Mick Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Wow, speechless. Directed at the tiresome 'defending your fellow countryman' post. You appear to be looking through rose tinted glasses, what do you base your opinion of Pele on? You've claimed that he was further ahead of other players than Messi is now (unless I've read it wrong), based on what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Based on the fact that he outperformed the best from Europe and South America time after time during a 12 year spell. The fact that he beat teams singlehandedly scoring goals against the best european club teams at the time and outplaying the best defenders in the World at the time. Pele was a level ahead of everyone back then and there was no doubt about it. Today there might be no doubt about Messi being the best but until a year ago CRonaldo was touted as someone who was as good as Messi. But yeah, those rose tinted glasses. Well done mate, play that card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 So because there wasn't a player at that time who was as good Pele, Pele must be better than Messi? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Today there might be no doubt about Messi being the best but until a year ago CRonaldo was touted as someone who was as good as Messi. The only people that thought that was the people that based the best player on goals. The only way CR compares to Messi is goals the rest of his game isn't close to Messi and hasn't been for a very long time. Even the year CR won the Balon D'or the last 6 months of that year Messi was better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 No obviously not what I mean. I'm going by natural talent. I explained it over 1000s posts again, but that's definitely not what I meant. I mean that Pele maximised the ability at the time. Obviously if you put Pele of back then into a game today he wouldn't be close to what Messi is, however, if he was given the same circumstances as Messi I think he would develop into a better player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Today there might be no doubt about Messi being the best but until a year ago CRonaldo was touted as someone who was as good as Messi. The only people that thought that was the people that based the best player on goals. The only way CR compares to Messi is goals the rest of his game isn't close to Messi and hasn't been for a very long time. Even the year CR won the Balon D'or the last 6 months of that year Messi was better. No doubt, for me Messi has been a level ahead of anyone. But is anyone of today in the same level as Eusebio, Di Stefano, Garrincha, George Best (apart from Messi) ? I wouldn't think so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Comparing players is a zero sum game really, not much point quibbling over the nitty gritty Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Probably not but because Pele had more competition does that make him better ? His 3 world cups, countless goals, destroying the best teams in Europe may make him better but having more competition? Not for me at the end of the day Messi is a ridiculous player who would be the best player in almost any generation or at least be in the discussion in any generation. I can't compare eras anyway there's too many different permutations to consider and i consider it flawed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Probably not but because Pele had more competition does that make him better ? His 3 world cups, countless goals, destroying the best teams in Europe may make him better but having more competition? Not for me at the end of the day Messi is a ridiculous player who would be the best player in almost any generation or at least be in the discussion in any generation. I can't compare eras anyway there's too many different permutations to consider and i consider it flawed. Dont mean HAVING MORE COMPETITION, what I mean is that the level difference between Pele and his competition were in my opinion further than Messi and his competition. Anyways Comparing players is a zero sum game really, not much point quibbling over the nitty gritty Unfortunately this is true, its still fun to discuss this topic though because everyone has such a different opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 Oh ok my bad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 And Pele used to get the living shit kick out of him, ridiculously so in fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 '66 World Cup is the evidence of that. The guy was basically raped on the field for 2 games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 We still would have won Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 '66 World Cup is the evidence of that. The guy was basically raped on the field for 2 games. Aye, i do wonder sometimes how good he would be now with the protection this is for forwards (tackles from behind, hacks etc). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted December 2, 2012 Share Posted December 2, 2012 if he was given the same circumstances as Messi I think he would develop into a better player. I get what you're saying here but think about that in context, Messi is about to equal or better a 30+year goalscoring record in Europe... Just how much better than Messi do you actually think an individual could get? It may be that another player could influence games more than he does such as Xavi but I just can't see how anyone would possibly be able to score the same amount of goals and provide the same number assists to teammates he does. I just can't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Yet no one pressed the player in possession, the changes to the offside rule and not to mention the average player is much fitter and tactically better too. Yes players were allowed to kick at will but the mere fact that average teams press as a team more effectively now than the best teams did then, the fact the offside rule killed some art of defending so much so that the Libero doesn't exist anymore among other things. You could argue it both ways even Sacchi's Milan in the 90s would not be as successful now because of the advances in certain things. I can't honestly say that football in 60s 70s and 80s was harder for players to succeed or harder now.... It was easier in different ways and it was also harder in different ways and we adapt with time and change to adapt to the changes of the game anything else is pure history revisionism. This is an interesting argument. To be honest, I think there's a reason why most huge goalscoring records at club or international level (like Müller's) are 30+ years old. Defending wasn't tactically as good as it is today, and fitness didn't play such a huge part. I won't enter the debate whether Messi is better than Pelé, since I'm ill-equipped to compare both players as I've only seen Pelé in old footage. But I do think that the defensive side of the game has advanced by leaps and bounds since the 1950s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Just come across this.... Lionel Messi's record since the start of 2009/10 season at Barca: 201 goals, 72 assists in 189 official games (170 Starts) Piss off man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Just come across this.... Lionel Messi's record since the start of 2009/10 season at Barca: 201 goals, 72 assists in 189 official games (170 Starts) p*ss off man All the FF points one could get with this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Just come across this.... Lionel Messi's record since the start of 2009/10 season at Barca: 201 goals, 72 assists in 189 official games (170 Starts) p*ss off man All the FF points one could get with this I'd probably have as captain of my fantasy football team. (Messi, that is) [/neesy] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fugazi Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 The thing you have to ask yourself about Pele is just how well or bad would he fair in today's football? For me he would be an even better player and would fair even better. The better protection from refs, the quicker game, the tactical advances, the better players etc. would have all enabled Pele to up his own game and indeed star more. Messi on the other hand due to his slight frame might have struggled to shine the way he does today. Defenders were uncompromising and tough. That said, lesser players with lesser abilities shone despite slight frames, but I'm certain Messi would not dominate the way he does today back in Pele's era while Pele for me would dominate in any era. I'm not comparing the two as to who is the best by the way, for me I can only say Messi because I've seen a hell of a lot more of him than I have of Pele but even a blind man could tell Pele was simply the best until Messi come along to compete for his crown if you like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Pure conjecture either way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 I doubt anyone between 1-30 years could argue he's not the best within that time. We all have favourites and preferences, but discounting the artistry in his play, his stats are nothing like what we've seen before. Our leagues all-time goalscorer averaged about 1 in 2 and is a footballing legend. Messi scored more hatricks in a season than Shearer did in his career and averages almost 2 in 1 going back almost 4 seasons or something. He is truly on his own scale for what I've even known as brilliant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Imagine how many he'd get in the Eredivisie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Village Idiot Posted December 3, 2012 Share Posted December 3, 2012 Imagine how many he'd get in the Eredivisie. Pretty sure somebody asked the same question 2-3 years ago in this place, - after he finished with 34 - and somebody said "50" like it was some silly number... which is the number that he scored last year Wish I had the patience to find those quotes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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