Kevin Nolan

[Andy]

I still think his game is very limited, regardless of how many goals he's scored. I think it's quite likely that he doesn't go through the same green patch next season and more people will come to realise what a limited footballer he is. I'll also say that our 'style' isn't affected when he's not playing, but it is when Tiote is not because Tiote is the spine of our team. Nolan's taken a lot of the chances that's come his way this season and for that he deserves a lot of credit, but I don't think it's likely that he's third joint Prem scorer next season at this stage of the season.

 

Did you see our midfield performances earlier in the season when Nolan was out injured? We looked far more limited with Barton or Guthrie in the centre alongside Tiote - and yet Barton is far more mobile than Nolan and theoritically a better footballer... As I've said, it's very easy to overlook the tactical know-how that Nolan brings to the team but there's good evidence to suggest that it's far more valuable than a lot of people realise.

[Hughesy]

Nolan has 'won me over' as well, in that although I agree with Kaka that his mobility is embarrassing, I accept that he's one part of our well-functioning midfield and there's no real reason to drop him.

 

Still think that picture changes when Tiote isn't playing, but obviously it's not realistic to expect Nolan to be dropped every time Tiote is out.

 

Agreed, it's not world-class marthon runner standard, but it's really nowhere near as bad as so many of you imply. He's conditioned to perform for 90minutes, not 3hours.

 

He should be looking visibly tired by 80minutes+ if he's been giving 110% to the cause.

 

Nail on head here:

 

The Nolan-Barton "this group of lads" ethos is far more important to the team than any individual player. (Even )

 

We need him for the foreseeable. In the meantime, 15-odd goals a season from midfield isn't bad.

 

Your point would be all well and good - except he looks knackered and immobile after 8 minutes, never mind 80 minutes.

 

Your point would be all well and good if there were any actual evidence of our midfield being overrun as a result of his apparent lack of mobility.

 

It was a bit of a joke to be honest.  I don't genuinely think he is tired after 8 mins.  He at least makes it to 20 mins.

 

Seriously though, I don't really know how anyone can reasonably defend his mobility or his fitness levels because they are, quite frankly, not very good.

[Stu]

I still think his game is very limited, regardless of how many goals he's scored. I think it's quite likely that he doesn't go through the same green patch next season and more people will come to realise what a limited footballer he is. I'll also say that our 'style' isn't affected when he's not playing, but it is when Tiote is not because Tiote is the spine of our team. Nolan's taken a lot of the chances that's come his way this season and for that he deserves a lot of credit, but I don't think it's likely that he's third joint Prem scorer next season at this stage of the season.

 

Did you see our midfield performances earlier in the season when Nolan was out injured? We looked far more limited with Barton or Guthrie in the centre alongside Tiote - and yet Barton is far more mobile than Nolan and theoritically a better footballer... As I've said, it's very easy to overlook the tactical know-how that Nolan brings to the team but there's good evidence to suggest that it's far more valuable than a lot of people realise.

 

Andy is spot on here, Apisith.

 

I agree that Barton is the better footballer, but for whatever intangible reason, we just didn't perform without Nolan in the side.

[Andy]

Nolan has 'won me over' as well, in that although I agree with Kaka that his mobility is embarrassing, I accept that he's one part of our well-functioning midfield and there's no real reason to drop him.

 

Still think that picture changes when Tiote isn't playing, but obviously it's not realistic to expect Nolan to be dropped every time Tiote is out.

 

Agreed, it's not world-class marthon runner standard, but it's really nowhere near as bad as so many of you imply. He's conditioned to perform for 90minutes, not 3hours.

 

He should be looking visibly tired by 80minutes+ if he's been giving 110% to the cause.

 

Nail on head here:

 

The Nolan-Barton "this group of lads" ethos is far more important to the team than any individual player. (Even )

 

We need him for the foreseeable. In the meantime, 15-odd goals a season from midfield isn't bad.

 

Your point would be all well and good - except he looks knackered and immobile after 8 minutes, never mind 80 minutes.

 

Your point would be all well and good if there were any actual evidence of our midfield being overrun as a result of his apparent lack of mobility.

 

It was a bit of a joke to be honest.  I don't genuinely think he is tired after 8 mins.  He at least makes it to 20 mins.

 

Seriously though, I don't really know how anyone can reasonably defend his mobility or his fitness levels because they are, quite frankly, not very good.

 

They are also massively exaggerated... However, this time, you are missing my point - I'm not defending his lack of mobility, I'm questioning its relevance when he makes up for it positionally.

[alexf]

i don't mind nolan much purely because he scores so many goals and is a great leader and motivator for the team.

 

But there was a classic nolan moment in the spurs game(i think?). Someone passed him the ball but it was slightly ahead of him but still realistic to get so he sprinted after it but because he is so slow he just wasn't getting there, so then he decides to slide in to make sure the other player doesn't get it and then misses completely with the slide aswell haha.

 

I do like nolan but things like that and when he's closing people down he either doesn't get anywhere near or he fouls them purely because he can barely run at times.

[Taylor Swift]

Nolan's missed three matches, two of which was very early in the season IIRC. I don't think that's a big enough sample size to determine whether we're better or worse off with him not starting. We saw what happened when Tiote was banned, however, and that's why I think it's a given that Tiote's one of the most important players in our team right now, if not the most based on the position he plays.

[Stu]

This isn't a thread about Tiote though, nor is it a thread comparing Tiote's influence vs Nolan's.

 

In fact, briefly skimming through most of the moderate opinions in the thread, most people have acknowledged the benefit of playing Tiote WITH Nolan.

 

How many matches has Tiote missed?

[TRon]

I still think his game is very limited, regardless of how many goals he's scored. I think it's quite likely that he doesn't go through the same green patch next season and more people will come to realise what a limited footballer he is. I'll also say that our 'style' isn't affected when he's not playing, but it is when Tiote is not because Tiote is the spine of our team. Nolan's taken a lot of the chances that's come his way this season and for that he deserves a lot of credit, but I don't think it's likely that he's third joint Prem scorer next season at this stage of the season.

 

Did you see our midfield performances earlier in the season when Nolan was out injured? We looked far more limited with Barton or Guthrie in the centre alongside Tiote - and yet Barton is far more mobile than Nolan and theoritically a better footballer... As I've said, it's very easy to overlook the tactical know-how that Nolan brings to the team but there's good evidence to suggest that it's far more valuable than a lot of people realise.

 

When Barton has played alongside Tiote we've lost Barton out wide which upsets the balance. I still think there's nothing wrong with a Barton/Tiote combination in the centre provided the wide players are doing their bit, i.e. not disappearing up their own arse as Routledge was prone to.

[Andy]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think Nolan is a better centre midfielder than Barton by some distance.

[Taylor Swift]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think Nolan is a better centre midfielder than Barton by some distance.

 

I don't really have a comment on that debate. The issue I have is how we progress from where we are right now, and the key areas, imo, are strikers, a right winger and then it's Nolan's position in the team. I think we're good enough in all other areas to be real challengers for Europe season-in season-out. Football is about controlling the game. If you have the ball, the other team will always find it hard to score, regardless of how good your defence is. Sure, you may have some shit defenders who are prone to mistakes (ahem, Arsenal), but if you control the ball for most of the match, you're going to end up winning more often than not (this Arsenal exemplifies). Which means, then, that you need excellent midfielders with some mobile strikers who can exploit the weaknesses in opposition teams to controll the ball and dominate the match.

 

Take a look at Barca and their players. Their three midfielders aren't particularly fast nor do they particularly excel at goal-scoring, but they control the ball so well that their defence can push up so high and choke the opposition strikers out of the game. Their defence has good players, but it's the shape of the team and their style of football that enables them to control the game and thus concede very few goals. It's the midfield and the strikers that allows this to happen.

 

I look at our team and I see players who contribute in this intangible way. I see Jonas - in his good days - who is one of the best outlets in our team, who allows our defence to push up, who pushes the other teams back which allows us to control the game. I saw Carroll who was able to hold the ball up and intimidate defences, which allowed our midfielders more time on the ball. I think Tiote is a magnificent player - probably the most important player in our team right now - and he's a player who's good on the ball and contributes so much to the shape of the team. Then I look at Nolan and all I see is goals. That would actually be fine if he was a striker, but he's not. He's occupying one of the most crucial positions on the pitch, and goals alone just aren't enough. They're more than enough now, for us, for a newly promoted team and for a team which would be more than happy at finishing 10th, but they will not be enough if we want to challenge regularly for Europe. He just doesn't contribute enough. That doesn't mean that he's not contributing enough now, because he does, but if we are to aspire to more, then I think it's less likely that we do so if he's a starter in the team.

[Taylor Swift]

Take a look at Liverpool when they were good two seasons ago. They had Mascherano and Alonso in CM, and Kuyt and some shitfuck on the left. Barton's probably as good a player as Kuyt, and Ben Arfa is as good as anything they have on the left, but Liverpool completely dominated matches. They had more possession, more chances, and inevitably, scored more goals, and it all stemmed from having midfielders that contributed to the style and shape of the team. Tiote is our Mascherano - equally good imo. The only difference between our teams is Nolan and Alonso. Now Alonso was never prolific but he was so instrumental to their team (like he is now to Madrid) that his weakness in terms of goalscoring was more than made up by the intangible value of being able to dictate the game and control the ball.

 

If we are to progress, I see us having to go the same route. That, of course, means that we need some good strikers. We won't be able to get a Torres, but none of us are expecting to challenge for the title. If we are able to get some decent, mobile strikers, I think Nolan will quickly become superfluous in the team, while our other midfielders won't.

[Guest je85]

Take a look at Liverpool when they were good two seasons ago. They had Mascherano and Alonso in CM, and Kuyt and some shitfuck on the left. Barton's probably as good a player as Kuyt, and Ben Arfa is as good as anything they have on the left, but Liverpool completely dominated matches. They had more possession, more chances, and inevitably, scored more goals, and it all stemmed from having midfielders that contributed to the style and shape of the team. Tiote is our Mascherano - equally good imo. The only difference between our teams is Nolan and Alonso. Now Alonso was never prolific but he was so instrumental to their team (like he is now to Madrid) that his weakness in terms of goalscoring was more than made up by the intangible value of being able to dictate the game and control the ball.

 

If we are to progress, I see us having to go the same route. That, of course, means that we need some good strikers. We won't be able to get a Torres, but none of us are expecting to challenge for the title. If we are able to get some decent, mobile strikers, I think Nolan will quickly become superfluous in the team, while our other midfielders won't.

 

I think this is the crux of the matter though, we don't have Gerrard and Torres to compliment the midfield you mentioned, it's the positions further up the field that are currently the positions needing strengthening, Nolan will certainly be able to do a job for us for a while yet.

[Stu]

Barton's probably as good a player as Kuyt

 

 

Funnily enough, Kuyt is probably the inverse of Nolan, he's everything our captain isn't.

 

The only difference between our teams is Nolan and Alonso. Now Alonso was never prolific but he was so instrumental to their team (like he is now to Madrid) that his weakness in terms of goalscoring was more than made up by the intangible value of being able to dictate the game and control the ball.

 

 

So, you're saying Nolan isn't as good as Alonso and if we're looking to finish 2nd in the league (arguably, challenge for the title) then we need to replace Nolan with an Alonoso-esque player.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Andy]

Barton's probably as good a player as Kuyt

 

 

Funnily enough, Kuyt is probably the inverse of Nolan, he's everything our captain isn't.

 

The only difference between our teams is Nolan and Alonso. Now Alonso was never prolific but he was so instrumental to their team (like he is now to Madrid) that his weakness in terms of goalscoring was more than made up by the intangible value of being able to dictate the game and control the ball.

 

 

So, you're saying Nolan isn't as good as Alonso and if we're looking to finish 2nd in the league (arguably, challenge for the title) then we need to replace Nolan with an Alonoso-esque player.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Why stop there? Let's replace him with a Xavi-esque player and push for that Champions League final place we so rightfully deserve.

[Stu]

[Mr Logic]

 

I don't really have a comment on that debate. The issue I have is how we progress from where we are right now, and the key areas, imo, are strikers, a right winger and then it's Nolan's position in the team. I think we're good enough in all other areas to be real challengers for Europe season-in season-out. Football is about controlling the game. If you have the ball, the other team will always find it hard to score, regardless of how good your defence is. Sure, you may have some shit defenders who are prone to mistakes (ahem, Arsenal), but if you control the ball for most of the match, you're going to end up winning more often than not (this Arsenal exemplifies). Which means, then, that you need excellent midfielders with some mobile strikers who can exploit the weaknesses in opposition teams to controll the ball and dominate the match.

 

Take a look at Barca and their players. Their three midfielders aren't particularly fast nor do they particularly excel at goal-scoring, but they control the ball so well that their defence can push up so high and choke the opposition strikers out of the game. Their defence has good players, but it's the shape of the team and their style of football that enables them to control the game and thus concede very few goals. It's the midfield and the strikers that allows this to happen.

 

I look at our team and I see players who contribute in this intangible way. I see Jonas - in his good days - who is one of the best outlets in our team, who allows our defence to push up, who pushes the other teams back which allows us to control the game. I saw Carroll who was able to hold the ball up and intimidate defences, which allowed our midfielders more time on the ball. I think Tiote is a magnificent player - probably the most important player in our team right now - and he's a player who's good on the ball and contributes so much to the shape of the team. Then I look at Nolan and all I see is goals. That would actually be fine if he was a striker, but he's not. He's occupying one of the most crucial positions on the pitch, and goals alone just aren't enough. They're more than enough now, for us, for a newly promoted team and for a team which would be more than happy at finishing 10th, but they will not be enough if we want to challenge regularly for Europe. He just doesn't contribute enough. That doesn't mean that he's not contributing enough now, because he does, but if we are to aspire to more, then I think it's less likely that we do so if he's a starter in the team.

 

I think that's a pretty spot on assessment. Nolan provides more than goals though, there's this intangible leader job he seems to be doing also. But to suggest we can't get better for the position, as some seem to imply, is surely wrong.

 

I'd love to have seen how, (mayhaps there's still a slight chance), an in-form Stephen Ireland and Ben Arfa would have operated together. Barfa a deep-lying forward and Ireland a traditional AM - Given his pace, Ranger might be the best option ahead of them and finally, Tiote in behind, though that goes without saying really.

[Yorkie]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think Nolan is a better centre midfielder than Barton by some distance.

 

Agreed, cos Nolan has a defined role at centre-mid. He's excellent in and around the box, and is good at defending from the front.

 

Barton's a wide-man. He's got no stand-out qualities to perform a particular role in the middle of the park.

[Dinho lad]

You Nolan fans are just a bunch of fanboys in love with his silly chicken dance and cheeky chappy routine. The guy is a very poor central midfielder. Instead of claiming I'm clueless, how about telling me about the contributions to general play you all seem to see him make on the field that I don't. He is invisible out there the vast majority of the time. No one can dispute this.

 

Does Nolan get up and down the pitch - no, does he win the ball back at least sometimes? - no, does he dictate play and spread the ball about a little bit? - no, he just lurks around the box to nick goals, but he's a freakin' midfielder! The guy is a fraud, and no serious club would have him for free. Despite this great tally of goals he hasn't been linked with anyone of note, while all our other midfielders have been, including the much maligned Jonas. Nolan is hopeless.

 

this is coming from the same person that rates Wayne Routledge.

[Toon Hoser]

I support Nolan, in fact I live vicariously through him.  We both have chubby thighs.  http://img105.imageshack.us/img105/1449/redfacemd5.gif

[joeyt]

Still find it astounding that he has scored 28 goals for us in about 19 months.

[Stu]

29 goals in 86 games during his NUFC career.

 

29 goals in his last 72 matches (took him 14 to score).

 

Scored 'just' 40 Premiership goals in 261 appearances for Bolton.

At his current rate for Newcastle, he'll beat that by his 131st Premiership NUFC game or have scored 80 goals in the same number of games.

[TRon]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. I think Nolan is a better centre midfielder than Barton by some distance.

 

I don't really have a comment on that debate. The issue I have is how we progress from where we are right now, and the key areas, imo, are strikers, a right winger and then it's Nolan's position in the team. I think we're good enough in all other areas to be real challengers for Europe season-in season-out. Football is about controlling the game. If you have the ball, the other team will always find it hard to score, regardless of how good your defence is. Sure, you may have some shit defenders who are prone to mistakes (ahem, Arsenal), but if you control the ball for most of the match, you're going to end up winning more often than not (this Arsenal exemplifies). Which means, then, that you need excellent midfielders with some mobile strikers who can exploit the weaknesses in opposition teams to controll the ball and dominate the match.

 

Take a look at Barca and their players. Their three midfielders aren't particularly fast nor do they particularly excel at goal-scoring, but they control the ball so well that their defence can push up so high and choke the opposition strikers out of the game. Their defence has good players, but it's the shape of the team and their style of football that enables them to control the game and thus concede very few goals. It's the midfield and the strikers that allows this to happen.

 

I look at our team and I see players who contribute in this intangible way. I see Jonas - in his good days - who is one of the best outlets in our team, who allows our defence to push up, who pushes the other teams back which allows us to control the game. I saw Carroll who was able to hold the ball up and intimidate defences, which allowed our midfielders more time on the ball. I think Tiote is a magnificent player - probably the most important player in our team right now - and he's a player who's good on the ball and contributes so much to the shape of the team. Then I look at Nolan and all I see is goals. That would actually be fine if he was a striker, but he's not. He's occupying one of the most crucial positions on the pitch, and goals alone just aren't enough. They're more than enough now, for us, for a newly promoted team and for a team which would be more than happy at finishing 10th, but they will not be enough if we want to challenge regularly for Europe. He just doesn't contribute enough. That doesn't mean that he's not contributing enough now, because he does, but if we are to aspire to more, then I think it's less likely that we do so if he's a starter in the team.

 

Cracking post #1

 

Pretty much what I believe as well.

[ponsaelius]

I'd be worried if Nolan makes 260 league appearances for us tbh.

[Stu]

Aye, he'd be about 40

[TRon]

Take a look at Liverpool when they were good two seasons ago. They had Mascherano and Alonso in CM, and Kuyt and some shitfuck on the left. Barton's probably as good a player as Kuyt, and Ben Arfa is as good as anything they have on the left, but Liverpool completely dominated matches. They had more possession, more chances, and inevitably, scored more goals, and it all stemmed from having midfielders that contributed to the style and shape of the team. Tiote is our Mascherano - equally good imo. The only difference between our teams is Nolan and Alonso. Now Alonso was never prolific but he was so instrumental to their team (like he is now to Madrid) that his weakness in terms of goalscoring was more than made up by the intangible value of being able to dictate the game and control the ball.

 

If we are to progress, I see us having to go the same route. That, of course, means that we need some good strikers. We won't be able to get a Torres, but none of us are expecting to challenge for the title. If we are able to get some decent, mobile strikers, I think Nolan will quickly become superfluous in the team, while our other midfielders won't.

 

cracking post #2

 

No one is saying we should be Barcelona right now btw, it's just the sort of football we should aspire to. I also look forward to seeing what impact Ireland has as he's the kind of midfielder who can be part of a good passing side provided his head is on right.