Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Flip]

Unprecedented in his excellence now.

 

Sure we've seen players like Maradona, Pelé and Ronaldo be far ahead of their time and dominate the game, but Messi has added the most insane part of his game to that dominance. His goalscoring is far, far beyond those players, even Ronaldo who you'd argue had goalscoring as his main asset. And goalscoring is the most vital asset, it wins him games and titles, on an individual level but also in terms of Barcelona, probably the best team ever on club level. His goalscoring is the crown of that team, what makes them click.

 

 

 

You taking the piss?

[AlanSkÃrare]

Unprecedented in his excellence now.

 

Sure we've seen players like Maradona, Pelé and Ronaldo be far ahead of their time and dominate the game, but Messi has added the most insane part of his game to that dominance. His goalscoring is far, far beyond those players, even Ronaldo who you'd argue had goalscoring as his main asset. And goalscoring is the most vital asset, it wins him games and titles, on an individual level but also in terms of Barcelona, probably the best team ever on club level. His goalscoring is the crown of that team, what makes them click.

 

 

 

You taking the p*ss?

 

How so? The consistency in his goalscoring is far beyond them. Obviously not Pelé, but he never played in Europe.

[Flip]

Unprecedented in his excellence now.

 

Sure we've seen players like Maradona, Pelé and Ronaldo be far ahead of their time and dominate the game, but Messi has added the most insane part of his game to that dominance. His goalscoring is far, far beyond those players, even Ronaldo who you'd argue had goalscoring as his main asset. And goalscoring is the most vital asset, it wins him games and titles, on an individual level but also in terms of Barcelona, probably the best team ever on club level. His goalscoring is the crown of that team, what makes them click.

 

 

 

You taking the p*ss?

 

How so? The consistency in his goalscoring is far beyond them. Obviously not Pelé, but he never played in Europe.

 

Well you did mention Pele there. I just need to clarify once again that South American football back then had better standards than European football. Pele's Santos went in 59' to Europe and played I think 15 friendlies, (these were of course not REAL friendlies they were competitive games and that's why his friendlies record always comes to consideration when talking about his goalscoring records). Pele and Santos played Inter de Milan twice in the space of three weeks. Inter which the year after would go on to become one of the best teams in Italian history and he scored SIX goals against them in two games. Losing the first 3-2 and then winning the second 7-1 and he took the complete piss of Inter. And just to show how good South American football was back then, Santos lost 5-3 to Real Madrid which was the best team in Europe at the moment in 59' but lost 6-2 to Colo Colo. In one month of friendlies Pele went on to score 25 goals playing teams like Inter, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia all teams who were successful back then, as well as Real Betis who would have its best finish ever in spanish football in 1963 as well as Hamburg who would reach the semi-finals in 1961' in the Champions League.

 

People need to get a perspective of what Pele really was, he was a King amongst men. And I do respect people rating Messi over, however saying that his goalscoring was beyond any of them is for me a ridiculous statement. At the end of his career we can judge him. I mean Di Stefano himself didn't have a much worse goalscoring record than Messi and he won 5 straight Champions Leagues too.

 

What Messi, Maradona, Pele and Garrincha all have in their favour though is that they won things and were dominant in the way they did it. Garrincha and Maradona each won one world cup completely on their own. Pele and Messi basically won everything (Messi probably will, will probably dominate the World Cup in Brazil and shut my mouth )

[AlanSkÃrare]

Unprecedented in his excellence now.

 

Sure we've seen players like Maradona, Pelé and Ronaldo be far ahead of their time and dominate the game, but Messi has added the most insane part of his game to that dominance. His goalscoring is far, far beyond those players, even Ronaldo who you'd argue had goalscoring as his main asset. And goalscoring is the most vital asset, it wins him games and titles, on an individual level but also in terms of Barcelona, probably the best team ever on club level. His goalscoring is the crown of that team, what makes them click.

 

 

 

You taking the p*ss?

 

How so? The consistency in his goalscoring is far beyond them. Obviously not Pelé, but he never played in Europe.

 

Well you did mention Pele there. I just need to clarify once again that South American football back then had better standards than European football. Pele's Santos went in 59' to Europe and played I think 15 friendlies, (these were of course not REAL friendlies they were competitive games and that's why his friendlies record always comes to consideration when talking about his goalscoring records). Pele and Santos played Inter de Milan twice in the space of three weeks. Inter which the year after would go on to become one of the best teams in Italian history and he scored SIX goals against them in two games. Losing the first 3-2 and then winning the second 7-1 and he took the complete p*ss of Inter. And just to show how good South American football was back then, Santos lost 5-3 to Real Madrid which was the best team in Europe at the moment in 59' but lost 6-2 to Colo Colo. In one month of friendlies Pele went on to score 25 goals playing teams like Inter, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia all teams who were successful back then, as well as Real Betis who would have its best finish ever in spanish football in 1963 as well as Hamburg who would reach the semi-finals in 1961' in the Champions League.

 

People need to get a perspective of what Pele really was, he was a King amongst men. And I do respect people rating Messi over, however saying that his goalscoring was beyond any of them is for me a ridiculous statement. At the end of his career we can judge him. I mean Di Stefano himself didn't have a much worse goalscoring record than Messi and he won 5 straight Champions Leagues too.

 

What Messi, Maradona, Pele and Garrincha all have in their favour though is that they won things and were dominant in the way they did it. Garrincha and Maradona each won one world cup completely on their own. Pele and Messi basically won everything (Messi probably will, will probably dominate the World Cup in Brazil and shut my mouth )

 

Fair enough, I stand corrected on that point. However in todays climate and what the sport represents today I still don't find their goalscoring comparable.

[Flip]

 

Aye extremely hard to compare in anycase. Football has developed so much, which is why there will always be a discussion about it. What is refreshing with Messi is that no matter how good, players we have had no one has ever come into consideration in the same bracket with Pele and Maradona which shows just how good Messi really is. Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Zidane, Henry all these guys were great footballers, Messi however is the level above. A level not seen for 3-4 decades.

[Taylor Swift]

I have three points to make:

 

Pele scored against those teams in friendlies. The key is that they were friendlies.

 

Football is a much more difficult game nowadays. Whatever you say, you look at the goal scoring of each league and it is way lower than it was in the 60s. For whatever reason, it is harder to score a goal now today than it was before. So a goal today matters more than it did before. You talk about shit pitches, about poor refereeing, rough play, whatever you want to talk about, in the end, more goals were scored on average then than now. Just basic statistics, bro.

 

The population of footballers these days is also vastly greater than before. Pele may be a King amongst men but he was a King in a small village. Messi is the King of the world.

[Fenham Mag]

Question:

 

Will he catch up his club appearances with club goals so that he has a 1:1 ratio or greater?

 

Pretty hard of course and no chance he could sustain that record as he ages but it would be amazing if he got to that point.

 

Even if he got to that ratio in league goals it would be amazing and another unbelievable Messi Stat.

[Unbelievable]

http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=747526

 

What a pointless thread. Can the greatest ever hack it in the Premier League

 

 

 

That thread is absolutely unreal. One bloke in particular making a complete arse of himself:

 

Ronaldo tortured defenders for fun even when he was being marked by the likes of Robert Huth on a freezing cold night in Stoke playing alongside the likes of Gabriel Obertan, Alan Smith & David Bellion.

 

Its a million miles away from knocking them in by the bucketload against a team of spanish waiters on a beautiful sunday evening in 19 degree temperatures with xavi, iniesta, villa, fabregas, alves & co in your corner.

 

Read more: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=747526&page=3#ixzz2EeTyRLZ1

 

And yes, he means it too..

[Mole_Toonfan]

Question:

 

Will he catch up his club appearances with club goals so that he has a 1:1 ratio or greater?

 

Pretty hard of course and no chance he could sustain that record as he ages but it would be amazing if he got to that point.

 

Even if he got to that ratio in league goals it would be amazing and another unbelievable Messi Stat.

 

He's averaging more than a goal a game this season so i think eventually he will have more goals than appearances

 

But i see him tailing off at end of his career to be something slightly lower but still f*cking ridiculous.

 

What a freak.

[Flip]

I have three points to make:

 

Pele scored against those teams in friendlies. The key is that they were friendlies.

 

Football is a much more difficult game nowadays. Whatever you say, you look at the goal scoring of each league and it is way lower than it was in the 60s. For whatever reason, it is harder to score a goal now today than it was before. So a goal today matters more than it did before. You talk about s*** pitches, about poor refereeing, rough play, whatever you want to talk about, in the end, more goals were scored on average then than now. Just basic statistics, bro.

 

The population of footballers these days is also vastly greater than before. Pele may be a King amongst men but he was a King in a small village. Messi is the King of the world.

 

Look, I see where you're coming from, but I hope you understand that these 'friendlies' weren't friendlies like they are today. You know that right? Teams played for money and honour back then, especially since there was a tense rivalry between the European and South American clubs. Those were extremely important and teams really wanted to win. It's not like the friendlies today where you put half a team on and there is no touching of the opposition to prevent injuries.

 

Also you do realize that Real Madrid of last season is the 7th most effective goalscoring team of all times in Spanish football? Behind 4 Athletic Bilbao teams who scored a boatload in the 30's? Not that it says anything, but Barcelona and Real Madrid of last season are the two teams who have scored the most ever in Spanish football, so how does that translate into your argument that you scored more back then? In general maybe but both Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi have been part in the most scoring Spanish sides ever.

 

Once again, I'm a big fan of Messi and the person who isn't doesn't really appreciate football or is a Madrid fan.

 

Cruyff makes an excellent point when he says:

 

“What everyone should be especially happy about is that every era has its own heroes. Why would one be less than the other? Pele was a hero in his time, I was in my period and Messi’s time is now. He is a joy to behold.”

 

Also didn't know that Pele scored a hattrick against Newcastle back in '72.

 

[Mole_Toonfan]

Honestly when ever i have discussed this in the past i have always preferred to do that the way Cruyff does it....

 

Best of an era is best, we can discuss until we are blue in the face but fact is we can't prove that Messi would be better back in the 50s and we can't prove Pele would be as good now either.

 

I always liked the best of the era because every era is different, football has even changed from 10 years ago and it will change again in 10 years time it's impossible to compare.

 

But then again there is no fun in that and it's probably why people persist with the best ever discussion.

[Flip]

 

That last sentence is the nail in the coffin. I mean the only reason why this is discussed is because its fun.

[Ishmael]

Messi wouldn't have mountains of drugs at his disposal in the 50s, ergo Pele is better.

[Tooj]

Totally agree with what Felipao is saying about the general ignorance shown towards the Brazilian league back in Pele's day.

[mrmojorisin75]

Well you did mention Pele there. I just need to clarify once again that South American football back then had better standards than European football. Pele's Santos went in 59' to Europe and played I think 15 friendlies, (these were of course not REAL friendlies they were competitive games and that's why his friendlies record always comes to consideration when talking about his goalscoring records). Pele and Santos played Inter de Milan twice in the space of three weeks. Inter which the year after would go on to become one of the best teams in Italian history and he scored SIX goals against them in two games. Losing the first 3-2 and then winning the second 7-1 and he took the complete piss of Inter. And just to show how good South American football was back then, Santos lost 5-3 to Real Madrid which was the best team in Europe at the moment in 59' but lost 6-2 to Colo Colo. In one month of friendlies Pele went on to score 25 goals playing teams like Inter, Real Madrid, Barcelona and Valencia all teams who were successful back then, as well as Real Betis who would have its best finish ever in spanish football in 1963 as well as Hamburg who would reach the semi-finals in 1961' in the Champions League.

 

realise what i'm about to do here but wouldn't the counter argument to this be that even though "competitive" as you state it (and i have no reason to doubt that you're correct) the games you refer to are let's say out of the ordinary and pele/santos would have been coming into these games in many ways an unknown quantity to europe so to pick a handful (?) of games where he belted them in against some top class european teams isn't really the same as playing in that league and having to deal with teams who have worked on specifically nullifying your game week in week out

 

messi is playing in europe when it is unquestionably the biggest, brightest and best that world football has even been, the rest of the football world is a wasteland in comparison...week in week out every game he plays is shown to millions on TV and his every move scrutinised and watched by anyone who cares to, including opposition players and coaches

 

in that climate his goalscoring and all round ability haven't waned they've improved to the point where he just broke a 40 year old goalscoring record...he's also utterly dominated everything that comes his way in the CL at a time when it is far and away the most important football tournament on the planet...if he's not already all time CL scorer he's every close

 

i'm not saying pele couldn't have achieved the same as messi or anything like that, i'm just saying that you have to put what messi has done/is doing into perspective...there is simply no way that pele's era was as consistently competitive as messi's is, i just don't see how you can argue they're comparable...better pitches, lighter balls, increased fitness and tactical awareness throughout the game etc. haven't made it easier for messi to score goals whatever anyone might think....look around elsewhere, if that was the case there would be a lot more consistent 30+ goal a season strikers but there simply aren't...some manage it for a while but maintaining it takes it toll and/or they get worked out and special attention from the opposition which slows them down

 

not so messi

 

it will more than likely be another 40 years before we see anything like this again, if we get that lucky

[Flip]

Pele and his Santos were known throughout the world. They played in the middle east, they played in north america, all over Europe, Africa. Sure you didn't have the amount of scouts back then but especially Real Madrid attempted to sign him time after time so I'm pretty sure team knew him and Santos very well.

 

And while I understand your post and I might agree on the fact that he didn't play them week in week out, you need to understand the fact that Pele was the first superstar of football. Teams tried to nullify him in a way far superior to the way they do with Messi today. Pele was, and I bet the older posters on here or other ones who have watched endless amounts of footballs history will agree with me, raped against every single team he played.  There was no other way to stop him, there were no fair methods to stop Pele and that's why he was so great. Messi never has and never will, thanks to a large part of what you say TV and money. He is protected in a manner Pele never was. Pele played in an era where substitutions weren't allowed he played in an era that was much tougher to succeed.

 

Once again I think like Mole was on about, in the end its all about era, because for the same amount of reasons you find the reason to put Messi over Pele, someone will find the reasons to put Maradona or Pele over Messi. How would Messi have coped with todays football had he not gotten the hormones to grow? How would Pele have coped in a more tactical era of football? I mean there are so many things to take into considerations. Messi is the player of his era no doubt, I'm just trying to prove that no matter how many arguments are put forth of him being the best ever the same can be made both from Maradona's perspective or Pele's. In the end it's a topic which is defined by subjectivity since everyone has their own opinions.

[Nobody]

I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi.

[Flip]

I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi.

 

We really wouldn't. So many good footballers were better than CRonaldo.

[AlanSkÃrare]

I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi.

 

I think we probably would. b****** of a time to be that good. Look at his record at Real, look at his last seasons with Manchester United. He's up there. He scored 60 goals last season ffs.

[Flip]

I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi.

 

I think we probably would. b****** of a time to be that good. Look at his record at Real, look at his last season with Manchester United. He's up there.

 

 

He's up there amongst the very best? Please enlighten me. Scoring tons of goals against lesser teams and disappearing in big games doesn't really help his cause tbh.

[Mole_Toonfan]

I think CR will be remembered in similar terms to the likes of Eusebio or maybe Puskas ( that probably is a bit of a stretch) because of the obscene amount of goals they scored.

 

But like Eusebio and Puskas... CR doesn't have the all round game that Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Messi, Di Stefano etc etc had/has.

[AlanSkÃrare]

I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi.

 

I think we probably would. b****** of a time to be that good. Look at his record at Real, look at his last season with Manchester United. He's up there.

 

 

He's up there amongst the very best? Please enlighten me. Scoring tons of goals against lesser teams and disappearing in big games doesn't really help his cause tbh.

 

 

The part about him disappearing in big games isn't true, not anymore. The most recent example was his performance against Barcelona earlier this year. His performances at the Euro's would also suggest the contrary.

 

His goalscoring against lesser sides is on par with Messi's as far as I'm concerned. The difference being Messi adding to his tally against Champions League teams a bit more.

[Cronky]

I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi.

 

I think we probably would. b****** of a time to be that good. Look at his record at Real, look at his last season with Manchester United. He's up there.

 

 

He's up there amongst the very best? Please enlighten me. Scoring tons of goals against lesser teams and disappearing in big games doesn't really help his cause tbh.

 

Agreed. If he was a cricketer, he'd be called a flat-track bully.

[Fugazi]

http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=747526

 

What a pointless thread. Can the greatest ever hack it in the Premier League

 

 

 

That thread is absolutely unreal. One bloke in particular making a complete arse of himself:

 

Ronaldo tortured defenders for fun even when he was being marked by the likes of Robert Huth on a freezing cold night in Stoke playing alongside the likes of Gabriel Obertan, Alan Smith & David Bellion.

 

Its a million miles away from knocking them in by the bucketload against a team of spanish waiters on a beautiful sunday evening in 19 degree temperatures with xavi, iniesta, villa, fabregas, alves & co in your corner.

 

Read more: http://www.readytogo.net/smb/showthread.php?t=747526&page=3#ixzz2EeTyRLZ1

 

And yes, he means it too..

 

It's like Messi-Cliche Bingo - Too small/ball greedy/freezing night in Stoke...

[Mole_Toonfan]

I don't necessarily agree Ronaldo is a big match flop.... scored in 7 straight clasico's or something like that and scored in both CL semi legs last year.

 

The thing that separates CR and any great you wan't to talk about is that outside goalscoring basically all of them (especially Messi) is that you can stop them from scoring but you can't stop them from having an impact.

 

Talk about Pele, Maradona, Cruyff or who ever if they didn't score they would be playmaking and just all round pitch generals.

 

Stop CR from scoring and he's pretty quiet his all round game is not up to level of these greats.

 

Hell there's people in the current game that have better all round game than CR but he makes up for it by scoring 60 goals in a year .