Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Tooj]

I remember Roberto Carlos was subject to the same hoo-ha about his free kicks, for the same reason as Ronaldo - they looked really good when they came off. He'd hump them into the wall most of the time. For a while early in his career he seemed to score a few, such as at Inter, but especially at Real Madrid I remember it being a case of commentators building him up while he did his rather camp run-up, then him pounding it into some poor sap's chest while Zidane stood and scowled.

 

Zola is where it's at for free kicks- there was a period at Parma where he was in the habit of scoring about 30% of them. That is definitely true: I have a video from then and James Richardson says so.

 

Siniša Mihajlović is where it's at for Serie A free kick takers of the late 90s.

 

http://www.japanese-buddhism.com/images/roberto_baggio-Buddhist.jpg

 

[Disco]

I remember Roberto Carlos was subject to the same hoo-ha about his free kicks, for the same reason as Ronaldo - they looked really good when they came off. He'd hump them into the wall most of the time. For a while early in his career he seemed to score a few, such as at Inter, but especially at Real Madrid I remember it being a case of commentators building him up while he did his rather camp run-up, then him pounding it into some poor sap's chest while Zidane stood and scowled.

 

Zola is where it's at for free kicks- there was a period at Parma where he was in the habit of scoring about 30% of them. That is definitely true: I have a video from then and James Richardson says so.

 

Siniša Mihajlović is where it's at for Serie A free kick takers of the late 90s.

 

http://www.japanese-buddhism.com/images/roberto_baggio-Buddhist.jpg

 

 

Points lost for shit hair and lack of overt racism & befriending of warlords.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

I remember Roberto Carlos was subject to the same hoo-ha about his free kicks, for the same reason as Ronaldo - they looked really good when they came off. He'd hump them into the wall most of the time. For a while early in his career he seemed to score a few, such as at Inter, but especially at Real Madrid I remember it being a case of commentators building him up while he did his rather camp run-up, then him pounding it into some poor sap's chest while Zidane stood and scowled.

 

Zola is where it's at for free kicks- there was a period at Parma where he was in the habit of scoring about 30% of them. That is definitely true: I have a video from then and James Richardson says so.

 

Siniša Mihajlović is where it's at for Serie A free kick takers of the late 90s.

 

http://www.japanese-buddhism.com/images/roberto_baggio-Buddhist.jpg

 

 

Can't look at Baggio without thinking of;

 

http://www.scientificamerican.com/media/inline/blog/xfer/embiggens.jpg

 

That hair, man

[Flip]

Aye

 

Suarez is a great player like but f***ing hell, long way to go before he's in that bracket.

 

Suarez is the best player in the PL at the moment. Without him Liverpool would be in a relegation battle. I don't care how much of a cunt he is, but Suarez has been class this season and the game against us was only an example of how good he has been.

[Flip]

Juninho isn't even the best freekick taker in Brazlian history.

 

I think Roberto Dinamite scored like 117 career free-kicks and Zico was better than both in terms of free-kicks.

[Dr. Nguyen Van Falk]

Personally think Michu has been better than Suarez this season tbh.

[Guest palnese]

Juninho isn't even the best freekick taker in Brazlian history.

 

I think Roberto Dinamite scored like 117 career free-kicks and Zico was better than both in terms of free-kicks.

 

Dem compilations on youtube.

[Froggy]

Juninho isn't even the best freekick taker in Brazlian history.

 

I think Roberto Dinamite scored like 117 career free-kicks and Zico was better than both in terms of free-kicks.

 

Dem compilations on youtube.

 

I think the compilations on Juninho are far more impressive to be honest. The technique he uses in striking the ball and the swerve he generates is ridiciulous. I know who I prefer watching anyway but it's up for debate who was better.

[Hanshithispantz]

Aye

 

Suarez is a great player like but f***ing hell, long way to go before he's in that bracket.

 

Suarez is the best player in the PL at the moment. Without him Liverpool would be in a relegation battle. I don't care how much of a cunt he is, but Suarez has been class this season and the game against us was only an example of how good he has been.

I don't disagree, he needs to keep this up for a lot longer to be classed as better than Ibra though. There's a fair few players in the league more deserving of that kind of praise.

[Flip]

Personally think Michu has been better than Suarez this season tbh.

 

Possibly, in my opinion suarez just brings so much to the Liverpool side. Obviously he needs to keep it up, but i would take suarez over Ibra TODAY. Ibra obviously has had a much better career but I just think Suarez is so class the racist cunt

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Biggest tragedy of my young life when Baggio missed that penalty. Remember secretly listening to the Word Cup final in bed and thinking it was unfair that he was the fall guy.

[Guest tollemache]

Franco Baresi had to miss too 

[Tooj]

Biggest tragedy of my young life when Baggio missed that penalty. Remember secretly listening to the Word Cup final in bed and thinking it was unfair that he was the fall guy.

 

The way Sacchi went on afterwards was an utter disgrace. Especially as Baggio single handedly dragged them to the final himself and was nowhere near fit enough to play that match.

[Tooj]

For me it seems the name and aura of Pele count against him. Don't get me wrong his opinion counts for very little due to some of the absurd comments he makes and some of the products he has controversially endorsed. It seems that people will do anything to discredit the first real superstar of football. Let's not forgot that this is a man that once stopped a civil war, brought a game to a whole new nation in the United States, even after he retired it took Brazil 24 years to win a World Cup without him.

 

Look at his achievements as a 17 year old in the 1958 World Cup, has anybody ever scored a better goal in a World Cup Final than Pele did in 1958? Also why do people so easily dismiss the matches he played for Santos against European opposition? Santos at the time played matches against the best sides in Europe who were deemed the best around, yet Santos and Pele in particular didn't just win these games they quite frankly dominated against the very best teams in the world.

 

You rarely hear people say George Best, Di Stefano, Puskas Gerd Muller, Eusebio or Cruijff played against poor defences at the time to belittle their standing in the world of football so why is it acceptable to do this against Pele? Why do people often come out with the ignorance about the state the Brasilian league was in around the time of Pele? Back in Pele's era the Brasilian league was arguably the best in the world as most of their star players didn't play their trade abroad.

 

Their national team was dominant for the best part of a decade, so if the core of such a dominant squad didn't play abroad so why does this make the Brasilian league so poor in that era? I don't think they would've won the 1966 World Cup even if Pele was fit, as at that team it was very much a team in transition with the likes of Garrincha being on a downward spiral and players like Jairzinho not quite being ready at the time.

 

It seems the way people try to dismiss Pele's goalscoring achievement is that he scored the majority of his goals being put through on goal and only having tap-ins to score due to the opposition defences being so poor, never mind the fact he scored every variety of goal. Was it the poor defences that allowed him to score free-kicks or from 30 yards out so consistently?

 

Let's look at the 1970 World Cup, the tournament that guaranteed Pele a place as football's first footballing superstar. Of course part of this was due to the aura the 1970 Brasil team had, it being the first world cup that was televised in colour and made it more accessible to audiences etc. That Brasil team would've won that World Cup without Pele regardless as the team was that good and had some true footballing greats in there like Tostao, Carlos Alberto, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Gerson. Yet Pele stood head and shoulders above all of his team mates. This was a 29 year old Pele, was was past his peak as injuries had taken their toll and he was a completely different player to the Pele of his peak years of 5 years earlier before he had lost that explosiveness due to the injuries that he had sustained from brutal defending. His game was now about being a true playmaker (something which I could see Messi doing when he has lost some of his pace), bringing others into play with his fantastic vision, being the focal point of all of the attacking play of the team. Yet he still managed to put in one of the most iconic performances of any player in the history of the World Cup despite being past his best, yet his greatness enabled him to do this and he was that intelligent on the pitch he was enable to change his game.

 

Excluding all of the above based on his pure footballing talent, he is without a doubt the most complete player to have ever graced a football pitch which is why I rate him as the greatest player of all time. He wasn't just one footed like Maradona or Messi, he was equally adept with his left as he was with his right. Despite only being 5 foot 8 he had a great leap and scored many headers against far more physical or taller opposition. He had explosive pace and could run the 100m in 11 seconds. He was the greatest exponent of the bicycle kick there has ever been. He created many of the tricks people use today. He was often seen performing the "seal" dribble as a way of getting past his opponents, I've also never witnessed anybody hit the ball off an opposition player as a way of getting past them as he knew what trajectory the ball would go when going off them. (He also done this off referees). He had amazing dribbling speed and fantastic ball control, his movement of course was amazing. He inspired players around him and made them better players. His vision and footballing intelligence was world class which allowed him to turn into a playmaker late on in his career after he had lost some of that explosive pace. At times he often played in different positions on the pitch as he was good enough to do so and even once saved a penalty for Santos.

 

People also often say he wouldn't be as good in the modern game due to how technology has now been deployed and the enhancements the game has seen since then. Well if Pele was that good without all of the modern day nutrition and fitness regimes, having to use the old style balls, boots etc, how could he be in today's game with all of those advancements on this side?

 

Lastly some people might say he's not the greatest of all time but it simply cannot be argued that he is the most complete footballer to have ever played the game.

[mrmojorisin75]

People also often say he wouldn't be as good in the modern game due to how technology has now been deployed and the enhancements the game has seen since then. Well if Pele was that good without all of the modern day nutrition and fitness regimes, having to use the old style balls, boots etc, how could he be in today's game with all of those advancements on this side?

 

Lastly some people might say he's not the greatest of all time but it simply cannot be argued that he is the most complete footballer to have ever played the game.

 

the modern game things the main element in messi's favour when talking about just how good he is but i agree that no-one should really be looking to take anything away from pele, it's madness

 

the era's point was the best one made in this thread really

[Beren]

2J.

[colinmk]

Aye good points there 2J, well said. I always twitch a bit when I see Messi called one footed though, his right is no bad too. 

[Tooj]

Aye good points there 2J, well said. I always twitch a bit when I see Messi called one footed though, his right is no bad too. 

 

He doesn't use it as much as somebody like Pele did. Even Ronaldo in his day had a fantastic left foot. So often he would drop the shoulder and put the ball on his left foot and fire it in from the edge of the box.

[Tooj]

Can I just say that discussions like this and the ones that Beren has created around what we think of certain players are far more interesting to me personally rather than analysing Pardew's body language when he's walking down the tunnel after a match.

[Tooj]

If he keeps scoring over 45 goals a season that might help too like.

 

Over 45 ffs.

[Nobody]

Can I just say that discussions like this and the ones that Beren has created around what we think of certain players are far more interesting to me personally rather than analysing Pardew's body language when he's walking down the tunnel after a match.

Except that I've never seen Pele and barely nowt of Maradona so I can't join in the debate.

[colinmk]

Aye good points there 2J, well said. I always twitch a bit when I see Messi called one footed though, his right is no bad too. 

 

He doesn't use it as much as somebody like Pele did. Even Ronaldo in his day had a fantastic left foot. So often he would drop the shoulder and put the ball on his left foot and fire it in from the edge of the box.

 

Maybe not as much as them, he certainly doesn't tend to shoot from long range with his right but when he is close dribbling and passing he seems totally comfortable on his right. His screamers are nearly always on his left though aye. Could do with seeing more of Pele tbh, any docs or anything you would recommend?

[Tooj]

Can I just say that discussions like this and the ones that Beren has created around what we think of certain players are far more interesting to me personally rather than analysing Pardew's body language when he's walking down the tunnel after a match.

Except that I've never seen Pele and barely nowt of Maradona so I can't join in the debate.

 

You've always got Zlatan Muslimovic to fall back on.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

For me it seems the name and aura of Pele count against him. Don't get me wrong his opinion counts for very little due to some of the absurd comments he makes and some of the products he has controversially endorsed. It seems that people will do anything to discredit the first real superstar of football. Let's not forgot that this is a man that once stopped a civil war, brought a game to a whole new nation in the United States, even after he retired it took Brazil 24 years to win a World Cup without him.

 

Look at his achievements as a 17 year old in the 1958 World Cup, has anybody ever scored a better goal in a World Cup Final than Pele did in 1958? Also why do people so easily dismiss the matches he played for Santos against European opposition? Santos at the time played matches against the best sides in Europe who were deemed the best around, yet Santos and Pele in particular didn't just win these games they quite frankly dominated against the very best teams in the world.

 

You rarely hear people say George Best, Di Stefano, Puskas Gerd Muller, Eusebio or Cruijff played against poor defences at the time to belittle their standing in the world of football so why is it acceptable to do this against Pele? Why do people often come out with the ignorance about the state the Brasilian league was in around the time of Pele? Back in Pele's era the Brasilian league was arguably the best in the world as most of their star players didn't play their trade abroad.

 

Their national team was dominant for the best part of a decade, so if the core of such a dominant squad didn't play abroad so why does this make the Brasilian league so poor in that era? I don't think they would've won the 1966 World Cup even if Pele was fit, as at that team it was very much a team in transition with the likes of Garrincha being on a downward spiral and players like Jairzinho not quite being ready at the time.

 

It seems the way people try to dismiss Pele's goalscoring achievement is that he scored the majority of his goals being put through on goal and only having tap-ins to score due to the opposition defences being so poor, never mind the fact he scored every variety of goal. Was it the poor defences that allowed him to score free-kicks or from 30 yards out so consistently?

 

Let's look at the 1970 World Cup, the tournament that guaranteed Pele a place as football's first footballing superstar. Of course part of this was due to the aura the 1970 Brasil team had, it being the first world cup that was televised in colour and made it more accessible to audiences etc. That Brasil team would've won that World Cup without Pele regardless as the team was that good and had some true footballing greats in there like Tostao, Carlos Alberto, Rivelino, Jairzinho and Gerson. Yet Pele stood head and shoulders above all of his team mates. This was a 29 year old Pele, was was past his peak as injuries had taken their toll and he was a completely different player to the Pele of his peak years of 5 years earlier before he had lost that explosiveness due to the injuries that he had sustained from brutal defending. His game was now about being a true playmaker (something which I could see Messi doing when he has lost some of his pace), bringing others into play with his fantastic vision, being the focal point of all of the attacking play of the team. Yet he still managed to put in one of the most iconic performances of any player in the history of the World Cup despite being past his best, yet his greatness enabled him to do this and he was that intelligent on the pitch he was enable to change his game.

 

Excluding all of the above based on his pure footballing talent, he is without a doubt the most complete player to have ever graced a football pitch which is why I rate him as the greatest player of all time. He wasn't just one footed like Maradona or Messi, he was equally adept with his left as he was with his right. Despite only being 5 foot 8 he had a great leap and scored many headers against far more physical or taller opposition. He had explosive pace and could run the 100m in 11 seconds. He was the greatest exponent of the bicycle kick there has ever been. He created many of the tricks people use today. He was often seen performing the "seal" dribble as a way of getting past his opponents, I've also never witnessed anybody hit the ball off an opposition player as a way of getting past them as he knew what trajectory the ball would go when going off them. (He also done this off referees). He had amazing dribbling speed and fantastic ball control, his movement of course was amazing. He inspired players around him and made them better players. His vision and footballing intelligence was world class which allowed him to turn into a playmaker late on in his career after he had lost some of that explosive pace. At times he often played in different positions on the pitch as he was good enough to do so and even once saved a penalty for Santos.

 

People also often say he wouldn't be as good in the modern game due to how technology has now been deployed and the enhancements the game has seen since then. Well if Pele was that good without all of the modern day nutrition and fitness regimes, having to use the old style balls, boots etc, how could he be in today's game with all of those advancements on this side?

 

Lastly some people might say he's not the greatest of all time but it simply cannot be argued that he is the most complete footballer to have ever played the game.

 

Fantastic post and the bit at the end about being the most complete footballer is bang on. Obviously I've never seen him play live but from all the footage and there is lots, no one can deny this all-round game of his. People forget how inventive Pele was too, most of the tricks and show boating we see today even from Messi, stems all the way back to Pele.

 

That goal he nearly scored when he dummied the 'keeper man.... you don't see that kind of inventiveness even today.

 

As for Christiano Ronaldo he may not be as skilful as Messi or have his flair, but he is still a world-class footballer and in some ways, even better than Messi. Certainly in some areas of his game. Ronaldo is definitely up there with your Pele's etc. but he will never get the same kind of recognition probably because he's more machine like to Messi's flair if you like. The amazing thing about Ronaldo is the way he has totally redefined the role of the striker or centre-forward. He started out as a winger, a dribbler, a trickster, and now he is a complete forward in any attacking position. To adapt like that says a lot about his game.

[Disco]

Can I just say that discussions like this and the ones that Beren has created around what we think of certain players are far more interesting to me personally rather than analysing Pardew's body language when he's walking down the tunnel after a match.

 

Hear hear.

 

Superb post on Pele btw, last line is spot on.