrik Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 http://i.imgur.com/3nI07.png Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Whilst i don't think you can argue with the points you've made regarding that particular incident, why are you laying into HBA so early on? Are you not satisfied with it just being down to rustiness and a lack of pre-season, or do you genuinely think he's going to be an ineffectual player for us? I think he's a very talented player that can have a big role for us, you may be surprised to hear that with the strawman arguments his fans have attempted to build up but if you read back through at no time have I ever said he isn't any good. The doubts I have are as follows... He will improve the current team: People seem to think all we have to do is select him over Best and we will become an even better side which I don't see as being the case. One of the main reasons we are where we are in the league is down to the amount of work our players put in when we don't have the ball, we're not playing teams off the park by any stretch of the imagination but we are putting a ridiculous amount of effort in closing down and tracking back when we don't have the ball, a good example of this is when I posted on Saturday about Ba not having the best of games but he still put the work in and that is the same for all of our midfield and attack recently, we've seen with Cabaye that he hasn't been up to his high standards lately that he set at the beginning of the season but he's still putting plenty of work in covering the pitch and the same goes for Ba, Best, Tiote and Jonas. Ben Arfa is different in that he's not going to graft but he's technically more gifted than anyone else in our attack, that's great when he's up to speed and if he settles into the team but at the moment he isn't which makes me think he could end up being a passenger which we can't afford to have, this opinion is backed up by people who watched the Blackburn game that he started and was anonymous for large parts of it apparently. People bring up how long Coloccini and Enrique took to settle in before finding their best form but the difference now is that we have a very good alternative in Best and Ba that have formed a good partnership, back then if we didn't play Colo we had Taylor who was equally poor and N'Zogbia to cover Enrique, I would hate to throw away our current position by attempting to get a player that isn't up to speed and might not be any time soon. Partnership with Ba: The second problem I have is the potential partnership with Ba, I think people presume that Ba is a target man type but I don't see this as being the case and at West Ham and before coming to England he's played in more a withdrawn role, a role he continues to play here with great success (15 goals in 22 Premiership games) so how do him and Ben Arfa play in a withdrawn position unless we're going with 3 up top? People have suggested that Ba could play more of a target man role but when he's been as successful as all but a few in front of goal playing this role why should he change to accommodate someone? So not only do I think he lacks the work ethic for this current team but I think him playing in a number 10 role with Ba could leave the whole attack imbalanced, all this while he' clearly not up to speed anyway. Team player?: In the 10 appearances he's made since he's been here for me he's looked anything but a team player which I think is important for anyone playing in the number 10 role, we've heard people compliment him on his dribbling skills and such but how many occasions can you say he was an important factor in making something happen for someone else since he's been here? That's not having a go at the lad but it's a pretty obvious thing to notice and something that he can get away with more out wide than when he's relied on to be the heartbeat of the team. People have said that it's because of a lack of options in front of him but if he is going to play that role then it's only going to be Ba there the majority of the time anyway, he's going to find himself in plenty of similar situations like he did against Everton but is he going to continue to play for himself instead of others like a VDV would? I know people think I'm being harsh on the lad as he's been out injured so long but I don't think I am, if people were not demanding him being in the starting line up up top now then I'd happily give him his cameo's to get up to speed like I am with Gosling, however if he is going to have a starting place for us then I expect better than what we've seen so far and I don't care how long he's been out either, like I said if he's not performing he's a luxury that I don't think we can carry and maintain our current form at the same time. Long term I think he's going to struggle to get in up top, not because of Best as I don't think Pardew rates him that highly but I see whichever striker he buys if it's Maiga or whoever I see it with a view of linking up with Ba, our biggest goal threat by some distance, so what I'd like to see is HBA played out on the right which will give him his chance to get his fitness back and then for us to buy a solid right back (OMG Santon is a right back etc) that is happy to sit and cover leaving HBA to have a more free role out wide, someone like Onuoha would be great for the role. So to summarise I don't think Ben Arfa is s****, I also don't think him having one good game, scoring a great goal like he did against Everton or getting an assist would have proven me wrong which some are building their straw men to mean, it's about looking at the bigger picture and seeing if the form of the team improves or drops off over a longer period than that. Concur with all of that. Excellent work. 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Canuck Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Right now, there can only really be positives - every flash of brilliance (no matter how fleeting!) can only be progress. Everything else really can't be taken seriously at this stage. If any perceived weaknesses or foibles are still overly evident months down the line of playing - then the doubts can have credibility, but right now they're without foundation or substance IMO. You can't have it both ways. If you credit the good, you have to debit the bad. Your devalue your support of any issue by saying "only look at the points (no matter how fleeting) that support my argument". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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