Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Cronky]

He's fucking atrocious and in no way a scapegoat.

 

Well, it's possible to be both. A scapegoat is just someone who takes the rap for other people's mistakes. Overall, Taylor isn't any better and Colo has his weak points. But if Williamson is involved in any way when a goal goes in, he takes the blame. The game on Wednesday was a perfect illustration of that.

[Wullie]

I don't majorly disagree with any of that tbh - although, I didn't hear a peep about this when he played at West Brom (a) last season etc (hence the scapegoating, now we're doing poorly*) - and that's why he ought to be fourth choice.

 

Really?

 

West Brom was the game when he ran into Krul and Long tapped in from a yard.

[Jack Flash]

He's an easy target but he's had plenty of good games for us in his time here. Most of the criticism is OTT all things considered.

[Dave]

I like how nobody seems to have noticed the switch.

[Ikon]

I like how nobody seems to have noticed the switch.

 

Messi Willo threads you mean? Im confused, been awake since midnight

[ATB]

He's an easy target but he's had plenty of good games for us in his time here. Most of the criticism is OTT all things considered.

[Mole_Toonfan]

He's an easy target but he's had plenty of good games for us in his time here. Most of the criticism is OTT all things considered.

 

About sums it up, i don't blame him anyway he was bought as cover in the championship for crying out load.

[Dave]

I like how nobody seems to have noticed the switch.

 

Messi Willo threads you mean? Im confused, been awake since midnight

 

I've put it back now.

[Ikon]

That face 

[Fugazi]

50 league goals in 37 games last season, 21 in 14 this season. How much better can he get?

[Mick]

I’ve always shied away from calling him (Messi, not Williamson) the best ever, I don’t see how it can be argued against now.  He’s the best footballer that I’ve ever seen and I was lucky enough to see Pele on a shitty TV when I was a kid.

[Flip]

You DON'T see how it had can be argued against? I respect those that believe that Messi is the best ever, but there are millions of reasons why to argue against. Not saying he ISN'T even if I believe he isn't, I'm just saying there are many arguments to why people wouldn't think of Messi as the best ever.

 

What has he ever achieved outside of Barcelona? That is one argument, not talking clublevel here, why move if you are winning everything, but I'm talking with Argentina? How come he can't ever impose his qualities when it comes down to it? Friendlys sure, scoring three against a Olympic Brazilian side isn't really anything to brag about.

 

My reasons for preferring Pele over Messi is that both were quality players, but what makes Pele a player above is that he made everyone around him better. Messi just doesn't do that which you can see with the national side, if anything the players in Barcelona makes him better.

 

I do respect everyones opinions and I do see why many rate Messi as the best ever, but at the moment Pele IMO still is, but who knows in 10 years?

[Tiresias]

Messi's problem is always going to be the players around him, people will doubt when he's lining up with Iniesta and Xavi, with those in the team I'd probably score  a few, but Messi still scores ludicrous goals day in day out, it's not like he's anything approaching a poacher anyway so that criticism doesn't make sense. Questioning the league however does stick, he's definitely proven himself in the champions league though so that helps, but it would be nice to see him in another league see if he can replicate (I think he would).

 

International form? Well until recently he didn't have the team built around him, and the rest of the squad isn't really up to that standard at all, maybe he fails to raise them, he doesn't seem much of a leader, but I always thought he put in respectable shifts whenever I've seen him and has been a little unfortunate not to score more. Like Ronaldo in portugal, just has to do too much. People say Maradonna did brilliantly with an inferior team with Napoli, and that's going to hurt Messi.

 

Barcalona are built to maximise Messi's strengths, in any other system he would not be scoring these record breaking number of goals, but that to me does not take away from the fact that watching him, it's impossible to argue he's not the best imo. Just look at him move, and look at the goals he scores, he is the best finisher in the world, and also the best at beating defenders, and brilliant at setting up goals too. He's magnificent.

[Optimistic Nut]

Tbh, Champions League for me is the modern day international football. He's the greatest imo.

[tmonkey]

Needs a standout CL or World Cup tournament, from start to finish (with the finish part being more important) to put the nail in the coffin in terms of being the greatest ever. Still hasn't had that imo, irrespective of games where he scores 3/4/5 or the total number of goals scored.

[Taylor Swift]

A standout CL? You must be joking.

[tmonkey]

A standout CL? You must be joking.

 

He has frequently been disappointing in the latter stages, particularly against teams that are strong defensively - similar to his performances for Argentina in the major tournaments to date.

[Wullie]

That's outrageous.

 

That performance against Madrid in the semi then Man United in the final doesn't count?

[Neil]

A standout CL? You must be joking.

 

He has frequently been disappointing in the latter stages, particularly against teams that are strong defensively - similar to his performances for Argentina in the major tournaments to date.

 

You've had a right mare here mate.

[Beren]

You DON'T see how it had can be argued against? I respect those that believe that Messi is the best ever, but there are millions of reasons why to argue against. Not saying he ISN'T even if I believe he isn't, I'm just saying there are many arguments to why people wouldn't think of Messi as the best ever.

 

What has he ever achieved outside of Barcelona? That is one argument, not talking clublevel here, why move if you are winning everything, but I'm talking with Argentina? How come he can't ever impose his qualities when it comes down to it? Friendlys sure, scoring three against a Olympic Brazilian side isn't really anything to brag about.

 

My reasons for preferring Pele over Messi is that both were quality players, but what makes Pele a player above is that he made everyone around him better. Messi just doesn't do that which you can see with the national side, if anything the players in Barcelona makes him better.

 

I do respect everyones opinions and I do see why many rate Messi as the best ever, but at the moment Pele IMO still is, but who knows in 10 years?

 

I think this is a pretty balanced post. I don't think it's an open and shut case, certainly! I don't think it ever could be when you're comparing across generations/teams/eras/rules. A silly amount of variables. Probably wise to wait until his career is over, anyway.

[Taylor Swift]

Scored in two finals, practically winning them the title one year with his outrageous performance in the semis and final and he hasn't had a standout CL.

 

Someone post the Ari GTFO gif.

[tmonkey]

That's outrageous.

 

That performance against Madrid in the semi then Man United in the final doesn't count?

 

Anonymous first half, scored a goal that was entirely about poor keeping by a keeper on the verge of retirement. Hardly a performance worthy of being labelled the greatest player ever. Same with the CL final against ManU a few years prior to 2011, scored a header but very quiet otherwise.

 

Messi has also been p*ss poor against Inter and Chelsea in previous seasons, i.e. when up against strong defensive teams, hence why commentators were referencing his lack of goals against English sides prior to the Arsenal game (where he ran riot). And like Arsenal,  Madrid are not one of those "strong defensive teams", even under Mourinho (they just end up fouling Messi at every opportunity), though they look to be getting there slowly (i.e. they're looking more like a "team" than a collection of individuals as in previous years). I realise this sounds like I'm picking and choosing who I consider to be "eligible" as a good team, but take Messi out of the equation and I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all.

 

FWIW I can only think of a young Ronaldo (Brazilian) being on a par with Messi, Maradona being a more gifted/complete footballer (less effective though), and possibly Zidane being a better "big game" playmaker, in terms of players from my lifetime, hence why for me I'd want to see Messi have one dominant CL campaign to be the clear "best player".

[Guest neesy111]

[Wullie]

So he doesn't just have to have a dominant campaign, which he clearly has by anyone's standards, but he has to have it against "strong defensive teams"? Maybe they should just get you to do the draw in future.

[Mole_Toonfan]

That's outrageous.

 

That performance against Madrid in the semi then Man United in the final doesn't count?

 

Anonymous first half, scored a goal that was entirely about poor keeping by a keeper on the verge of retirement. Hardly a performance worthy of being labelled the greatest player ever. Same with the CL final against ManU a few years prior to 2011, scored a header but very quiet otherwise.

 

Messi has also been p*ss poor against Inter and Chelsea in previous seasons, i.e. when up against strong defensive teams, hence why commentators were referencing his lack of goals against English sides prior to the Arsenal game (where he ran riot). And like Arsenal,  Madrid are not one of those "strong defensive teams", even under Mourinho (they just end up fouling Messi at every opportunity), though they look to be getting there slowly (i.e. they're looking more like a "team" than a collection of individuals as in previous years). I realise this sounds like I'm picking and choosing who I consider to be "eligible" as a good team, but take Messi out of the equation and I don't think I'm being unreasonable at all.

 

FWIW I can only think of a young Ronaldo (Brazilian) being on a par with Messi, Maradona being a more gifted/complete footballer (less effective though), and possibly Zidane being a better "big game" playmaker, in terms of players from my lifetime, hence why for me I'd want to see Messi have one dominant CL campaign to be the clear "best player".

 

pls go.