Dogawful Officiating: PL to keep VAR next season (official)

[madras]

3 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Fully agree. It's extremely idiotic that there's no common agreed consensus amongst all PL referees on how to apply VAR and in what situations to do so. 

 

Also, the refs being held above accountability. In my opinion an elite referee is an elite athlete within their own "sport". They should be available for post-match interviews on the same level as the players and have to answer the same dumb journo questions.

I think they know how and when to apply it, Spurs/Brighton was proof, it's just they arrived at completely incomprehensible conclusions.

 

I'm coming round to having them explain their reasoning.

[Pata]

I believe the non-penalties in Spurs-Brighton were called like that due to Webb’s bullshit policy. Ref indicated very clearly that neither were a penalty right after they happened and VAR must have thought they have no right to intervene.

It’s just stupid, the arrogance of Webb and the refs is staggering. Denying that they need video help is a joke when their incomptence is the only reason why VAR exists.

[Kid Icarus]

It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with AI VAR like. 

[OCK]

While we're at it, remove this second phase bollocks for players offside. 

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

It wouldn't surprise me if we end up with AI VAR like. 

I read a while ago about a system that removed shirts and colours so you could not

tell what team or even match it was.  I think something like this would be good as it removes doubt of bias. 

[magvicar]

It's pretty simple.

VAR is absolutely not the issue. It's a fantastic leveler.

The issue is in having officials being inept at using it or basically cheating certain   teams out of decisions of which there has been far too man y but the straw that should break the camels back should be the Tottenham v Brighton game. That was blatant VAR official bias and there's absolutely no excuse to be given.

 

Two things need to be done for next season.

1. Demote or sack officials who blatantly call clear decisions wrong.

 

2. Make sure the grey areas of some rules are made more clear, especially the offside rule of toe margins and so on and handball rule being made to be hand/ lower arm to ball and not ball to hand/ lower arm.

 

 

[Miggys First Goal]

There was absolutely something going on with the Spurs-Brighton game. Somebody somewhere wanted Spurs to win. 

[madras]

You just know Brighton will get dodgy decisions on the back of this, obviously not against one of the established "big 6".

 

 

On another note, has our game against Brighton plus VAR been arranged yet ?

[Kaizero]

1 hour ago, magvicar said:

It's pretty simple.

VAR is absolutely not the issue. It's a fantastic leveler.

The issue is in having officials being inept at using it or basically cheating certain   teams out of decisions of which there has been far too man y but the straw that should break the camels back should be the Tottenham v Brighton game. That was blatant VAR official bias and there's absolutely no excuse to be given.

 

Two things need to be done for next season.

1. Demote or sack officials who blatantly call clear decisions wrong.

 

2. Make sure the grey areas of some rules are made more clear, especially the offside rule of toe margins and so on and handball rule being made to be hand/ lower arm to ball and not ball to hand/ lower arm.

 

 

If you saw my post re: first matches using VAR in Norway, I just saw a comment from another of the ref's involved in one of the matches using VAR, and... wow

 

"I called it the second I saw the first replay. That wasn't anymore clear and obvious on video than it was to me on the pitch. I'm not gonna disrupt play watching it over and over for five minutes only to get insecure and end up taking a guess. It was clear to me that the on field decison I made should  stand."

 

An actual beautiful application of the rules and beautiful application of VAR at the same time? What even is this?

 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Kaizero

[Colos Short and Curlies]

You can't get clear and obvious to be consistent, but could a method be that it is a maximum of 3 replays at match speed with a maximum of 1 minute to decide?

 

 

[madras]

1 minute ago, Colos Short and Curlies said:

You can't get clear and obvious to be consistent, but could a method be that it is a maximum of 3 replays at match speed with a maximum of 1 minute to decide?

 

 

The thing then, if you think there's an element of unconscious (or conscious) bias is they'll use that to get out of giving decisions against certain clubs.

[Sean]

3 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

I read a while ago about a system that removed shirts and colours so you could not

tell what team or even match it was.  I think something like this would be good as it removes doubt of bias. 

I've been saying on here for a long time this is needed, as the system we have now generally gives the benefit of doubt to the bigger clubs. Whether that's down to unconcious bias, favouritism, or just plain cheating, I'm not sure. But there's no way those decisions are the same in the Spurs Brighton game if the roles are reversed.

 

Not read anything about this system being developed or thought about yet though, although with modern technology, it clearly would be possible.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Sean

[huss9]

maybe they need a neutral ex pro in the VAR room - but the official has the last word as to whether it has to be revied by the ref.

[madras]

1 minute ago, huss9 said:

maybe they need a neutral ex pro in the VAR room - but the official has the last word as to whether it has to be revied by the ref.

Even then most ex pros subscribe to the "there's contact so he has every right to go down" school of idiocy.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Don't think most footballers even know the rules. 

[80]

13 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Don't think most footballers even know the rules. 

Barely anyone does now. Eddie Howe says he doesn't. It's useful, makes them more pliant.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by 80

[Hanshithispantz]

The obvious solution is just multiple VARs watching independently and casting a vote, instead of a few in a room together talking though the decision.

They could even set up a hub of 30 officials (number pulled out my arse) with 5 of them at any one time reviewing an incident. Each team would have a dedicated VAR at the ground who would notify the hub of a VAR check (the referee, players, managers etc could obviously raise there hand if they spot anything worth looking at). Could cover a days football across Europe quite easily.

 

EDIT: Could even set it up with a media blackout where the VARs don’t know the scores, or even the results of their decisions.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Hanshithispantz

[huss9]

i think limiting the time is an important issue.

and also restricting how much they can slow the film down.

 

but there's no remedy for absolute stupidity.

should be 1 obvious error and you're suspended for a week or two.

 

[OCK]

Basically just flip a coin. 

 

Heads ref was right, tails ref was wrong. Entirely fair. 

[80]

22 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

The obvious solution is just multiple VARs watching independently and casting a vote, instead of a few in a room together talking though the decision.

They could even set up a hub of 30 officials (number pulled out my arse) with 5 of them at any one time reviewing an incident. Each team would have a dedicated VAR at the ground who would notify the hub of a VAR check (the referee, players, managers etc could obviously raise there hand if they spot anything worth looking at). Could cover a days football across Europe quite easily.

 

EDIT: Could even set it up with a media blackout where the VARs don’t know the scores, or even the results of their decisions.

 

 

 

On one hand, I'm sympathetic to the ideas here. On the other, fuck me we're making a pig's ear out of what used to be a fun, simple game enjoyed by small children.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Option 1 - scrap VAR and accept mistakes

Option 2 - use it only for objective matters of fact (pretty much just offside)

Option 3 - fix the football rules so they are compatible with VAR, and improve communication

 

Option 3 could potentially work but would be take a hell of a lot of work. I can see that each rule would need to be broken down into steps (like in cricket where there are various criteria for a decision) and those criteria would need to be displayed and checked off on-screen so everyone knows how a decision has been reached. 

 

For example, for handball something like:

 

- the ball has travelled over X yards or a reasonable distance that a human can react to (tick, cross)

- the player deliberately made his body larger by extending his arm (tick, cross)

- the ball struck the player below the elbow

- the player prevented a goal or key pass (tick, cross)

 

Each rule could be simplified and broken down like that, in theory. 

 

I still prefer to scrap VAR, because fundamentally the rules of football are vague and subjective and adding replays doesn't really solve anything. 

 

Although I'm sure other countries have decent implementations that we could just copy, I don't know what they are. 

 

 

[Miercoles]

I remember watching the 2002 NBA finals, Sacramento Kings vs the Lakers, and being absolutely blown away by the biased officiating. Most people at the time put it down to incompetence, it all evens out over the season, the usual bullshit. A decade later the referee is imprisoned after it comes out that he had been fixing games on behalf of the fucking Mafia.

 

Now this is a smaller league in a country where sports betting is not a "mainstream" activity and is illegal in most areas. The NBA has a lot of international reach but nothing compared to the premier league.

 

Does anybody really think that match fixing is not going on in the biggest league in the world, in a country where sports betting is mainstream, with a massive global betting audience? The amount of money involved is insane, and I would be absolutely fucking AMAZED if some premier league referees hadn't been mobbed up by now.

 

I'm not saying every crap decision is match fixing, but it's crazy to ignore the more egregious games. Games like Tottenham/Brighton where there are literally four egregious decisions all against the same team, that's corruption. It'll be another twenty years before anyone gets arrested, if they don't sweep it under the rug, but I sure as fuck won't be surprised the second time around either.

 

For what it's worth, I completely lost interest in basketball after that series in 2002 and haven't watched the sport since, so it would be good for the premier league to at least make a token effort to clean things up before it gets to that level.

[Likelylad]

53 minutes ago, Miercoles said:

I remember watching the 2002 NBA finals, Sacramento Kings vs the Lakers, and being absolutely blown away by the biased officiating. Most people at the time put it down to incompetence, it all evens out over the season, the usual bullshit. A decade later the referee is imprisoned after it comes out that he had been fixing games on behalf of the fucking Mafia.

 

Now this is a smaller league in a country where sports betting is not a "mainstream" activity and is illegal in most areas. The NBA has a lot of international reach but nothing compared to the premier league.

 

Does anybody really think that match fixing is not going on in the biggest league in the world, in a country where sports betting is mainstream, with a massive global betting audience? The amount of money involved is insane, and I would be absolutely fucking AMAZED if some premier league referees hadn't been mobbed up by now.

 

I'm not saying every crap decision is match fixing, but it's crazy to ignore the more egregious games. Games like Tottenham/Brighton where there are literally four egregious decisions all against the same team, that's corruption. It'll be another twenty years before anyone gets arrested, if they don't sweep it under the rug, but I sure as fuck won't be surprised the second time around either.

 

For what it's worth, I completely lost interest in basketball after that series in 2002 and haven't watched the sport since, so it would be good for the premier league to at least make a token effort to clean things up before it gets to that level.

It’s definitely still rife in the NBA like. Some of the TF’s you seen given now are actually scandalous but the NBA would prefer to bury their head in the sand and claim it’s one rotten apple etc.

 

Wouldn’t be surprised if it’s happening in the Prem. VAR to me actually makes the game more susceptible to it. 

[80]

2 hours ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Option 1 - scrap VAR and accept mistakes

Option 2 - use it only for objective matters of fact (pretty much just offside)

Option 3 - fix the football rules so they are compatible with VAR, and improve communication

 

Option 3 could potentially work but would be take a hell of a lot of work. I can see that each rule would need to be broken down into steps (like in cricket where there are various criteria for a decision) and those criteria would need to be displayed and checked off on-screen so everyone knows how a decision has been reached. 

 

For example, for handball something like:

 

- the ball has travelled over X yards or a reasonable distance that a human can react to (tick, cross)

- the player deliberately made his body larger by extending his arm (tick, cross)

- the ball struck the player below the elbow

- the player prevented a goal or key pass (tick, cross)

 

Each rule could be simplified and broken down like that, in theory. 

 

I still prefer to scrap VAR, because fundamentally the rules of football are vague and subjective and adding replays doesn't really solve anything. 

 

Although I'm sure other countries have decent implementations that we could just copy, I don't know what they are. 

 

 

This is basically it. We're either looking at scrapping it or having much much more of it.

[Hudson]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65269502