Flip Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 htt A great manager is a manager who can successfully fit all his best players. We havent had a great manager since Sir Bobby, and I doubt we will see one in a long time. However, Pardew is doing a good job with the team so we shouldnt really complain even if I for one believe we could do even better if Pardew could fit all of our best players into a successful system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Again, I go back to you preferring the typically English striker Ashton, over the flair and skill of Torres. Hypocritical to say the least if you're using a similar argument to criticise Pardew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Jesus Wept indeed. He is actually right with that post tbh, even if his Big Sam post was cringeworthy at best in the other thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Think we should get him on the left wing so we've got at least one left footed player over there. Jonás to the right. See how it goes for a few games Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The lack of genuine football foresight and thought on here is staggering at times. Its like, but pardew has us 5th, he cannot simply be wrong. I will leave it at this. Hatem ben Arfa or Ryan Taylor? Or Hatem ben Arfa or Obertan? Even the FM mongs would pick Ben Arfa ahead of them and they know fuck all, Pardew is meant to be an expert. There is no excuse to constantly keep overlooking him, when it is so fucking abvious just how good this player is and just how good we can be with him in the side. But then, ulitimately Pardew a cynic in footballing terms, so its to no surprise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Again, I go back to you preferring the typically English striker Ashton, over the flair and skill of Torres. Hypocritical to say the least if you're using a similar argument to criticise Pardew. You're so sad. At no point did I ever say I'd perfer Ashton over Torres, all I ever said was the of the two, the Englishman was the better all-rounder and lets remember at that very time, Torres was a very raw hit and miss kind of striker who the likes of Barca et al looked at and thought... nah. He did remarkably well at Liverpool and showed just how good he was as a goalscorer, but as a footballer, we are seeing perhaps the real Torres at Chelsea. Not that my opinion on that means anything in regards to this. Unless you're saying Ryan Taylor or Obertan are to Ben Arfa, what my Ashton was to your Torress? I.e. inferior?! By the way, Ashton was nothing like your typical English striker, he had brains, great technique and good footwork. He was more Teddy Sheringham than say Andy Carroll. If not for injuries, he could have been a huge player, especially for England. I'd have loved us to have signed him from Crewe, Sir Bobby even wanted him, but there were concerns about a back problem or something. Such a tragedy he had to retire early. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BlacknWhiteArmy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 htt A great manager is a manager who can successfully fit all his best players. We havent had a great manager since Sir Bobby, and I doubt we will see one in a long time. However, Pardew is doing a good job with the team so we shouldnt really complain even if I for one believe we could do even better if Pardew could fit all of our best players into a successful system. He is doing a very good job but that shouldn't mean he is above criticism or that his use of players can be better utilised as is the obvious case with Ben Arfa, and I say obvious because he's scored what 3 goals and created a similar ammount in only a handful of starts, if that were a striker you'd be hard pressed to drop him. Ben Arfa muts surely be a better option than Ryan Taylor or Obertan, especially at home to the likes of QPR and Villa? I know I'm coming accross as a Pardew hater but even a blind man would pick Ben Arfa ahead of them two. The fact Pardew doesn't suggests he either doesn't like the player or rate him or doesn't fully know how to use him. If the latter is the case this is poor management on his behalf. If he doesn't rate or like him then he doesn't have a clue about football because he's superior to Tyalor or Obertan. If he has fallen out with him that could explain things but I don't think he has. I genuinley feel he doesn't have a clue what to do with him and perfers the safety net if you like or Taylor or Obertan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The lack of genuine football foresight and thought on here is staggering at times. Its like, but pardew has us 5th, he cannot simply be wrong. I will leave it at this. Hatem ben Arfa or Ryan Taylor? Or Hatem ben Arfa or Obertan? Even the FM mongs would pick Ben Arfa ahead of them and they know fuck all, Pardew is meant to be an expert. There is no excuse to constantly keep overlooking him, when it is so fucking abvious just how good this player is and just how good we can be with him in the side. But then, ulitimately Pardew a cynic in footballing terms, so its to no surprise. Says the bloke so wrapped up in one player whilst completing ignoring the rest of the squad and philosophy. Good work Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The lack of genuine football foresight and thought on here is staggering at times. Its like, but pardew has us 5th, he cannot simply be wrong. I will leave it at this. Hatem ben Arfa or Ryan Taylor? Or Hatem ben Arfa or Obertan? Even the FM mongs would pick Ben Arfa ahead of them and they know f*** all, Pardew is meant to be an expert. There is no excuse to constantly keep overlooking him, when it is so f***ing abvious just how good this player is and just how good we can be with him in the side. But then, ulitimately Pardew a cynic in footballing terms, so its to no surprise. Says the bloke so wrapped up in one player whilst completing ignoring the rest of the squad and philosophy. Good work You're better than this tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 You're not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thorin Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It's kind of funny how we yesterday discussed this topic and today I see this ridiculous "outburst" from AP on how HBA doesn't grasp the PL. LOL! It's also kinda funny how people seem to think AP is right, comparing HBA to Obertan and how Obertan make some runs and he's suddenly better. His end product blows, he simply can not finish a decent pass, nor does he offer anything special in the final third besides the hit n run pace of his. I mean, was Ronaldo or Nani really that defensive minded when they arrived at United? I think not, and what happened? They BECAME a couple of the best ones in the league after a while. How can AP think that HBA will adapt to what he wants from him, without playing him? It makes absolutely no sense at all. And I'm not saying our team should stay in a circle around HBA, no player is bigger than the team spirit we have here, but instead of making up excuses maybe we would be better off actually trying to get HBA to adapt to how we want to play? Tell him to look for the key pass instead of another dribble or whatnot, I don't really care, but what I do care about is the fact that players that don't really give us anything - still is looked upon as 'KEY' players in our line-up when we obviously have one sitting on the bench?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The worst thing about this is that IF it does drive Ben Arfa away we've undoubtedly lost one of our most talented players for the future (not just this season), and a type of player who we'll be lucky to get again within the next decade. We'll be left with Obertan who will genuinely be lucky to be playing in a top 10 side in a couple of seasons, it's daft. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Obertan really isn't defending more than HBA as some seem to suggest ie. Obertan is RM, HBA is not. HBA has worked harder in the few games he has played lately. Obertan has been the passenger in our team this season and that's why it's mad how much Pardew gives him chances. I would move Jonas to right as he hasn't really clicked offensively with Santon yet and Simpson needs more help. That would also IMO help Jonas' end product as his right is clearly much better than he's left. His left foot crosses are mainly floaters as he needs to put so much effort in only getting the ball in the air. Move HBA to LM where he loses the ball more on the sideline rather than in the middle after cutting in and it wouldn't be as dangerous. And I don't think he loses the ball too much, but Pardew clearly thinks so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The worst thing about this is that IF it does drive Ben Arfa away we've undoubtedly lost one of our most talented players for the future (not just this season), and a type of player who we'll be lucky to get again within the next decade. We'll be left with Obertan who will genuinely be lucky to be playing in a top 10 side in a couple of seasons, it's daft. Agree. What surprises me is the people here actually defending playing Obertan or Raylor before HBA, its just crazy. Like i wrote earlier today, if we had a very good traditional RM, sure, its harder to fit him in. But now, we don`t, Ben Arfa could be that man if he got the chance over a good amount of games. Now he gets played, does well some matches. Then dragged of at halftime or benched if the team (and him) are not doing well. How does that help him gain confidence While players like Ameobi, Obertan, Raylor are/was almost certain to be left on the pitch or gets many matches to fit into the team. I can not get my head around it, sorry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't think many are defending Obertan or Raylor per say (although Raylor deserves little criticism given his season and general professionalism he shows), it's more to do with willing to accept the managers judgement on what players would be best for the TEAM, not just picking the best players. England national team is a perfect example of how just picking the best players doesn't always work. But yeah, thinking like that is close minded... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 It's been a strange season for Ben Arfa, coming back from a long term injury, plus no pre-season, added to the fact that he's trying to get into a team which is built on not conceding first and seeing where it takes us. I'm a massive Ben Arfa fan but i'll give Pardew until the end of the season to see what he does with him before judging (i've already slagged him off to high heaven over his treatment but quite frankly i haven't got the nerve to criticise much about him considering how well we're doing). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I don't think many are defending Obertan or Raylor per say (although Raylor deserves little criticism given his season and general professionalism he shows), it's more to do with willing to accept the managers judgement on what players would be best for the TEAM, not just picking the best players. England national team is a perfect example of how just picking the best players doesn't always work. But yeah, thinking like that is close minded... Well yeah, everyone's point here is that Ben Arfa will be better for the team though. Raylor can arguably play a bigger part in some games, and certainly when Cabaye and Tiote are out he gives us more 'steel' in midfield which may be beneficial. Obertan however brings nothing that Ben Arfa cannot, his only plus point is that he's right footed (even if he cannot use it). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I still don't think it's that simple, basically I don't think Pardew is not selecting him for the shits and giggles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think there's no doubt he's after a reaction, but only from the player himself. The idea that he is trying to turn the fans against HBA is laughable imho. He clearly rates him ("unbelievable talent"), and wants to play him, maybe even going as far as to change the system to accommodate a player who he himself has said can be forgiven losing the ball as he gives us so much extra going forward. But having said all that, he seems to not be getting enough back from the lad to risk him at the moment and I cant argue too much after some of the performances he's put in (such as the first half against Blackburn) sadly. I hope to God that HBA proves whatever he needs to, or Pardew gives up to a degree and compromises sooner rather than later though; It would be a hell of a shame if it doesn't work out. He's the type of player you dream about pulling on the shirt for us. Pardew being after a reaction from the player is rubbish, he could get that by talking to Ben Arfa, he doesn't have to broadcast anything. How would you feel if your boss was talking about you under-performing to your work mates instead of to you? It wouldn't happen in any other workplace as your boss would be disciplined for doing so. I suggest that you read up about bullying in the workplace. Here's a link for you http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/ResolvingWorkplaceDisputes/DiscriminationAtWork/DG_10026670 does any of that ring a bell? What purpose does it serve telling the press his negative thoughts on a player? What can he say to the press that he can't say to players face? The simple answer is that nothing good can come from it that couldn't come from the manager managing a player one to one instead of through the press. I've been managing people for years and wouldn't dream of treating anybody the way in which Pardew is treating Ben Arfa. I can't think of a better way of de-motivating people than slagging them off to anybody who would care to listen and it's bordering on that with Pardew and Ben Arfa. My guess is that sometime in the future Ben Arfa will kick off and the people defending Pardew will blame the player and not the manager even though it's going to be the managers behaviour towards him that will cause the problem. I doubt any of us would put up with what Ben Arfa is reading about himself in the paper. Why should we expect somebody else to put up with what we wouldn’t? I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I have no problem with Pardew wanting more from Ben Arfa, he should want more from everybody. I do have a problem with the way he is constantly talking to the press about things which should stay inside of the club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I still don't think it's that simple, basically I don't think Pardew is not selecting him for the shits and giggles. Why do you think he's not selecting him then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I still don't think it's that simple, basically I don't think Pardew is not selecting him for the shits and giggles. Why do you think he's not selecting him then? The best reason I can think of is a mixture of us having a weakened central midfield, him coming back from one long term/one short terms injury, no pre-season and that although hoofing the ball/Shola being offside/Obertan running into a dead end loses us the ball HBA unfortunately tends to lose the ball at the most dangerous times and dangerous areas of the pitch leaving us massively exposed (more so than those options stated) even if he is infinitely more talented. Pardew has found a system that wins games and HBA could be a risk to that as he is more of a free player. Do you think it's just for the shits and giggles then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Football is a funny business in that you do see managers publically commenting on their players' performances. The Ben Arfa debate is becoming dull though. Yes he's got talent but it's shown only in glimpses. I hope long term we'll see him bedded into the side but it will always be more about the team winning than pandering to any particular player, no matter who they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Obertan gives us width, like, Ben Arfa won't stay out wide all game. However our chance creation is fucking horrible this season imo, we create maybe 2-3 clear cut chances a game but we've gotten away with it due to Ba having one of (if not the) best convertion rates in the league. It's been said before but we've been pretty 'lucky' with a lot of points this season due to some fairly heroic last ditch defending and Tim Krul in goal, and I very much doubt we'd lose that if we play Ben Arfa ahead of Obertan, I do however think we'd score a fair few more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 That's a fair point. How many times this season have we sored more than 2 goals in a league game? Stoke, Man Utd and Blackburn (h)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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