Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Can I just say that discussions like this and the ones that Beren has created around what we think of certain players are far more interesting to me personally rather than analysing Pardew's body language when he's walking down the tunnel after a match.

 

Hear hear.

 

A thousand times yes.

[Beren]

How highly do you rate... Alan Pardew? (as a footballer)

[Nobody]

Can I just say that discussions like this and the ones that Beren has created around what we think of certain players are far more interesting to me personally rather than analysing Pardew's body language when he's walking down the tunnel after a match.

Except that I've never seen Pele and barely nowt of Maradona so I can't join in the debate.

 

You've always got Zlatan Muslimovic to fall back on.

[Flip]

For me it seems the name and aura of Pele count against him. Don't get me wrong his opinion counts for very little due to some of the absurd comments he makes and some of the products he has controversially endorsed. It seems that people will do anything to discredit the first real superstar of football. Let's not forgot that this is a man that once stopped a civil war, brought a game to a whole new nation in the United States, even after he retired it took Brazil 24 years to win a World Cup without him.

 

Look at his achievements as a 17 year old in the 1958 World Cup, has anybody ever scored a better goal in a World Cup Final than Pele did in 1958? Also why do people so easily dismiss the matches he played for Santos against European opposition? Santos at the time played matches against the best sides in Europe who were deemed the best around, yet Santos and Pele in particular didn't just win these games they quite frankly dominated against the very best teams in the world.

 

You rarely hear people say George Best, Di Stefano, Puskas Gerd Muller, Eusebio or Cruijff played against poor defences at the time to belittle their standing in the world of football so why is it acceptable to do this against Pele? Why do people often come out with the ignorance about the state the Brasilian league was in around the time of Pele? Back in Pele's era the Brasilian league was arguably the best in the world as most of their star players didn't play their trade abroad.

 

Their national team was dominant for the best part of a decade, so if the core of such a dominant squad didn't play abroad so why does this make the Brasilian league so poor in that era? I don't think they would've won the 1966 World Cup even if Pele was fit, as at that team it was very much a team in transition with the likes of Garrincha being on a downward spiral and players like Jairzinho not quite being ready at the time.

 

It seems the way people try to dismiss Pele's goalscoring achievement is that he scored the majority of his goals being put through on goal and only having tap-ins to score due to the opposition defences being so poor, never mind the fact he scored every variety of goal. Was it the poor defences that allowed him to score free-kicks or from 30 yards out so consistently?

 

Let's look at the 1970 World Cup, the tournament that guaranteed Pele a place as football's first footballing superstar. Of course part of this was due to the aura the 1970 Brasil team had, it being the first world cup that was televised in colour and made it more accessible to audiences etc. That Brasil team would've won that World Cup without Pele regardless as the team was that good and had some true footballing greats in there like Tostao, Carlos Alberto, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Gerson. Yet Pele stood head and shoulders above all of his team mates. This was a 29 year old Pele, was was past his peak as injuries had taken their toll and he was a completely different player to the Pele of his peak years of 5 years earlier before he had lost that explosiveness due to the injuries that he had sustained from brutal defending. His game was now about being a true playmaker (something which I could see Messi doing when he has lost some of his pace), bringing others into play with his fantastic vision, being the focal point of all of the attacking play of the team. Yet he still managed to put in one of the most iconic performances of any player in the history of the World Cup despite being past his best, yet his greatness enabled him to do this and he was that intelligent on the pitch he was enable to change his game.

 

Excluding all of the above based on his pure footballing talent, he is without a doubt the most complete player to have ever graced a football pitch which is why I rate him as the greatest player of all time. He wasn't just one footed like Maradona or Messi, he was equally adept with his left as he was with his right. Despite only being 5 foot 8 he had a great leap and scored many headers against far more physical or taller opposition. He had explosive pace and could run the 100m in 11 seconds. He was the greatest exponent of the bicycle kick there has ever been. He created many of the tricks people use today. He was often seen performing the "seal" dribble as a way of getting past his opponents, I've also never witnessed anybody hit the ball off an opposition player as a way of getting past them as he knew what trajectory the ball would go when going off them. (He also done this off referees). He had amazing dribbling speed and fantastic ball control, his movement of course was amazing. He inspired players around him and made them better players. His vision and footballing intelligence was world class which allowed him to turn into a playmaker late on in his career after he had lost some of that explosive pace. At times he often played in different positions on the pitch as he was good enough to do so and even once saved a penalty for Santos.

 

People also often say he wouldn't be as good in the modern game due to how technology has now been deployed and the enhancements the game has seen since then. Well if Pele was that good without all of the modern day nutrition and fitness regimes, having to use the old style balls, boots etc, how could he be in today's game with all of those advancements on this side?

 

Lastly some people might say he's not the greatest of all time but it simply cannot be argued that he is the most complete footballer to have ever played the game.

 

:clap:

 

Maybe that will kick some sense into people, especially those talking about how Pele wouldn't be able to succeed in todays game as it has developed so much. People tend to forget that in Pele's era Messi would possibly not even be a footballer as he wouldn't be able to inject the growth hormones that are available nowadays. I don't condemn them, I find it good there are these types of medicine and hormones to develop human beings but if people take that route when arguing then it's easy to get at that when arguing against Messi. 

[Disco]

Way to make a non-point and discredit yourself there 'pao.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

I found out the other day that he's not even Brazilian, he's from Sweden or something. Sweden. Sweden.

[Nobody]

I found out the other day that he's not even Brazilian, he's from Sweden or something. Sweden. Sweden.

[Flip]

I found out the other day that he's not even Brazilian, he's from Sweden or something. Sweden. Sweden.

 

cheeky bastard. I live in sweden ffs.

[Flip]

Way to make a non-point and discredit yourself there 'pao.

 

Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones? Im just saying that people go out saying Pele would never make it nowadays, what says Messi would make it without them back in the 50s and 60s?

 

If you can give me a valid reason. Please do. Ive said all along that I love Messi but Tooj made a very good and concrete post showing the ignorance of many on here.

[Disco]

Way to make a non-point and discredit yourself there 'pao.

 

Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones? Im just saying that people go out saying Pele would never make it nowadays, what says Messi would make it without them back in the 50s and 60s?

 

If you can give me a valid reason. Please do. Ive said all along that I love Messi but Tooj made a very good and concrete post showing the ignorance of many on here.

 

 

Superb post on Pele btw, last line is spot on.

 

I'm not one of them RE: Pele being unable play nowadays and if I was it's such a non-argument that it should be discarded anyway.

 

Just believe the Messi hormone thing is a total cheap shot and more or less totally irrelevant.

[Flip]

Way to make a non-point and discredit yourself there 'pao.

 

Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones? Im just saying that people go out saying Pele would never make it nowadays, what says Messi would make it without them back in the 50s and 60s?

 

If you can give me a valid reason. Please do. Ive said all along that I love Messi but Tooj made a very good and concrete post showing the ignorance of many on here.

 

 

Superb post on Pele btw, last line is spot on.

 

I'm not one of them RE: Pele being unable play nowadays and if I was it's such a non-argument that it should be discarded anyway.

 

Just believe the Messi hormone thing is a total cheap shot and more or less totally irrelevant.

 

Oh I do agree with you, but it's totally relevant when people go on about how other players wouldn't cope nowadays.

[Guest ObiChrisKenobi]

I found out the other day that he's not even Brazilian, he's from Sweden or something. Sweden. Sweden.

 

cheeky bastard. I live in sweden ffs.

 

Well, I was talking about you. 

[Flip]

I know

[mrmojorisin75]

Way to not see the point. Messi never took growth hormones?

 

how big is messi now out of interest, was he a hobbit before barca swooped on with their magic growth pills i wonder?

 

his game has very little to do with physique so unless he was literally a tiny, tiny cripple prior to the GH treatment it's a shit point

[Flip]

Without the injections of growth hormones he would probably not been able to live a normal life. He was born with a deficiency where his pituitary gland  doesn't produce these growth hormones, there are cases where children who don't receive treatment have problems with not only height but muscle development deficiency as well. So no it's not a shit point to make that he wouldn't be the footballer he is today without the treatment.

 

I'm NOT saying Messi isn't the best in the world or debating whether he is or isn't the best ever right now. I'm just trying to explain the reasoning behind my argument and not trying to take a cheap shot. I'm not calling it doping or performance enhancing, some people grow up with deficinencies and thankfully the world and science has reached the stage where there are treatments for most things in life, and that people can live a healthier life.

 

This is all RE: Pele wouldn't make it in this ERA.

[Guest tollemache]

On what grounds wouldn't Pele have made it now? He'd have the same facilities as everyone else, just as he did then. The concept of being freakishly more talented and having better technique than anyone else hasn't changed. In fact the game now, being as it is way more focused on technique and less on physicality, would tend to make him appear even better than he did then, as he wouldn't be exposed to such constant physical intimidation.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Pele was technically and physically way ahead of most in his day and would still be today. At the time, he was as Messi is today, a freak of nature.

[Flip]

That's the point I've been trying to make for many months on here right now. In terms of talent, Pele is as good as it gets. Maradona, Zico, Messi, Garrincha are in tier right below. That's my personal opinion obviousy.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

That's the point I've been trying to make for many months on here right now. In terms of talent, Pele is as good as it gets. Maradona, Zico, Messi, Garrincha are in tier right below. That's my personal opinion obviousy.

 

I agree actually. Messi is amazing as we all know and already a world great, right the way up there with Pele but Pele is Pele and will never be bettered. Its not just about his ability, what he won, the goals he scored, his style of play etc. its the legend of Pele. In all of the years before Pele there was nothing like him and never has been since, and never will be. We have seen a good number damn close, probably Maradona runs him the closest and Ronaldo would have but for those injuries. Messi may eclipse his stats and win more trophies but as a legend, as an icon, as a true true great and that's what we are debating here, not talent, nothing will ever eclipse Pele in the sport of football.

 

Everyone knows about Pele, kids not even born yet will know about Pele. There was no internet, global game coverage etc. back in Pele's day which makes his legend all the more magnificent.

 

Don't get me wrong, in terms of ability and what he can do with a football, Messi is on a par with Pele, but he will never be as great as Pele in terms of greatness which transcends mere ability alone.

 

Pele is the godfather of football basically. The boss.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

[Flip]

Kid Icarus, you're actually typing non-sense there.

 

In the basketball world, even in our own forum, we have had discussions about whether Jordan was the absolute best. It's nowhere near being a consensus. Also taking Valentino Rossi and Tiger Woods into such a discussions shows a lack of recognition to that both of them are stars at sports competing individually. I mean, in football you have to take so much into consideration and the same goes for Jordan, and basketball.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

 

Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing.

[Guest tollemache]

Don't see how you can relegate Maradona into some kind of second tier... he single-handedly dominated pretty much every game he played in for a long time, carried his country to the World Cup, carried an ok Napoli side to the scudetto. In terms of having a freakish impact and towering above his peers, he was every bit as dominant as Pele.

[Tooj]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_MT1X_Hpnt_o/TM9lOzkpuzI/AAAAAAAABaU/6B8E1Psvb3U/s400/Pele+Simpsons.jpg

 

Paylay.

[Guest tollemache]

I don't think that's true at all. If Pele  was the absolute, untouchable best and the undisputed icon and always will be then these debates wouldn't happen and keep happening.

 

It's not the same as it is with Michael Jordan, Valentino Rossi or perhaps even Tiger Woods. In those cases there's barely a debate, it's almost a consensus.

 

Football is more like it is with boxing, everyone thinks they're right about who would have beaten who and who is the greatest of all time. Neither boxing nor football have someone like Michael Jordan that's almost undisputedly the best of all time. Imo there's a very good chance that Messi can be that icon, because no one else has been it yet.

 

Its simple, for me Messi based on ability is one of the very best to have ever played the game, up there with Pele, no doubts about it. As a great though, I don't think anyone will ever topple Pele. They may outscore him, win more etc. but no name will ever be bigger than Pele's. Just look at this very debate, 40 years or so after he was in his prime, with most never having seen him play live, and still we cannot escape his name, despite what we are seeing with Messi which is staggering what he is achieving and how he is playing.

 

You don't think people will be calling Messi the greatest player ever 40 years from now?