Chris Hughton

[James]

Which teams are these we turned over?

 

For an example Wolves.

 

Hughton 1 - 1 Draw.

Pardew 4 - 1 Win.

 

While at the same time still putting in creditable performances (and getting some sort of result) against the top teams.

 

Not meaning to criticise Hughton who did a good job, but I think people are trying to spin things to justify an unjustifiable stance on Alan Pardew.

[Wullie]

Which teams are these we turned over?

 

For an example Wolves.

 

Hughton 1 - 1 Draw.

Pardew 4 - 1 Win.

 

While at the same time still putting in creditable performances (and getting some sort of result) against the top teams.

 

Not meaning to criticise Hughton who did a good job, but I think people are trying to spin things to justify an unjustifiable stance on Alan Pardew.

 

A 1-1 away from home is a "problem"?

 

What about beating Arsenal, Everton, sunderland and Villa, all of whom Pardew failed to win against? Your argument's a nonsense.

 

The only side he beat that CH didn't was Wigan - and if we'd played them without N'Zogbia at home, we'd have won that too.

[David28]

Which teams are these we turned over?

 

For an example Wolves.

 

Hughton 1 - 1 Draw.

Pardew 4 - 1 Win.

 

While at the same time still putting in creditable performances (and getting some sort of result) against the top teams.

 

Not meaning to criticise Hughton who did a good job, but I think people are trying to spin things to justify an unjustifiable stance on Alan Pardew.

 

An 1-1 away from home is a "problem"?

 

What about beating Arsenal, Everton, sunderland and Villa, all of whom Pardew failed against? Your argument's a nonsense.

 

Added to that, Wolves were much stronger at the start of the season than at the time Pardew faced them.

[Optimistic Nut]

You could counter that by saying Everton were in a much stronger position when Pardew played them.

[Optimistic Nut]

While we played Villa when they were fighting for their lives to get the win to drag them out of trouble and we had nowt to play for whereas in August we were on the crest of a wave after promotion and they were managerless.

[David28]

In August we were on the back of a heavy defeat to Man Utd in which we looked way off the pace of a Premier League team imo.

 

The Villa win in August was quite lucky, though. Had Carew not missed the penalty or had Steve Harper been sent off (like it should have been) it would have ended differently.

[80]

Which teams are these we turned over?

 

For an example Wolves.

 

Hughton 1 - 1 Draw.

Pardew 4 - 1 Win.

 

While at the same time still putting in creditable performances (and getting some sort of result) against the top teams.

 

To an extent, I'm not even sure why you're talking about results because I was following on from Chris and thinking about the atmosphere behind the scenes and public rhetoric. Re-reading my post in that light might get you somewhere instead of having you barking up the wrong tree.

 

There've been a number of pessimistic remarks from Pardew, including one or two surprisingly negative ones, about how we're a worse team than the bigger clubs and should be grateful for anything we get from them. But that hopefully we'll be able to buy some better players and be more competitive in those kinds of fixtures in the future, of course. Then there's things he's said like in the long BBC radio interview where after dumping Routledge he indicated there were at least a couple more members of the squad who he thought aren't meant to be in Premiership sides but that we'll struggle on with them and he'll have to try and get the best out of them. And, returning to my original point, there's just a groaning lack of the positivity and coherent squad worldview that was being expressed by the players prior to Hughton's departure nowadays - see Carroll quotes, Enrique quotes... even Barton's moustache.

 

The thing that used to strike me under Hughton (and contrasting with now) is that we always went out on the pitch as equals of our opposition. We went out with a 90 minute plan to win, saw no reason why we couldn't win, but also gave them a lot of credit and realised we could do an 08/09 and lose too. Now, I could see some downsides to this - maybe we should have been more arrogant towards Blackburn and played less cautiously - flat-track bullied them into submission with our obviously(??) superior quality (although remember Allardyce managed them at the time, they weren't the demoralised shitpit they became under Steve Kean when we went and got a draw at Ewood Park). But in return I'd point out the Arsenal tried that approach and got fucked up almost as regularly as us against so called bankers, and they really are superior in technical quality to them and us.

 

Now as for what we do today, well it seems the results are more random. If we don't roll up and accept a beating as we did at Spurs and Liverpool (we seriously threw away points at White Hart Lane and against Man City in my view), it seems we either treat it like we're 3rd Divisioners in the FA Cup and 'give it a go' or attempt a flat-track bullying. Either way, it amounts to the same thing under Pardew - we set out to score early, and ultimately whoever scores first is vastly more likely to win the match as a rule. The better teams normally score against us, and we normally score against the worst teams.

 

Beyond that, we don't really seem to know what to do in tactical terms, which is probably why - unlike our opposition - we keep dropping leads (see my post in the Pardew thread for statistics on that if you want to claim one match against Arsenal disproves everything I'm saying - http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,72878.msg2976612.html#msg2976612). We either hope the opposition's morale crumples and give them a hiding (West Ham), or accept we're already beaten and take our lumps (Aston Villa, Stoke).

[Dave]

Didn't Pardew have a better have a better points to games ratio than Hughton in the Premiership, despite playing 6 of the top 7 at home and only having Carroll for 3 games was it? How many points as a player was he worth to us?

 

Pardew was 1.23 versus 1.19 for Hughton. Extended over a full season that would put Pardew less than two points better off. And that's including the Liverpool win as his. Taking that out and assigning it to neither of them, Pardew would be at 1.14 - more than three points worse off than Hughton over a full season.

 

Carroll scored ultimately decisive goals in three games under Hughton, getting us eight points. He got nothing for Pardew. This is a very simplistic way of looking at it though.

 

To me there's very little evidence to suggest that Pardew is an upgrade on Hughton, certainly not a significant enough one to justify the change anyway.

[Frazzle]

Carroll still brought more than goals.  Defending set pieces especially.

[Dave]

Carroll still brought more than goals.  Defending set pieces especially.

 

Yep, and it doesn't reflect direct assists and build up play. As mentioned it's a pretty useless method looking at things.

[80]

Carroll still brought more than goals.  Defending set pieces especially.

 

Yep, and it doesn't reflect direct assists and build up play. As mentioned it's a pretty useless method looking at things.

 

Agreed. That said, seeing as it's never been done before...

 

Didn't Pardew have a better have a better points to games ratio than Hughton in the Premiership, despite playing 6 of the top 7 at home and only having Carroll for 3 games was it? How many points as a player was he worth to us?

 

Pardew was 1.23 versus 1.19 for Hughton. Extended over a full season that would put Pardew less than two points better off. And that's including the Liverpool win as his. Taking that out and assigning it to neither of them, Pardew would be at 1.14 - more than three points worse off than Hughton over a full season.

 

If you try assigning the Liverpool win to Hughton, his rate rises to 1.29, putting him nearly 6 points ahead of Pardew.

 

Personally, I was expecting a win that day...

[Baggio]

Didn't Pardew have a better have a better points to games ratio than Hughton in the Premiership, despite playing 6 of the top 7 at home and only having Carroll for 3 games was it? How many points as a player was he worth to us?

 

Pardew was 1.23 versus 1.19 for Hughton. Extended over a full season that would put Pardew less than two points better off. And that's including the Liverpool win as his. Taking that out and assigning it to neither of them, Pardew would be at 1.14 - more than three points worse off than Hughton over a full season.

 

Carroll scored ultimately decisive goals in three games under Hughton, getting us eight points. He got nothing for Pardew. This is a very simplistic way of looking at it though.

 

To me there's very little evidence to suggest that Pardew is an upgrade on Hughton, certainly not a significant enough one to justify the change anyway.

 

I don't see why Pardew shouldn't be given the credit for the Liverpool win, I thought it was an even game until he threw Ranger on which effectively changed the game.

 

As I've also pointed out for me Pardew easily had the harder home fixtures which is where I expect us to pick up the majority of our points, in fact it reminded me of the same situation a few seasons earlier where Keegan took over from Allardyce and had the harder fixtures to contend with.

 

The Carroll point too is a valid one, how much of a miss has he been to us in the second half of the season? If he's been a big miss then surely Pardew should get credit for carrying on picking up points without him?

[80]

The Carroll point too is a valid one, how much of a miss has he been to us in the second half of the season? If he's been a big miss then surely Pardew should get credit for carrying on picking up points without him?

 

I'll happily give you that one, although I'm not sure who doesn't.

 

As for home games, he got 3 wins in 10 matches (I totally disagree re: Liverpool), compared to Hughton's 2 in 8. I don't see how long throw Stoke, our Derby against Sunderland, runners up Chelsea and Allardyce's Blackburn have become so much easier a set of games than Tottenham bottlers, Arsenal who we'd already beaten, bottom-placed West Ham and Bolton. Again, bearing in mind he had 25% more games than Hughton at home, it's pretty similar for me.

[Baggio]

The Carroll point too is a valid one, how much of a miss has he been to us in the second half of the season? If he's been a big miss then surely Pardew should get credit for carrying on picking up points without him?

 

I'll happily give you that one, although I'm not sure who doesn't.

 

As for home games, he got 3 wins in 10 matches (I totally disagree re: Liverpool), compared to Hughton's 2 in 8. I don't see how long throw Stoke, our Derby against Sunderland, runners up Chelsea and Allardyce's Blackburn have become so much easier a set of games than Tottenham bottlers, Arsenal who we'd already beaten, bottom-placed West Ham and Bolton. Again, bearing in mind he had 25% more games than Hughton at home, it's pretty similar for me.

 

The standard of home fixtures were not similar at all.

 

Comparing the likes of Blackburn and Stoke to Spurs and Arsenal, I mean come on now...

 

 

[colinmk]

But also we've gotten very good results against the majority of the bigger teams.

 

What?

 

Discounting Liverpool for obvious reasons, Pardew hasn't beaten any team that wasn't still in danger of going down on the final day.

 

Hughton on the other hand beat four of the top ten (two on their own patch) plus Chelsea in the cup, yet he's the one that's tactically inept.

 

Yet Hughton's failed to get results against so called 'home bankers', they're both average managers for different reasons.

 

I think sensible people would recognize that a) Hughton was still learning as a manager and b) he's already shown that he can get results against poorer sides and do it at home by losing only four games in the Championship and staying undefeated at SJP.

 

Sensible isn't allowed because Hughton isn't with us anymore!

[80]

The Carroll point too is a valid one, how much of a miss has he been to us in the second half of the season? If he's been a big miss then surely Pardew should get credit for carrying on picking up points without him?

 

I'll happily give you that one, although I'm not sure who doesn't.

 

As for home games, he got 3 wins in 10 matches (I totally disagree re: Liverpool), compared to Hughton's 2 in 8. I don't see how long throw Stoke, our Derby against Sunderland, runners up Chelsea and Allardyce's Blackburn have become so much easier a set of games than Tottenham bottlers, Arsenal who we'd already beaten, bottom-placed West Ham and Bolton. Again, bearing in mind he had 25% more games than Hughton at home, it's pretty similar for me.

 

The standard of home fixtures were not similar at all.

 

Comparing the likes of Blackburn and Stoke to Spurs and Arsenal, I mean come on now...

 

 

 

I'd rather match up Chelsea with Arsenal, Sunderland with Tottenham (esp. given the significance of the game). I also consider Stoke a shit of a fixture.

[Hanshithispantz]

The Liverpool win was Pardew's like

 

And although people will say "but it was Hughtons team selection anyway" it was ultimately Pardews decision to bring Ranger on which won us the game.

 

He's not an improvement though imo, and he won't gert any better, Hughton would have imo.

[Ronaldo]

He's 50 years old, of course he'll get better.

[Guest BlacknWhiteArmy]

The Liverpool win was Pardew's like

 

And although people will say "but it was Hughtons team selection anyway" it was ultimately Pardews decision to bring Ranger on which won us the game.

 

He's not an improvement though imo, and he won't gert any better, Hughton would have imo.

 

Hughton would have played Lovenkrands up front with Carroll if he was still there imo.

[Chris_R]

For me, Hughton was sacked when we were 12th and Pardew took over, sold our best player for £35m, got no replacements, and lead us to 12th by the end of the season. I think that's how it was anyway with regards to league positions, might be wrong, sure someone will correct me.

 

But Pardew seems to me to have done about as well as Hughton but minus Carroll, which to me indicates he's been at least as good a manager as Hughton. I also like Hughton's approach to things, how he wants us to play good attacking football and how he's keen to get players in with pace and skill.

 

I was as angry as anyone when Hughton went, still don't think he deserved to be sacked, but I do think Hughton is a better manager. Maybe not massively better, but better all the same.

[Dokko]

For me, Hughton was sacked when we were 12th and Pardew took over, sold our best player for £35m, got no replacements, and lead us to 12th by the end of the season. I think that's how it was anyway with regards to league positions, might be wrong, sure someone will correct me.

 

But Pardew seems to me to have done about as well as Hughton but minus Carroll, which to me indicates he's been at least as good a manager as Hughton. I also like Hughton's approach to things, how he wants us to play good attacking football and how he's keen to get players in with pace and skill.

 

I was as angry as anyone when Hughton went, still don't think he deserved to be sacked, but I do think Hughton is a better manager. Maybe not massively better, but better all the same.

 

That reads like you are getting Pardew and Hughton mixed up in the last two paras.

[Hanshithispantz]

He's 50 years old, of course he'll get better.

Just started his trade, regardless of his age he was still fairly inexperienced and learning.

 

Simple stuff tbh.

[Baggio]

The Carroll point too is a valid one, how much of a miss has he been to us in the second half of the season? If he's been a big miss then surely Pardew should get credit for carrying on picking up points without him?

 

I'll happily give you that one, although I'm not sure who doesn't.

 

As for home games, he got 3 wins in 10 matches (I totally disagree re: Liverpool), compared to Hughton's 2 in 8. I don't see how long throw Stoke, our Derby against Sunderland, runners up Chelsea and Allardyce's Blackburn have become so much easier a set of games than Tottenham bottlers, Arsenal who we'd already beaten, bottom-placed West Ham and Bolton. Again, bearing in mind he had 25% more games than Hughton at home, it's pretty similar for me.

 

The standard of home fixtures were not similar at all.

 

Comparing the likes of Blackburn and Stoke to Spurs and Arsenal, I mean come on now...

 

 

 

I'd rather match up Chelsea with Arsenal, Sunderland with Tottenham (esp. given the significance of the game). I also consider Stoke a shit of a fixture.

 

Stoke's away form was absolutely terrible last season, in fact only Bolton picked up less points away from home.

 

Even if you match up Chelsea with Arsenal and Spurs with Sunderland (that I don't agree with btw) you've still got the likes of Man City, Man Utd, Liverpool and Everton out of the top 7  that fall on Pardew's watch.

 

I'm not even sure this can be up for debate.

[Ronaldo]

He's 50 years old, of course he'll get better.

Just started his trade, regardless of his age he was still fairly inexperienced and learning.

 

Simple stuff tbh.

 

What on earth are you talking about?

[JH]

Round and round and round we go.

 

Hey, what do you guys think of the Carroll sale?