Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Reading between the lines, Pardew STILL doesn't see him as a winger. He's being a stubborn t*** about it and it's one of my main gripes with him TBH. There has been loads of games where he could have come on out wide, or even started there and AP hasn't used him. You hear him in interviews when he is talking about the strikers, he always mentions Ben Arfa. We changed formation to that 4-2-3-1 to accomodate HBA. Whilst I actually quite like the formation, we didn't have the players to do it and I wasn't sure why we didn't just play 4-4-2 with him out wide? The only thing I can think of, is we were missing Cheik and Ba, yesterday we were missing Cheik and Cabaye. Perhaps because of us missing two key players, AP thinks of Ben Arfa as a luxury player and doesn't want to risk him. If he still can't get in the side for the Wolves game, with Cheik and Cabaye back and hopefully available, then the writing is on the wall, he'll leave in the summer. Starting to sound like your typical knee jerk fan, but he's too talented to sit on our bench and I doubt his ego will allow it. I feel a little sorry for him, he has played as a no.10 in some the toughest games of the season (Man U, Man City, Chelsea) and then got dropped. Played in this new system without Ba or Tiote, had a couple of poor games and back to the bench again. I just feel like we haven't actually seen enough of him to even make a fair assessment, we only see him off the bench when we're chasing games and he's not had a run in the side in a fixed position. I thought bringing Obertan on yesterday was the right decision, but Obertan and R.Taylor are not better options out wide in the long term. Would understand if HBA left to be honest, so far I think his talent has been totally wasted by Pardew. Might just be being massively paranoid, but I don't think AP is particularly keen on him. Usually the first to get hauled, often left sat on the bench and seems to get praise, followed by 3 slight put downs or critiscisms, which doesn't seem PArdew's style with any other players Thanks for that very good post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consortium of one Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Right now, if Ben Arfa wants a starting spot it will have to be on the right wing. The club pretty much has to stay with the 442 as long as Ba and Cisse are healthy. That means that HBA has to track back defensively to help cover for Simpson. Obertan appears to be working harder but he passes the ball to the opposition too much. Raylor, at this point in time, plays better as a defensive winger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. As i said Ba isnt moving anywhere he's been playing that role all year long, he just joins up with the other striker when we are on the attack to make it a 4-4-2...... For proof look at his average position against Man Utd...... http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/16/55/20/10/averag10.png Exactly where i put him in my formation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I can see where reefatoon is coming from like, and that is why Pardew has stuck to the 442 generally. He has got great results with it so doesn't have any incentive to change really. As a fan I just want to see more of HBA! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotus Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. As i said Ba isnt moving anywhere he's been playing that role all year long, he just joins up with the other striker when we are on the attack to make it a 4-4-2...... For proof look at his average position against Man Utd...... http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/16/55/20/10/averag10.png Exactly where i put him in my formation. I'm fairly confident that with 13 players we'd beat anybody! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. As i said Ba isnt moving anywhere he's been playing that role all year long, he just joins up with the other striker when we are on the attack to make it a 4-4-2...... For proof look at his average position against Man Utd...... http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/16/55/20/10/averag10.png Exactly where i put him in my formation. Well that's fair enough, but you are sacrificing a midfield player to fit in Ben Arfa. We know Ben Arfa will not do the tracking back, which would mean Ba doing more of the tracking back and covering in midfield when we get outnumbered in there (which we will). Playing that system will affect Ba, as he will have to drop even deeper than he does now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 LOL its from ESPN they add the average positions of the subs aswell which is why Obertan and Perch are there aswell...... Anyway i think my point stands lol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. As i said Ba isnt moving anywhere he's been playing that role all year long, he just joins up with the other striker when we are on the attack to make it a 4-4-2...... For proof look at his average position against Man Utd...... http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/16/55/20/10/averag10.png Exactly where i put him in my formation. I'm fairly confident that with 13 players we'd beat anybody! Nah it 14 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest H09 Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. As i said Ba isnt moving anywhere he's been playing that role all year long, he just joins up with the other striker when we are on the attack to make it a 4-4-2...... For proof look at his average position against Man Utd...... http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/16/55/20/10/averag10.png Exactly where i put him in my formation. I'm fairly confident that with 13 players we'd beat anybody! I think there might be 14 because someone is hiding behind Cabaye? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 LOL its from ESPN they add the average positions of the subs aswell which is why Obertan and Perch are there aswell...... Anyway i think my point stands lol. We would only have 3 midfielders in that lineup though? one of the front three would have to drop in and help out when the opposition is on the attack (You seem to be just looking at it on an attacking point for us). Ben Arfa is never going to work his socks off tracking back, it just isn't in his game, which would mean Ba doing that kind of work, he would end up so much deeper as he would be getting dragged back when the opposition is attacking. We couldn't leave all three up top when teams are attacking us, it would be a nightmare. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 According to ESPN that is Leon Best...... On Ben Arfa making Ba work even harder, i dont see it....... The only reason we struggle atm is because instead of Ba, Tiote, Cabaye,Jonas and Cisse working hard off the ball....... In recent weeks we have had Guthrie, Perch, Shola and Best..... I dont think it will matter a great deal as long those players mentioned are in the line up. Plus its not like we are drastically changing anything we are just putting Ben Arfa in for Obertan and with the work rate in the side( first eleven) i really dont see a problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VaVaVoom Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 To lose this lad without giving him a chance to shine would be a massive disappointment. He's exactly the kind of player we love and haven't had for years. I understand the worries about protection for Simpson, I just hope we find some way to make use of Ben Arfa's immense talent. Sign a decent LB and play Santon behind him. Simple really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 According to ESPN that is Leon Best...... On Ben Arfa making Ba work even harder, i dont see it....... The only reason we struggle atm is because instead of Ba, Tiote, Cabaye,Jonas and Cisse working hard off the ball....... In recent weeks we have had Guthrie, Perch, Shola and Best..... I dont think it will matter a great deal as long those players mentioned are in the line up. Plus its not like we are drastically changing anything we are just putting Ben Arfa in for Obertan and with the work rate in the side( first eleven) i really dont see a problem. you weren't doing that though mate. You were playing without wingers and three in the middle. The only way I can see Ben Arfa in the team is wide left. but at the moment it isn't going to happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VaVaVoom Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I've been calling for a 4-3-3 all season, but with the signing of Papiss Cisse it just isn't our best formation anymore. HBA's only hope of making it back into the squad is if he can pull off left wing ahead of Jonas (worth a try imo) 4-2-3-1 is the best system for us IMO...... Simpson Williamson Colo Santon Tiote Cabaye Ben Arfa Ba Jonas Cisse Ba drops deep into midfield to help out the midfield two anyway so i dont see the problem with it, obviously changes to 4-4-2 when we are on the attack....... The percieved problem with Ben Arfa's lack of work rate is quite frankly a non issue with Ba dropping in midfield and Cabaye and Tiote protecting the defence. I understand why Pardew wouldnt want Ben Arfa with Perch and Guthrie in midfield and Best and Shola upfront but with Tiote, Cabaye and Ba i dont see an argument tbh. Also Cisse works very hard off the ball aswell. That there should be what we try when we have Cabaye and Tiote back and if we stick with it, i think it would work very well. Add into that a new LB, Santon at RB and Taylor back in with Colo next season and we have a very fuckin good team with balance, genuine threat down the wings, through the middle and up top with a solid defensive unit too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lush Vlad Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. As i said Ba isnt moving anywhere he's been playing that role all year long, he just joins up with the other striker when we are on the attack to make it a 4-4-2...... For proof look at his average position against Man Utd...... http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/16/55/20/10/averag10.png Exactly where i put him in my formation. Well that's fair enough, but you are sacrificing a midfield player to fit in Ben Arfa. We know Ben Arfa will not do the tracking back, which would mean Ba doing more of the tracking back and covering in midfield when we get outnumbered in there (which we will). Playing that system will affect Ba, as he will have to drop even deeper than he does now. Do we? Depsite two shite performances, you certainly can't say this about him against Brighton or Blackburn, he tracked back well against QPR as well, credit to Pardew on that front. We already have one fairly defensive winger in Jonas and whilst Obertan works hard, he's hardly a second full back. When did everyone start caring so much about wingers being defensive minded Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 According to ESPN that is Leon Best...... On Ben Arfa making Ba work even harder, i dont see it....... The only reason we struggle atm is because instead of Ba, Tiote, Cabaye,Jonas and Cisse working hard off the ball....... In recent weeks we have had Guthrie, Perch, Shola and Best..... I dont think it will matter a great deal as long those players mentioned are in the line up. Plus its not like we are drastically changing anything we are just putting Ben Arfa in for Obertan and with the work rate in the side( first eleven) i really dont see a problem. you weren't doing that though mate. You were playing without wingers and three in the middle. The only way I can see Ben Arfa in the team is wide left. but at the moment it isn't going to happen. Ben Arfa and Jonas were wingers atleast thats how i meant to show, plus Ba was playing off Cisse not in the middle....... Maybe i should of wrote the formation in a more clear manner and more like how it would be on the pitch so people could understand easier.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Our fullbacks are weak defensively. We create enough chances for a couple goals a game. No need for all this change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 He'll score the winner in the derby then all shall be well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Ba isn't really moving very far in that formation, it's just a formalisation of the fact he likes to play deeper than Cisse. He isn't moving very far, but his role would be hugely different. He would be expected to track back and cover all the time, which would completely change and affect his game. Absolute madness to ask Ba to do anything even slightly different to what he is doing now. As i said Ba isnt moving anywhere he's been playing that role all year long, he just joins up with the other striker when we are on the attack to make it a 4-4-2...... For proof look at his average position against Man Utd...... http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/16/55/20/10/averag10.png Exactly where i put him in my formation. Well that's fair enough, but you are sacrificing a midfield player to fit in Ben Arfa. We know Ben Arfa will not do the tracking back, which would mean Ba doing more of the tracking back and covering in midfield when we get outnumbered in there (which we will). Playing that system will affect Ba, as he will have to drop even deeper than he does now. Do we? Depsite two s**** performances, you certainly can't say this about him against Brighton or Blackburn, he tracked back well against QPR as well, credit to Pardew on that front. We already have one fairly defensive winger in Jonas and whilst Obertan works hard, he's hardly a second full back. When did everyone start caring so much about wingers being defensive minded Come on, he is not one for working back!!!! It's not a case of them being defensive minded, but we were talking about the formation with no wingers and saying Ba would be the one dropping back more as he has a much bigger work ethic. (not sure where you are going with wingers being defensive minded, as we were talking about a formation without wingers) Look a little further back mate, you seem to have jumped into a conversation half way through. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VaVaVoom Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Our fullbacks are weak defensively. We create enough chances for a couple goals a game. No need for all this change. Really? I dont think we NEED to change but i think it would be progression for the group and our brand of football will benefit from it in the long run. I'd want to see us give it a try when key players are back and see how it goes but i'd like to think that with a new FB in the summer the 4231 would be our starting tactic on the 1st day of next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 We need another CM and a better full back than Simpson to field a decent 4-3-3 IMO. I'm torn on it, I really feel weird about moving Ba after how well he's done up front. I do think it could potentially work very well though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Our fullbacks are weak defensively. We create enough chances for a couple goals a game. No need for all this change. Really? I dont think we NEED to change but i think it would be progression for the group and our brand of football will benefit from it in the long run. I'd want to see us give it a try when key players are back and see how it goes but i'd like to think that with a new FB in the summer the 4231 would be our starting tactic on the 1st day of next season. Why though? we are 1 point off fourth. What has been so drastically wrong for us to have to change the formation? Who in their right mind would have thought we would have been where where we are? It's absolutely fantastic, so why start messing around with the formation in the run up?? We have a genuine chance of Europe here, lets just do what we have been doing because it is working a charm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 The whole point is that there's no need to change, but some people might prefer a different style. It's a valid point, obviously it's also fine to say "let's try and keep going with what has worked so far". Nobody is saying anything is drastically wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lush Vlad Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Aye ok reefatoon, forget the 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 4-bloody whatever I just think your point about him not tracking back is well wide of the mark. Especially seeing as against Blackburn and Brighton, despite having a shitter, he worked pretty hard and it's certainly noticable compared to earlier in his career. It's been pointed out by many on here and AP himself has even praised him for it. He's never going to be a Jonas like work horse, but then not many players are. I think he does enough going forward to warrant a place in the team ahead of R.Taylor and Obertan and it's not like he's a Robert or Ginola in terms of defensive duties either. Would start him against Wolves when Cabaye and Tiote are back for sure. You can carry on bickering about formations now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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