Are Mike and Del Boy Forgiven Now?

[Guest malandro]

When and how would that money be given to us? I'm assuming there would be some type of lump sum followed by several smaller payments over the course of the season but I've got absolutely no idea. 

Me neither, but be it in a lump sum or in instalments itll be in the clubs accounts by the end of the relevant accounting period wont it?

 

It would interesting for those who are insisting we will be operating at loss season to have a stab at telling us how much that loss will be and how they arrived at this figure.

 

Well I won't insist on anything because there are far too many unknowns (not least of which is what our match day revenue will be this season) but as I said in an earlier post the last time we were in the Premiership our costs were £124 million. So you might assume we have cut say £20 million out of the costs since then, that would leave costs of £104 million for the year. After that it really depends on what you think our income will be.....Last time we were in the Premiership it was only £86 million but there are some improved deals in place in media revenues so, based on this very sketchy model, the question would be whether our income will be more or less than £104 million.....

My view about breaking even this season was based on two figures provided by the club. Namely a projected loss of £35m last season and Llambias’s claim relegation reduced our revenue by £50m. It could be that the club are lying, but if they are lying about this what’s to stop them lying about everything else.

 

As I’ve said the club have issued numerous ambiguous and contradictory statements about the club’s financial position, usually accompanied with a claim about how much money Ashley has lent the club this week. If they want to be forgiven for the past they need to be up front about the future.

 

[High Five o]

Ok, it say 7-8m in CCC, and 30m for bottom teams in PL, lets say 35m for Nufc.

 

+35m TV revenue -12m Paracute -8m CCC TV revenue = 15m increase

OK so with a projected loss of £35m last season. An extra £15m for returning to the PL brings that down to £20m, but £4m on new players this summer and an extra four players on the payroll need to be added. At an average of £25kpw that’s an extra £5m a season. Giving an operating loss of just short of £30m this time around, and the year after that unless we get into Europe. Hard to see how we’ll ever break even. Say we reduce the losses by £7.5m million a year to break even in four years time, the club’s debt will have increased by £75m before we stop making losses.

 

Yes I know it’s not a water tight calculation but it shows that there are a lot of unanswered questions about what’s happening at the club and that turning a blind eye because we got HBA on loan and beat Villa 6-0 is a dubious position to take.

 

 

Yes, and i agree with you on that.

But i stand very neutral on this, until we get the files, and can actually see whats going on.

Then we can draw conclusions, and see what drains the club for money, or if Ashley bluffing

and we make a profit.

 

The are so many factors in this we are not calculating with, so its nearly impossible to see the big picture.

 

And tbf, i don't think anyone turn their blind eye to it, but we have to appreciate the few positive thinks that happen at this club at the moment.

And speaking for myself, i am very happy with the start of the season, and fairly happy with the transfer window.

 

As a whole, i am worried about our owner, and the long therm plan.

But i hope he proves me wrong over time.

 

But for now, i wait on the files to come out, and concentrate on the team performance.

 

And as some here say, they want the club to go out with info on the "stat of the club".

I dont see the point, it will only leave more questions then answers, and i think 50% won`t believe

the shit that comes out of the club at the moment, and i don't blame them for that tbf.

[UV]

http://www.sportingintelligence.com/2010/05/16/the-premier-league-where-the-money-went-in-2009-10/

so last season (when we were in the CCC) the bottom PL team was guaranteed 24m basic, and as of this season they're guaranteed about 40m?

 

in a nutshell

 

 

 

 

So the extra revenue will be

 

Approx £40m revenue

less: £12m parachute payment

less: whatever media money we received this year.

 

Not really £35m-£40m extra at all, unless we do spectacularly well.

 

The £40m minimum assumes finishing bottom and having 10 or less games on TV. We are on the TV as much as any other team this year, and will receive amongst the highest facility fees. In 09-10 the difference between a high and a low facility fee payment was around £6m, if this has increased by a third, then that would be around £8m on top of the minimum £40m even if we finish bottom.

 

I can't find what the TV revenue for last year was, but I'm sure it has been published before and I was surprised at how small it was. I think it was less than £3m?

 

£48m - £12m -£3m  = £33m difference for finishing bottom. Every place we finish above that is an extra £1m+

[UV]

When and how would that money be given to us? I'm assuming there would be some type of lump sum followed by several smaller payments over the course of the season but I've got absolutely no idea. 

Me neither, but be it in a lump sum or in instalments it’ll be in the club’s accounts by the end of the relevant accounting period won’t it?

 

It would interesting for those who are insisting we will be operating at loss season to have a stab at telling us how much that loss will be and how they arrived at this figure.

 

Well I won't insist on anything because there are far too many unknowns (not least of which is what our match day revenue will be this season) but as I said in an earlier post the last time we were in the Premiership our costs were £124 million. So you might assume we have cut say £20 million out of the costs since then, that would leave costs of £104 million for the year. After that it really depends on what you think our income will be.....Last time we were in the Premiership it was only £86 million but there are some improved deals in place in media revenues so, based on this very sketchy model, the question would be whether our income will be more or less than £104 million.....

 

They're unknowns of course, but they are not things which are completely inestimable, and there really aren't too many of them are there?

 

Income = TV + matchday + commercial + transfer fees

Costs = wages + running costs + transfer fees + interest + tax

 

Have I missed anything out? (we're talking cash flow here so player amortisation, etc is not relevant right?)

 

The costs you mention from 08-09 will include around £30m from upfront player fees will they not? Any fees out this time will be covered and then some by the instalments coming in from the players we sold that year and last. Plus wages will be down by say £20m. Costs should be down by £40m at least.

 

I would be shocked if the club did not make a substantial cash flow profit this year (barring major purchases in January). If not, then you have to be majorly worried about what has happened to the revenue streams into the club do you not? Or are people happy to just accept year on year declines in revenue, putting it down to the economy while congratulating Mike for how well he's running the club?

[mrmojorisin75]

I would be shocked if the club did not make a substantial cash flow profit this year (barring major purchases in January). If not, then you have to be majorly worried about what has happened to the revenue streams into the club do you not? Or are people happy to just accept year on year declines in revenue, putting it down to the economy while congratulating Mike for how well he's running the club?

 

pretty much

[quayside]

When and how would that money be given to us? I'm assuming there would be some type of lump sum followed by several smaller payments over the course of the season but I've got absolutely no idea. 

Me neither, but be it in a lump sum or in instalments it’ll be in the club’s accounts by the end of the relevant accounting period won’t it?

 

It would interesting for those who are insisting we will be operating at loss season to have a stab at telling us how much that loss will be and how they arrived at this figure.

 

Well I won't insist on anything because there are far too many unknowns (not least of which is what our match day revenue will be this season) but as I said in an earlier post the last time we were in the Premiership our costs were £124 million. So you might assume we have cut say £20 million out of the costs since then, that would leave costs of £104 million for the year. After that it really depends on what you think our income will be.....Last time we were in the Premiership it was only £86 million but there are some improved deals in place in media revenues so, based on this very sketchy model, the question would be whether our income will be more or less than £104 million.....

 

They're unknowns of course, but they are not things which are completely inestimable, and there really aren't too many of them are there?

 

Income = TV + matchday + commercial + transfer fees

Costs = wages + running costs + transfer fees + interest + tax

 

Have I missed anything out? (we're talking cash flow here so player amortisation, etc is not relevant right?)

 

The costs you mention from 08-09 will include around £30m from upfront player fees will they not? Any fees out this time will be covered and then some by the instalments coming in from the players we sold that year and last. Plus wages will be down by say £20m. Costs should be down by £40m at least.

 

I would be shocked if the club did not make a substantial cash flow profit this year (barring major purchases in January). If not, then you have to be majorly worried about what has happened to the revenue streams into the club do you not? Or are people happy to just accept year on year declines in revenue, putting it down to the economy while congratulating Mike for how well he's running the club?

 

I wasn't talking about cash flow I was talking about the accounting result and had assumed, rightly or wrongly, that Llambias had been talking about the same thing.  If you are right with your forecast about the cash flow for this season then it sounds like we might have some surplus cash. The last time this happened the shareholders paid themselves a dividend (although of course it wasn't their money that was funding the club). Perhaps if it happens this time we might to be able to use the surplus to reduce the debt for the first time in about 10 years. Happy days indeed.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Some quality from Sports Direct as usual:

 

[Elliottman]

Some quality from Sports Direct as usual:

 

 

[thorin]

Due to the new regulations it seems like unless we get in another owner, who's willing to kill the debt and also add additional capital to the cash side of things we will rot in the PL bottoms side for the next decade

[Mick]

Due to the new regulations it seems like unless we get in another owner, who's willing to kill the debt and also add additional capital to the cash side of things we will rot in the PL bottoms side for the next decade

 

Which new regulations?

[Dave]

I fucking hate the title of this thread.

[Guest jonlane86]

They're doing a better job than Shepherd ever did, being realistic and spending the money the club can afford to spend rather than plunging it into stupid amounts of debt.  Yes we were relegated whilst MA and DL were in charge but the damage had already been done before they had arrived.

 

There is still a long long way to go, lets get stabilised as a PL club and aim to play entertaining football whilst working within our means as a business. That's the best way forward imo

[Tsunami]

They're doing a better job than Shepherd ever did

 

No they're not.

[Dave]

What a laughable post.

[MyPalAl]

I fucking hate the title of this thread.

 

[buzza]

Not forgiven, but going in the right direction and making correct decisions for a change.

They need to make an effort on their PR still as the treatment of press, away fans and general countenance is still lackin...

[NG32]

They're doing a better job than Shepherd ever did, being realistic and spending the money the club can afford to spend rather than plunging it into stupid amounts of debt.  Yes we were relegated whilst MA and DL were in charge but the damage had already been done before they had arrived.

 

There is still a long long way to go, lets get stabilised as a PL club and aim to play entertaining football whilst working within our means as a business. That's the best way forward imo

 

 

[NG32]

I'll start to change my opinion of these two if we continue to progress over the next few years.  A big fcking sorry wouldn't go a miss either as it was their fault we were relegated.

 

 

[Stu]

I'll start to change my opinion of these two if we continue to progress over the next few years.   A big fcking sorry wouldn't go a miss either as it was their fault we were relegated.

 

 

 

Any apology would look shit now, they've shown themselves to be the type to drive a hard-bargain if it gets the right result in the end. A cup win or consecutive European qualification in the coming years and it'll be those in the BOYCOUTT BRIGADE who'll be eating humble pie.

 

 

[Mr. Snrub]

They're doing a better job than Shepherd ever did, being realistic and spending the money the club can afford to spend rather than plunging it into stupid amounts of debt.  Yes we were relegated whilst MA and DL were in charge but the damage had already been done before they had arrived.

 

There is still a long long way to go, lets get stabilised as a PL club and aim to play entertaining football whilst working within our means as a business. That's the best way forward imo

 

One of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on here.

 

Relegation > Champions League. 

[The College Dropout]

To be honest. If Shephard was still in charge we would have gotten relegated anyway. We where not a sustainable club.

[Stu]

where we not?

[UV]

I'll start to change my opinion of these two if we continue to progress over the next few years.   A big fcking sorry wouldn't go a miss either as it was their fault we were relegated.

 

 

 

Any apology would look shit now, they've shown themselves to be the type to drive a hard-bargain if it gets the right result in the end. A cup win or consecutive European qualification in the coming years and it'll be those in the BOYCOUTT BRIGADE who'll be eating humble pie.

 

 

 

What the HAPPY CLAPPY ASHLEYITE BRIGADE don't seem to understand is that Ashley will drive a hard bargain whether it occasionally gets the right result or whether it more often than not fails to do so. Which in the long run will most likely result in a squad full of mediocre and/or disgruntled players, leading to a disenchanted and dwindling supporter base.

 

Anyone who thinks a single cup win would mean the owner/chairman was doing a good job is an idiot btw. Regular cup quarter/semi/final appearances and defeats would be a more significant milestone a than single one-off win. If we achieve consecutive European qualification spots under Ashley I will gladly eat anything you want. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I'll die of starvation before that happens though.

 

 

I may be naive, but I couldn't really give a flying fuck about the clubs accounts at the moment, or money that we/Ashley has/has not.

 

I just want to enjoy going to the match, and having a team worthy of our support, and let Ashley run HIS club the way he has (very successfully) run his other businesses over the years.

 

I run my own business, but he is FAR more successful at running his than I am mine (cos I am no billionaire), so for that reason, and because I am very sure that he wants success for NUFC as well as me, I am prepared to let him do what he is good at (business acumen-wise), and I will do what I am good at, and that is support the team.

 

This made me laugh/cry (not the bit about just wanting to enjoy the football, I can fully understand that).

Some of the similarities between Ashley's business tactics with Sports Direct and us are becoming more and more evident, eg

- buying brands with a good name, then sticking that brand on cheap products

- paying staff minimum wages who therefore don't care about the job they do and are always looking to get away

- running with a skeleton staff - the minimum needed during an average day, but understaffed when a few are sick/on holiday

- putting mates in the top jobs rather than getting in someone more qualified

- the worst customer service around

- making false claims to customers

- pissing off competitors with dubious tactics so they hold a grudge against you

 

He may have started out differently on some things like player wages (maybe he was originally only in it for a quick resale, or maybe relegation changed his thinking), but it seems he's reverting to what he knows has worked for him in the past. Ashley is very successful in making money from selling a poor quality product, but the money he makes doesn't go back into making that product better. Unfortunately, at the minute that's the future I see for us too (at best), and every year it carries on will make it harder and harder to get back to where we were.

[BottledDog]

I'll start to change my opinion of these two if we continue to progress over the next few years.   A big fcking sorry wouldn't go a miss either as it was their fault we were relegated.

 

 

 

Any apology would look shit now, they've shown themselves to be the type to drive a hard-bargain if it gets the right result in the end. A cup win or consecutive European qualification in the coming years and it'll be those in the BOYCOUTT BRIGADE who'll be eating humble pie.

 

 

 

What the HAPPY CLAPPY ASHLEYITE BRIGADE don't seem to understand is that Ashley will drive a hard bargain whether it occasionally gets the right result or whether it more often than not fails to do so. Which in the long run will most likely result in a squad full of mediocre and/or disgruntled players, leading to a disenchanted and dwindling supporter base.

 

Anyone who thinks a single cup win would mean the owner/chairman was doing a good job is an idiot btw. Regular cup quarter/semi/final appearances and defeats would be a more significant milestone a than single one-off win. If we achieve consecutive European qualification spots under Ashley I will gladly eat anything you want. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure I'll die of starvation before that happens though.

 

 

I may be naive, but I couldn't really give a flying fuck about the clubs accounts at the moment, or money that we/Ashley has/has not.

 

I just want to enjoy going to the match, and having a team worthy of our support, and let Ashley run HIS club the way he has (very successfully) run his other businesses over the years.

 

I run my own business, but he is FAR more successful at running his than I am mine (cos I am no billionaire), so for that reason, and because I am very sure that he wants success for NUFC as well as me, I am prepared to let him do what he is good at (business acumen-wise), and I will do what I am good at, and that is support the team.

 

This made me laugh/cry (not the bit about just wanting to enjoy the football, I can fully understand that).

Some of the similarities between Ashley's business tactics with Sports Direct and us are becoming more and more evident, eg

- buying brands with a good name, then sticking that brand on cheap products

- paying staff minimum wages who therefore don't care about the job they do and are always looking to get away

- running with a skeleton staff - the minimum needed during an average day, but understaffed when a few are sick/on holiday

- putting mates in the top jobs rather than getting in someone more qualified

- the worst customer service around

- making false claims to customers

- pissing off competitors with dubious tactics so they hold a grudge against you

 

He may have started out differently on some things like player wages (maybe he was originally only in it for a quick resale, or maybe relegation changed his thinking), but it seems he's reverting to what he knows has worked for him in the past. Ashley is very successful in making money from selling a poor quality product, but the money he makes doesn't go back into making that product better. Unfortunately, at the minute that's the future I see for us too (at best), and every year it carries on will make it harder and harder to get back to where we were.

 

 

What a load of old bollocks. The staff and players for a start seem more committed to the cause than I've seen for a very very long time, we have kept hold of our best players when we could so easily cash in on the likes of Carroll and Jose, and if Ben Arfa is cheap tat then call me a happy Kappa clapper any day of the week.

[Guest malandro]

Only if you’re prone to burying your head in the sand.