mrmojorisin75 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 give up KI, totally pointless Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 He dominates in his own way and has done so at the very top level (except for the World Cup final, admittedly) Aye - scoring goals. Playing more like Xavi you know - steady on. Didn't this whole debate start out with you calling someone for saying that Ronaldo is just a goalscorer? I dunno why I'm entertaining you tbh, you're irritating as fuck. Trying to have any sort of debate with you ends up being a thankless struggle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 He dominates in his own way and has done so at the very top level (except for the World Cup final, admittedly) Aye - scoring goals. Playing more like Xavi you know - steady on. Didn't this whole debate start out with you calling someone for saying that Ronaldo is just a goalscorer? I dunno why I'm entertaining you tbh, you're irritating as f***. Trying to have any sort of debate with you ends up being a thankless struggle. I'm not saying Messi is just a goalscorer though. Through this whole debate i've said he's one of the greatest of all time - probably better than Ronaldo too. But narrowly. I just don't think C. Ronaldo is some suped up Pippo Inzaghi and Messi some type of Ronaldo, Zidane & Xavi hybrid on roids. They are more similar than the narrative often portrays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 It's difficult to work out exactly how that point is supposed to be coming across when your reply was 'aye - scoring goals' to a point about him dominating in his own way. It reads precisely like you're saying him scoring goals is how he dominates in his own way. Then laughing at the idea of one of the roles that he plays being almost Xavi-like, as in dropping deep, spreading play and playing key passes, which he does a lot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Messi has been our best non-defensive midfielder this season. Now that he has the likes of Neymar and Suárez as striker partners he's dropped back and gets involved in the buildup far more, partially making up for the decline of Xaviesta. Cronaldo could never do that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/morris-feature-messi-2.png?w=1024 http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/morris-feature-messi-31.png?w=1024 http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/morris-feature-messi-5.png?w=1024 http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/morris-feature-messi-6.png?w=1024 http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/morris-feature-messi-82.png?w=1024 http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/morris-feature-messi-12.png?w=1024 http://espnfivethirtyeight.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/morris-feature-messi-133.png?w=1024 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 He could like. Cristiano Ronaldo could do anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Bringing international games into is always going to be contentious, Zidane was in a great French team that won things, had Messi chosen to play for Spain and not Argentina, Messi would probably have a greater claim to being the best ever, perhaps wrongly just based on that. Ronaldo is about as effective for Portugal as Messi is for Argentina, it's an odd one. Messi just looked disinterested in that World Cup Final, there's no getting away from that, but I don't take the World Cup as the zenith anymore, that's the Champions League now imo. There's no higher level than that. Maybe in time there'll be an international equivalent as well, which would be brilliant. The World Cup will always be the zenith for players coming from big footballing countries for me, no matter how I look at it. It's a much harder competition to win since it's only every 4 years and players have to perform at systems they most of the time aren't as comfortable with as it's different from their clubs. I mean you could win the CL 10 times during your career even if that's extremely unlikely of ever happening, but it'd be impossible to win 10 world cups. I mean, I know the CL has a higher level of football but the World Cup is still harder to win as you have to be at your best for many games in a short period of time. The answer to this question is George Best. If Messi had become a Spanish player (as he very nearly did) would you think he was better than he is now for having been part of that Spanish team? Which is why I clearly said big footballing countries. Messi would still be the best player of his generation even if he had chosen Spain. My only problem with Messi is that he's never played for Newcastle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 He could like. Cristiano Ronaldo could do anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Messi has been our best non-defensive midfielder this season. Now that he has the likes of Neymar and Suárez as striker partners he's dropped back and gets involved in the buildup far more, partially making up for the decline of Xaviesta. Cronaldo could never do that. He could like. Cristiano Ronaldo could do anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Messi is rotten. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 My point is he rarely dominates games in the style of Xavi or even a Zidane. He dominates games by impacting in the final third - as does Ronaldo. Especially when he's been played as a false nine under Martino and Vilanova. Messi does get more involved in general play but it's not like he's this Xavi/Ronaldo hybrid. Over the last 2-3 years Messi has played in sides featuring Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta & Fabregas - he didn't do a lot of playmaking in that period. He wasn't dropping into #4 positions. For Argentina (from what i've seen) he's had more opportunity to "being almost Xavi-like" because you know - Xavi isn't there and he simply hasn't done it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I would say I haven't seen a tremendous amount of Messi this season. I saw Barcelona far more frequently under Tito & Martino. I watched plenty of league matches last season and saw the man live in the flesh. He certainly wasn't doing all of that. Under Martino the side look very positionally rigid - Messi certainly wasn't dropping extremely deep. I can accept the City performance might be typical of his form post-Christmas but that hasn't been the case for a good number of years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Pick who you like as your favourite, but there isn't much in it. If you think there is you're wrong. A man scoring 60 goals in a calendar year for 4 straight years and people reckon there's someone who's far better or on another planet. It's kinda laughable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 My point is he rarely dominates games in the style of Xavi or even a Zidane. He dominates games by impacting in the final third - as does Ronaldo. Especially when he's been played as a false nine under Martino and Vilanova. Messi does get more involved in general play but it's not like he's this Xavi/Ronaldo hybrid. Over the last 2-3 years Messi has played in sides featuring Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta & Fabregas - he didn't do a lot of playmaking in that period. He wasn't dropping into #4 positions. For Argentina (from what i've seen) he's had more opportunity to "being almost Xavi-like" because you know - Xavi isn't there and he simply hasn't done it. I would say I haven't seen a tremendous amount of Messi this season. Case closed tbh. Even if you watch the highlights of him vs Espanyol from the weekend you'll see him doing that most of the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Pick who you like as your favourite, but there isn't much in it. If you think there is you're wrong. A man scoring 60 goals in a calendar year for 4 straight years and people reckon there's someone who's far better or on another planet. It's kinda laughable. It's absolutely not though, opinions and all that obviously, but to me and to a lot of people there's a great deal in it. Messi is Messi, Ronaldo is a footballer. Ronaldo is a fantastic footballer, but he hasn't done anything that I haven't seen before, Messi did for about 4 or 5 years and looks to be back to that form again now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 He could like. Luis Suarez could do anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Pick who you like as your favourite, but there isn't much in it. If you think there is you're wrong. A man scoring 60 goals in a calendar year for 4 straight years and people reckon there's someone who's far better or on another planet. It's kinda laughable. It's not just about goals though as i have tried to explain, just watch what Messi does he just has a far bigger impact on the game than anyone else out there. He could never score again and he'd still be the best player on the planet, he can never have a shot and still be the best player on the pitch. No one else can do that, this is why i hate stats it doesn't even come close to approaching the impact of what Messi has on a football pitch in a wide way of situations. If Zidane was 25 now and started his career 5 or 6 years ago he'd be insanely underrated and never be seen as the player he is because he wouldn't be scoring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 The other point to make is that if you include stats...that also massively works in Messi's favour considering he has pretty much every single record going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Ronaldo World Records •Most international goals in a year (club and national team): 25 goals (shared with Vivian Woodward & Lionel Messi) •First player to reach 40 goals in a professional league in two consecutive seasons •First player to score in every minute of a game •Only player to have won the following trophies at 2 different clubs: League Title, UEFA CL, League Supercup, League Cup, League MVP, Golden Boot, Ballon d'Or, and FIFA CWC (Completed on December 20th, 2014) •Only player in history to have scored 60 or more goals in a calendar year four times (consecutively from 2011 to 2014) •Most appearances in the FIFPro World XI: 8 times (2007-2014) (shared with Lionel Messi) •First and only player to appear in the FIFPro World XI for two different clubs Ronaldo European Records •Most European Golden Shoe awards: 3 (shared with Lionel Messi) •Most goals scored in a European Cup season: 17 goals •Most UEFA Champions League goals scored in the calendar year: 15 goals in 2013 •Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League group stage in a single season: 9 goals (shared with Luiz Adriano) •Most consecutive UEFA Champions League matches scored in: 8 matches •First and only player to have won the European Golden Shoe in 2 different leagues (EPL with Man Utd and La Liga with Real Madrid) •First footballer to ever score more than 10 goals in three consecutive UEFA Champions League seasons •First footballer in the history of the European Cup to score for two different winning teams •Most goals scored in UEFA Champions League knockout phase: 37 goals •Most wins in the UEFA Champions League Knockout phase: 29 wins •Most headed goals scored in the UEFA Champions League: 12 goals •Most games played in the UEFA Champions League knockout stage: 53 games (shared with Iker Casillas) •Most consecutive wins in the UEFA Champions League: 14 wins •Most goals scored in the Uefa European Championships for Portugal: 23 goals •Most consecutive UEFA Champions League away matches scored in: 12 •Most away goals scored in the UEFA Champions League: 38 •Most UEFA Team of the Year appearances: 9 times •Most consecutive appearances in the UEFA Team of the Year: 8 consecutive times (2007-2014)•Only player to be among the finalists for all the editions of the UEFA Best Player in Europe (2010-2014) •Fastest player to reach 200 goals in Europe's top 5 leagues •Player with the best goal average in Europe's top 5 leagues with 100+ goals •All time top scorer in European competitions (including Uefa Super Cup and Champions League qualifiers): 78 goals •Most goals scored in Champions League history: 75 goals (shared with Lionel Messi) •The first player in history to surpass 30 goals in five consecutive seasons in a major European league •Fastest player to score 250 goals in Europe's top 5 leagues •Fastest player to score 300 goals in Europe's top 5 leagues (216 with Real Madrid, 84 with Manchester United) Ronaldo Spanish Records •The first player to score against every team in La Liga in a single season •The first player ever to score in six consecutive Clásicos •The first player to score 20 away goals in a single season in La Liga •Most league matches scored in in a single season: 27 games (2011/12) (Shared with Lionel Messi) •Most goals scored in three consecutive La Liga matches: 9 goals (shared with László Kubala, Mundo and Campanal) •Most opponents scored against in a single season: 19 (2011/12) (Shared with Lionel Messi and Ronaldo) •First footballer to score more than 25 goals in five consecutive La Liga seasons (shared with Lionel Messi) •First footballer to score more than 25 goals in six consecutive La Liga seasons (shared with Lionel Messi) •First player to score more than 50 goals in four consecutive seasons in Spanish football •Most hat-tricks in La Liga: 24 hat-tricks (shared with Lionel Messi) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 8 games: 15 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 10 games: 17 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 12 games: 20 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 15 games: 25 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) (shared with Pruden and Bata) •Most consecutive home matches scored in in La Liga (in which he played): 17 consecutive home games •Only player to win 3 LFP awards in one season (2013/14): Best player, Best forward and Best goal •Fastest La Liga player to score 100 league goals •Fastest La Liga player to score 150 league goals •Fastest La Liga player to score 200 league goals •Fastest player to score 300 official club goals •Best La Liga penalty conversion rate (of at least 30 PK's): 93% •The best goal ratio ever in La Liga: 1.11 Messi holds them all does he aye? :lol: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 He could like. Cristiano Ronaldo could do anything. Just seen this i give up, no point arguing with someone who actually thinks Ronaldo could drop deep and create Maradona style for others Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I watched Ronaldo every week for years. More than any of you. I know exactly what he can do. Obviously not as good as Messi in that particular case but Ronaldo can play anywhere and be ridiculously effective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Ronaldo World Records •Most international goals in a year (club and national team): 25 goals (shared with Vivian Woodward & Lionel Messi) •First player to reach 40 goals in a professional league in two consecutive seasons •First player to score in every minute of a game •Only player to have won the following trophies at 2 different clubs: League Title, UEFA CL, League Supercup, League Cup, League MVP, Golden Boot, Ballon d'Or, and FIFA CWC (Completed on December 20th, 2014) •Only player in history to have scored 60 or more goals in a calendar year four times (consecutively from 2011 to 2014) •Most appearances in the FIFPro World XI: 8 times (2007-2014) (shared with Lionel Messi) •First and only player to appear in the FIFPro World XI for two different clubs Ronaldo European Records •Most European Golden Shoe awards: 3 (shared with Lionel Messi) •Most goals scored in a European Cup season: 17 goals •Most UEFA Champions League goals scored in the calendar year: 15 goals in 2013 •Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League group stage in a single season: 9 goals (shared with Luiz Adriano) •Most consecutive UEFA Champions League matches scored in: 8 matches •First and only player to have won the European Golden Shoe in 2 different leagues (EPL with Man Utd and La Liga with Real Madrid) •First footballer to ever score more than 10 goals in three consecutive UEFA Champions League seasons •First footballer in the history of the European Cup to score for two different winning teams •Most goals scored in UEFA Champions League knockout phase: 37 goals •Most wins in the UEFA Champions League Knockout phase: 29 wins •Most headed goals scored in the UEFA Champions League: 12 goals •Most games played in the UEFA Champions League knockout stage: 53 games (shared with Iker Casillas) •Most consecutive wins in the UEFA Champions League: 14 wins •Most goals scored in the Uefa European Championships for Portugal: 23 goals •Most consecutive UEFA Champions League away matches scored in: 12 •Most away goals scored in the UEFA Champions League: 38 •Most UEFA Team of the Year appearances: 9 times •Most consecutive appearances in the UEFA Team of the Year: 8 consecutive times (2007-2014)•Only player to be among the finalists for all the editions of the UEFA Best Player in Europe (2010-2014) •Fastest player to reach 200 goals in Europe's top 5 leagues •Player with the best goal average in Europe's top 5 leagues with 100+ goals •All time top scorer in European competitions (including Uefa Super Cup and Champions League qualifiers): 78 goals •Most goals scored in Champions League history: 75 goals (shared with Lionel Messi) •The first player in history to surpass 30 goals in five consecutive seasons in a major European league •Fastest player to score 250 goals in Europe's top 5 leagues •Fastest player to score 300 goals in Europe's top 5 leagues (216 with Real Madrid, 84 with Manchester United) Ronaldo Spanish Records •The first player to score against every team in La Liga in a single season •The first player ever to score in six consecutive Clásicos •The first player to score 20 away goals in a single season in La Liga •Most league matches scored in in a single season: 27 games (2011/12) (Shared with Lionel Messi) •Most goals scored in three consecutive La Liga matches: 9 goals (shared with László Kubala, Mundo and Campanal) •Most opponents scored against in a single season: 19 (2011/12) (Shared with Lionel Messi and Ronaldo) •First footballer to score more than 25 goals in five consecutive La Liga seasons (shared with Lionel Messi) •First footballer to score more than 25 goals in six consecutive La Liga seasons (shared with Lionel Messi) •First player to score more than 50 goals in four consecutive seasons in Spanish football •Most hat-tricks in La Liga: 24 hat-tricks (shared with Lionel Messi) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 8 games: 15 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 10 games: 17 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 12 games: 20 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) •Most goals scored in La Liga after the first 15 games: 25 goals (and he didn't play in 1 of those games) (shared with Pruden and Bata) •Most consecutive home matches scored in in La Liga (in which he played): 17 consecutive home games •Only player to win 3 LFP awards in one season (2013/14): Best player, Best forward and Best goal •Fastest La Liga player to score 100 league goals •Fastest La Liga player to score 150 league goals •Fastest La Liga player to score 200 league goals •Fastest player to score 300 official club goals •Best La Liga penalty conversion rate (of at least 30 PK's): 93% •The best goal ratio ever in La Liga: 1.11 Messi holds them all does he aye? :lol: 'First'...so? A lot of them a reaching a bit as well like, pure 'Most colourful socks on a Monday' World Most FIFA Ballon d'Or awards: 4[392] Guinness World Records title for the most goals in a year (2012): 91 goals (96 goals including club friendlies)[393][394] Most consecutive league matches scored in: 21 matches (33 goals)[395] Most international goals in a calendar year (2012): 25 (shared with Vivian Woodward and Cristiano Ronaldo)[396] Only player to ever win all of the Ballon d’Or, FIFA World Player, Pichichi Trophy and Golden Shoe in the same season: 2009/2010[394] Youngest two-time/three-time/four-time Ballon d'Or winner: 23/24/25 years[397] Most FIFA Club World Cup Golden Balls: 2 (2009,[398] 2011[399]) [400] Most appearances in the top 3 candidates for the Ballon d'Or: 8 times (2007-2014)[401] Most appearances in the FIFPro World XI: 8 times (2007-2014) (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)[402] Europe Most European Golden Shoe awards: 3[403] Most goals scored in a season (club): 73 goals[130] Most goals scored in a year (club): 79 goals[404] Most European Cup top scorer awards: 4 (shared with Gerd Müller)[405] Most consecutive European Cup top scorer awards: 4[405] Most hat-tricks in UEFA Champions League: 5 hat-tricks[176] Highest scorer in a UEFA Champions League game: 5 goals[406] Most goals scored in the UEFA Champions League: 75 goals (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo)[407] Argentina Most goals scored in a year (national team): 12 goals (shared with Gabriel Batistuta)[408] Youngest player that have scored a goal at FIFA World Cup Finals: 18 years and 357 days old (2006 vs Serbia & Montenegro)[409] Most goals scored in International friendlies: 24 Most goals scored, alongside Javier Saviola, in all U-20 International competitions (2004-2005): 11 goals (14 goals including friendlies) Most goals scored in one FIFA World Cup qualification (2014): 10[410] Spain Most goals scored in La Liga history: 275 goals[411] Most assists made in La Liga history: 107 assists[199][note 2] Most hat-tricks in La Liga history (shared with Cristiano Ronaldo): 24[412] Most away goals scored in La Liga history: 120 goals[173][413] Most goals scored in La Liga in a season: 50 goals[414] Most consecutive La Liga matches scored in: 21 matches (33 goals)[395] Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8 hat-tricks[415] Youngest player to score 200 La Liga goals: 25 years[416] Most goals scored in El Clasico: 21[417] Most hat-tricks in El Clásico matches: 2[417] Most goals scored in Derbi barceloní matches: 12 goals[195] Most hat-tricks for a Spanish team: 32[200] Most braces in La Liga history: 80[418] Most goals scored in the Supercopa de España: 10 goals[415] Only top goalscorer and top assists supplier in the same league season: 2011/12 (50 goals and 15 assists)[394] First player to score in every game for half of La Liga season (2012/13): 30 goals (in 19 consecutive Matches)[394] Most Home goals in a league season (2011/12): 35 goals (in 19 Home matches)[394] Most Away goals in a league season (2012/13): 24 goals (in 19 Away matches)[394] Most Home matches scored in, in a league season (2011/12): 16 Most Away matches scored in, in a league season (2012/13): 15 games[394] Most La Liga matches scored in, in a season (2012/13): 27 matches (Shared with Cristiano Ronaldo) Most teams scored against in a season (2012/13): 19 (Shared with Ronaldo and Cristiano Ronaldo) Barcelona Top goalscorer in Barcelona history: 425[396] Top goalscorer in official competitions: 397[396] Top goalscorer in La Liga: 275[396] Top scorer in international competitions: 80[396] Top scorer in UEFA Champions League: 75[419] Most hat-tricks in Barcelona history: 32[200] Most away goals scored in Barcelona history in La Liga: 120 goals[413] Fastest Barcelona player to score a hat-trick: 12 minutes (2015 vs Rayo Vallecano)[201] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 Yeah so I took out the Real Madrid ones to try and keep it even.... I can see some Barca ones in there. Ronaldo has broken more records than Messi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I watched Ronaldo every week for years. More than any of you. I know exactly what he can do. Obviously not as good as Messi in that particular case but Ronaldo can play anywhere and be ridiculously effective. He could not play CM, at least not to a world class level whereas Messi could and I think as he gets older that's where he will drop and play more often Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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