Hatem Ben Arfa

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I think we also need to separate "treatment of Ben Afa" from "not always picking Ben Arfa".

 

What I mean is that we don't know what's going on behind the scenes, and we don't have any signs of unrest. For all we know Pardew is managing HBA well and is telling him that he will play a big part when we have a bit more solidity behind him. I would love to see more of HBA, but for all I know he's being treated fine.

[gbandit]

Pardew's got a number of things right since coming in, he's got this one completely and utterly wrong. We could strike fear into teams with a more attacking mould and Ben Arfa is the player to do it. Instead, he gets bit part roles, has to play with Shola up front, has to wait for every player in the team squad to get a game before him and then when he does play we're left expecting him to transform us, even though he's been given hardly any chance at all under Pardew. I'm actually amazed he's achieved what he has this season give his leg break and the lack of opportunities given to him. I hope he goes off to a different side in the summer and plays well there because he deserves to, there's no point in him being here with Pardew managing him like he is. It sets a worrying precedent for our future style of play as well if we fail to accommodate one of the most technically gifted players in the league

[Lotus]

Managers make strange decisions from time to time.

 

I know Dalgleish knows more about football probably than all of us put together but he got rid of Ginola and Asprilla for Stephen Glass and Stephane Guivarc'h.

 

We all know Souness is a c*** but anyone listening to him commentate can't argue he know's his stuff, first thing on his mind when he arrived was to get rid of Robert and Bellamy.

 

SBR was a legend, i still remember him dropping Solano TO THE DETRIMENT OF THE TEAM because he was annoyed Solano decided he still wanted to play for Peru.

 

These were all decisions that from the outside, most of us thought wrong and to be fair, none of them worked out well! Pardew seems to have an issue with playing Ben Arfa. Given his alternatives i'm not sure why. Raylor puts in a good ball but isn't a very effective wide man, he's also not quick enough to really stretch a team or cover a good distance to help out his FB, hence he doesn't got too far forward. Obertan doesn't offers less going forward, one could accept this if he was defending as well as Jonas, he doesn't do that at all though. The only thing Obertan's got going for him is i think it was Pardew's decision to buy him (my conjecture) so i think Pardew want's to justfy that (i think the Ben Arfa deal was already in place but not completed before he arrived). Of the 3, Ben arfa is the bigger threat to the opposition, as good at helping his FB as Obertan, i.e. not that much but then we don't face massively attacking LBs every week.

 

The only thing left for me is that it's personal. And that may not be Pardew's fault, maybe Ben Arfa has been out of line. Frankly, i'd like to see it resolved because if not, we need a RW desperately as neither of the other 2 are good enough.

[alpal78]

Don't see how Ben Arfa is in any way comparable to Tevez and Mascherano to be honest. Unless you're trying to make the point that Pardew doesn't like good players, which clearly isn't true.

 

Why is he not? Most talented player in his squad just like Carlitos was at West Ham. Not saying Pardew doesnt like good players, he jusv doesnt know how to get the best out of them. Hes a classic english manager who knows and loves his graft and committed players. (which amazes me since he gives Obertan playing time).

 

He clearly believes Ben Arfa has no part to play this season or will get his chances as soon as tiote and cabaye are back.

 

Like I Said, Tevez/Mascherano and Ben Arfa have absolutely nothing in common style-wise other than the fact that they're good players.

 

If you're going to claim that Pardew is biased against Ben Arfa because he doesn't like certain kinds of players, there has to be some sort of criteria. Like I said "good player" obviously isn't it, given that he's perfectly fine with playing other good players.

 

You offer two potential answers to this question;

 

a. He doesn't like foreign players. Given that Krul gets in ahead of Forster and Tiote/Cabaye gets in ahead of Guthrie, and Ba/Cisse gets in ahead of Shola, this doesn't seem to be the case. Why is Ben Arfa the only foreign player being discriminated against?

 

b. He doesn't like players who don't graft. This explanation can't really apply to Tevez, given that he grafts the f*** out of every game when he's bothered and Mascherano who also tends to run around like a rabid greyhound.

 

So if your argument is that Pardew has some sort of preconceived bias against a certain type of player that is leading him to treat all of Tevez, Mascherano, and Ben Arfa unfairly, again, you're going to have to tell me what this criteria is because I can't really figure it out.

 

In the absence of that sort of distinction, maybe the question we should be asking is not "what's wrong with Pardew?" but "what's wrong with Ben Arfa?"

 

At the end of the day, I don't really care about this whole song and dance. The desired end state is "win games" not "play Hatem Ben Arfa."

 

I'm sure he has the potential to be good, probably even great, but so do a lot of players. It would be nice if he could make it work here, but If we're achieving the former a reasonable amount of times I'm not really bothered about how we're doing with the latter.

 

So you tell us what's wrong with HBA and don't go down this work rate tosh coz he works harder than Obertan (at least based on the last game) and dam well harder than Shola. I'll tell you what's wrong with Pardew, he is an extremely negative manager whose first thoughts are always how do we not concede a goal. He clearly does not believe in the idea that attack is the best defence and that by putting pressure on the opponent's defence, they are far less likely to commit men forward and over run us. To a certain extent this defense policy has worked for us in that the defending side of our game is usually quite dependable. But to go to the next level and certainly against better teams we need to take chances and attack them, make them worry about us too. This is especially so against teams with attack minded fullbacks (Bale, Cole...etc) as these full backs are either forced to stay back and defend or move up as a second winger which cause all sorts of havoc to us.

 

Against Spurs when we were down 0-2 after 10 minutes, Pardew wasn't thinking of how we can get back into the game, instead he just stood by and hope something magical would happen. By half time, he had basically given up the game, instead of strengthening our attack and try and get us some respect back which logically would have seen HBA thrown in for some attacking impetus, he brought in Ferguson and shifted Jonas to the right to support Simpson. This was a move to strengthen both flanks defensively but for what, we were already losing 0-4? But Pardew was more worried about conceding more goals than trying to get back a few goals hence the substitutions made. Of course the Arsenal magical comeback game would sort of negate my argument, but if we are honest the fightback was more a result of the sending off and us exploiting the numerical advantage than Pardew changing tactics to be more offensive.

 

With this mindset, HBA is going to see very few games because although he works just as hard as the rest, he is exceptional attacking wise and is the type of player that makes something happen. This is not Pardew's priority at all, he'd rather play a percentage game, get crosses in and hope one of our strikers scores  whilst all the while maintaining our defensive shape. HBA said this himself in the interview that he prefers to play pass and move whereas Pardew prefers him to put crosses into the box (which he said he is willing to adapt to...but for him to change his whole style of play, surprise surprise he will need games) . With Pardew's philosophy our progress will always have a glass ceiling and I doubt we'll be able to push much further than where we are now. What are the similarities between the two Manchester clubs, Arsenal, Chelsea, Spurs and to a lesser extent Liverpool? They not only get points but they play good football based on fluid and quick passing. I'm not saying we're Stoke, but we are far away from playing a fluid passing game like these other teams even though it could well be argued that, we do have the players to play such a game. The difference between us and the other teams is the manager managing the respective teams.

[Parky]

Don't see how Ben Arfa is in any way comparable to Tevez and Mascherano to be honest. Unless you're trying to make the point that Pardew doesn't like good players, which clearly isn't true.

 

Why is he not? Most talented player in his squad just like Carlitos was at West Ham. Not saying Pardew doesnt like good players, he jusv doesnt know how to get the best out of them. Hes a classic english manager who knows and loves his graft and committed players. (which amazes me since he gives Obertan playing time).

 

He clearly believes Ben Arfa has no part to play this season or will get his chances as soon as tiote and cabaye are back.

 

Like I Said, Tevez/Mascherano and Ben Arfa have absolutely nothing in common style-wise other than the fact that they're good players.

 

If you're going to claim that Pardew is biased against Ben Arfa because he doesn't like certain kinds of players, there has to be some sort of criteria. Like I said "good player" obviously isn't it, given that he's perfectly fine with playing other good players.

 

You offer two potential answers to this question;

 

a. He doesn't like foreign players. Given that Krul gets in ahead of Forster and Tiote/Cabaye gets in ahead of Guthrie, and Ba/Cisse gets in ahead of Shola, this doesn't seem to be the case. Why is Ben Arfa the only foreign player being discriminated against?

 

b. He doesn't like players who don't graft. This explanation can't really apply to Tevez, given that he grafts the f*** out of every game when he's bothered and Mascherano who also tends to run around like a rabid greyhound.

 

So if your argument is that Pardew has some sort of preconceived bias against a certain type of player that is leading him to treat all of Tevez, Mascherano, and Ben Arfa unfairly, again, you're going to have to tell me what this criteria is because I can't really figure it out.

 

In the absence of that sort of distinction, maybe the question we should be asking is not "what's wrong with Pardew?" but "what's wrong with Ben Arfa?"

 

At the end of the day, I don't really care about this whole song and dance. The desired end state is "win games" not "play Hatem Ben Arfa."

 

I'm sure he has the potential to be good, probably even great, but so do a lot of players. It would be nice if he could make it work here, but If we're achieving the former a reasonable amount of times I'm not really bothered about how we're doing with the latter.

 

So you tell us what's wrong with HBA and don't go down this work rate tosh coz he works harder than Obertan (at least based on the last game) and dam well harder than Shola. I'll tell you what's wrong with Pardew, he is an extremely negative manager whose first thoughts are always how do we not concede goal. He clearly does not believe in the idea that attack is the best defence and that by putting pressure on the opponent's defence, they are far less likely to commit men forward and over run us. To a certain extent this defense policy has worked for us in that the defending side of our games is usually quite dependable. But to go to the next level and certainly against better teams we need to take chances and attack them, make them worried about us too. This is especially so against teams with attack minded fullbacks (Bale, Cole...etc) as these full backs are either forced to stay back and defend or move up as a second winger which cause all sorts of havoc to us.

 

Against Spurs when we were down 0-2 after 10 minutes, Pardew wasn't thinking of how we can get back into the game, instead he just stood by and hope something magical would happen. By half time, he had basically given up the game, instead of strengthening our attack and try and get us some respect back which logically would have seen HBA thrown in for some attacking impetus, he brought in Ferguson and shifted Jonas to the right to support Simpson. This was a move to strengthen both flanks defensively but for what, we were already losing 0-4. But Pardew was more worried about conceding more goals than trying to get back a few goals hence the substitutions made. Of course the Arsenal magical comeback game would sort of negate my argument, but if we are honest the fightback was more a result of the sending off and us exploiting the numerical advantage than Pardew changing tactics to be more offensive.

 

With this mindset, HBA is going to see very few games because although he works just as hard as the rest, he is exceptional attacking wise and is the type of player that makes something happen. This is not Pardew's priority at all, he'd rather play a percentage game, get crosses in and hope one of our strikers scores  whilst all the while maintaining our defensive shape. HBA said this himself in the interview that he prefers to play pass and move whereas Pardew prefers him to put crosses into the box. With this philosophy our progress will always have a glass ceiling and I doubt we'll be able to push much further than where we are now.

 

Top post.

[Guest Dontooner]

Think the argument that Pardew plays a direct style hence prefer organize and direct players is a fact. How he sets the teams up to play and how the attack patterns flow, shows in every darn match. His ideal type of player that fits his system would be a beckham sort as it would balance his formation and tactics very well.

 

Honestly, pass and move football is more suited to skillful players therefore its quite obviously even Sliva, Mata and Modric  wouldnt fit here.

 

Those who support Pardew has to see its his formation and preferred tactics that eliminates the joy of Flair

players as the team won't be able to support them leaving them as a lone rangers. We rarely have any over lapping runners in any game, unlike the top 7 teams now, excluding us.

 

 

Those who would want to see HBA or Flair players striving in this formation is delusion as well, with the direct style, the ball bypass them anyhow , there is no way its going to work. Pardew prefers the direct style as its his most comfortable/knowledgeable and he is getting the results. Fact. We even have the strikers now that could thrive on the direct style when given the service. Must be blind if you cant see the team he is building thrives best in a flat 4-4-2. Its the best and most efficient style , results wise as well , all season.

 

For Flair players like Tevez,Hba or Messi to integrate here, There needs to be a compromise of the formation and tactics. At this point, Pardew gets his results so he is the boss.

 

All this nonsense abut HBA being talented and would improve the team and him being a liability is Nonsense. First and foremost, the formation and tactics would dictate which players are more suitable. Sell him and get a Solano type of player, the improvement will be instant. 

 

 

[Hughesy]

I'd rather have a prime Solano than Ben Arfa..

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

Yeah, these "Solano types" are just sitting on their floor in their homes shivering from the cold and awaiting a call from Newcastle United.

 

Actually, this is incorrect. Most are gainfully employed at top clubs and have no interest in coming here. We have an incredibly skilled player here now. We should use him.

[Hanshithispantz]

Yeah, these "Solano types" are just sitting on their floor in their homes shivering from the cold and awaiting a call from Newcastle United.

 

Actually, this is incorrect. Most are gainfully employed at top clubs and have no interest in coming here. We have an incredibly skilled player here now. We should use him.

[Anderson]

Yeah, these "Solano types" are just sitting on their floor in their homes shivering from the cold and awaiting a call from Newcastle United.

 

Actually, this is incorrect. Most are gainfully employed at top clubs and have no interest in coming here. We have an incredibly skilled player here now. We should use him.

 

Thanks for clearing that up, I'd foolishly got my hopes up for a second there.

[Guest Dontooner]

Yeah, these "Solano types" are just sitting on their floor in their homes shivering from the cold and awaiting a call from Newcastle United.

 

Actually, this is incorrect. Most are gainfully employed at top clubs and have no interest in coming here. We have an incredibly skilled player here now. We should use him.

Read , He doesnt fit in Pardew's Most knowledgeable and confident formation direct 4-4-2 . Even Messi and Pele would look slightly above Average in this team( only displaying at 50-60% of their talents).

[Parky]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

.........OPapiss....

[Guest reefatoon]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

 

........Papiss....

 

That's very narrow, teams will just play around us, dragging everyone out of position.

[Parky]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

 

........Papiss....

 

That's very narrow, teams will just play around us, dragging everyone out of position.

 

ManC, Chelsea play that way.  They have good enough full backs to do it, which is the point you should have made.

[Guest reefatoon]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

 

........Papiss....

 

That's very narrow, teams will just play around us, dragging everyone out of position.

 

ManC, Chelsea all play that way.  They have good enough full backs to do it, which is the point you should have made.

 

I also wouldn't want to see Cabaye being dragged out wide to fit that system either, because that's what will happen with the two midfielders infront of where Tiote will play.  Again we are moving key players around to try and fit in Ben Arfa.  It's crackers.

[Zero]

You wouldnt find players like Simpson n Willi to be starting 11 for other top teams. And if we have a midfield consist of silva n modric, no one in the world would play a direct style. We gotta be realistic.

[Parky]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

 

........Papiss....

 

That's very narrow, teams will just play around us, dragging everyone out of position.

 

ManC, Chelsea all play that way.  They have good enough full backs to do it, which is the point you should have made.

 

I also wouldn't want to see Cabaye being dragged out wide to fit that system either, because that's what will happen with the two midfielders infront of where Tiote will play.  Again we are moving key players around to try and fit in Ben Arfa.  It's crackers.

 

Well carry on playing our shit wingers than and quit moaning.

[Hanshithispantz]

Yeah, these "Solano types" are just sitting on their floor in their homes shivering from the cold and awaiting a call from Newcastle United.

 

Actually, this is incorrect. Most are gainfully employed at top clubs and have no interest in coming here. We have an incredibly skilled player here now. We should use him.

Read , He doesnt fit in Pardew's Most knowledgeable and confident formation direct 4-4-2 . Even Messi and Pele would look slightly above Average in this team( only displaying at 50-60% of their talents).

*Leaves Thread*

 

[Guest reefatoon]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

 

........Papiss....

 

That's very narrow, teams will just play around us, dragging everyone out of position.

 

ManC, Chelsea all play that way.  They have good enough full backs to do it, which is the point you should have made.

 

I also wouldn't want to see Cabaye being dragged out wide to fit that system either, because that's what will happen with the two midfielders infront of where Tiote will play.  Again we are moving key players around to try and fit in Ben Arfa.  It's crackers.

 

Well carry on playing our s*** wingers than and quit moaning.

 

??  I am not moaning about playing wingers though?  I want to see us playing wingers.

[Parky]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

 

........Papiss....

 

That's very narrow, teams will just play around us, dragging everyone out of position.

 

ManC, Chelsea all play that way.  They have good enough full backs to do it, which is the point you should have made.

 

I also wouldn't want to see Cabaye being dragged out wide to fit that system either, because that's what will happen with the two midfielders infront of where Tiote will play.  Again we are moving key players around to try and fit in Ben Arfa.  It's crackers.

 

Mourinho has about 5 players shunting from one side of the pitch to the other covering it means nothing. Arrigo Sacchi invented it back in the day ie two DM's one a playmaker (Cabaye).

[Guest reefatoon]

Parky the only way I see Ben Arfa fitting into the formation you set up would be where you have Ba, and you can't drop Demba Ba for him, playing him deeper would just leave us more vulnerable in midfield and the 3 you have in there would be dragged all over the place.

[Parky]

When the two midfield lynchpins get back for Wolves we should be playing this if we want fluid, cogent football with posession in postive areas (keeping the ball alive in their half).

 

O.......O....O......O

 

...........O.............

......O........O........

..........OHBA..............

 

............OBa........

 

........Papiss....

 

That's very narrow, teams will just play around us, dragging everyone out of position.

 

ManC, Chelsea all play that way.  They have good enough full backs to do it, which is the point you should have made.

 

I also wouldn't want to see Cabaye being dragged out wide to fit that system either, because that's what will happen with the two midfielders infront of where Tiote will play.  Again we are moving key players around to try and fit in Ben Arfa.  It's crackers.

 

Well carry on playing our s*** wingers than and quit moaning.

 

??  I am not moaning about playing wingers though?  I want to see us playing wingers.

 

Nobody plays wingers anymore. Even with Spurs and Arsenal the winger argument is moot as Bale has a free role now. The Arsenal 'wingers' come inside all the time.

 

edit

 

Actually Spurs are the only top side that do a fair bit of what I'd call oldskool crossing and is why Saha has been added.

[Guest Dontooner]

Yeah, these "Solano types" are just sitting on their floor in their homes shivering from the cold and awaiting a call from Newcastle United.

 

Actually, this is incorrect. Most are gainfully employed at top clubs and have no interest in coming here. We have an incredibly skilled player here now. We should use him.

Read , He doesnt fit in Pardew's Most knowledgeable and confident formation direct 4-4-2 . Even Messi and Pele would look slightly above Average in this team( only displaying at 50-60% of their talents).

*Leaves Thread*

 

i thought its quite logical?

Just watch how Messi plays in the Argentina and Pele in his Brazil. Formation and tactics, makes all the difference for Flair attacking players. How much attacking potential could be release from the players pretty much depends on the players around them too, its still a team game in the end.

[Parky]

Parky the only way I see Ben Arfa fitting into the formation you set up would be where you have Ba, and you can't drop Demba Ba for him, playing him deeper would just leave us more vulnerable in midfield and the 3 you have in there would be dragged all over the place.

 

I'd drop Guti. I can only think he's in the side for his workrate, he hasn't done much else.

[Guest Dontooner]

You wouldnt find players like Simpson n Willi to be starting 11 for other top teams. And if we have a midfield consist of silva n modric, no one in the world would play a direct style. We gotta be realistic.

Hence top clubs dont employ limited or direct managers. Its already quite a little amazement how we landed ourselves with Ben Arfa. He would probably do fairly well in top teams. even Mourinho wanted him at Real Mardrid.