Gallowgate Toon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 What's wrong with having someone that can play as a targetman? There are quite a few good footballing sides that use someone of that ilk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I'm trying to remember some glaring misses from him... anyone? Only because that could lead us to what may be the problem is... is he getting into positions and not converting, or simply not even reading the game as he used to anymore, and positioning is the problem? I'm just as flummoxed by this as anybody. wat Goodness me, what the fuck is it with this board? Dave, I just woke up, this was not some pro-Cisse laying-of-the-gauntlet sentence, I'm trying to see if the issue is simply finishing or he's completely stopped even reading the game. Calm down you tart. I think I just got my period. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 What's wrong with having someone that can play as a targetman? There are quite a few good footballing sides that use someone of that ilk. Nowt. It's just frustrating knowing that we could play a different, more pleasing on the eye and more effective game - given the talent we have across the squad. But, like I say, if we want long-term results then I think Pardew has to re-hash the squad into one that suits him more. Get rid of the cultured (or shit) wingers in favour of orthodox ones, get a target man or two. It'll be a real wrench if someone like Hatem was to leave, but I'm starting to wonder what his point in the squad actually is. He's no impact sub. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 You can still play an expansive game and have a target man. I've no sympathy for Papiss or Hatem not getting into the side when they legitimately offer less than the alternatives currently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 What's wrong with having someone that can play as a targetman? There are quite a few good footballing sides that use someone of that ilk. Nowt. It's just frustrating knowing that we could play a different, more pleasing on the eye and more effective game - given the talent we have across the squad. But, like I say, if we want long-term results then I think Pardew has to re-hash the squad into one that suits him more. Get rid of the cultured (or s***) wingers in favour of orthodox ones, get a target man or two. It'll be a real wrench if someone like Hatem was to leave, but I'm starting to wonder what his point in the squad actually is. He's no impact sub. We can play a pleasing-on-the-eye game with a targetman type. Dortmund do it, Arsenal do it, City do it, Munich have done it etc. I think we've played some really great stuff over the last 2 months, the problem has been keeping the tempo of it up. We've generally used Shola well enough, in my opinion, not been too direct with his presence and he's linked up with others pretty effectively on the deck (well, in spells, at least). That's why the likes of Dortmund have prospered, they don't rely too much on one approach but vary it. Shola isn't a good enough long-term option, but he's shown the benefits of having a player like him in a modern team that has lots of pace etc. Buying someone that can take his role with better fitness, more energy and a couple more goals in him should be our first move, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 You can still play an expansive game and have a target man. I've no sympathy for Papiss or Hatem not getting into the side when they legitimately offer less than the alternatives currently. I'm not sure how Ben Arfa offers less than Shola, Cisse at the minute seems shot of confidence and probably needs some games in the reserves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I suspect his point was that Ben Arfa currently offers less than Gouffran, Sissoko and Remy, who are our currently preferred wide players/second strikers (i.e. "the alternatives"). I also suspect you knew this is what he meant and you decided to ask regardless.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segun Oluwaniyi Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I don't think Ben Arfa "offers less" than any of those players. Their styles of play and defensive abilities (in terms of Yoann and Moussa) are simply more suited to the way we have decided to play lately. It is not a situation like with Cisse, where his performances have been so poor that he simply cannot be started. Honestly, if the results had been different and the performances similar, I believe Pardew would have put Hatem back in the first XI by now. He is reluctant to change a winning formula. Really, I think one player is still very much in our plans, while the other is one that the club should/will look to replace. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Spaceman Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Sell, sell, sell! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Playing off the last man requires some sort of intelligence and trying to beat the offside trap. He doesn't do this at all, he just runs as soon as we look to be breaking and more often than not he is caught miles offside because he doesn't look across the line or attempt to time his runs. Maybe if we were pushing forward rather than looking to break (at home) he would be more useful? With more player in the opposition half it would be less easy for the opposition defenders to step up and play the offside game. I just think we need to stop making excuses for him tbh. Remy and Gouffran have both managed to break behind or anticipate saves/deflections etc.. The Cisse defence got old a long time ago now, we are verging on blaming the position of the moon or how Capricorns always struggle to score during this month. Remy and Gouffran are better at playing on the break without doubt. But when either one has been asked to play up front as the central striker they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either tbf. When was this? Remy started one game as a striker in the premier, can't remember which one exactly, but there were quite a few comments after the game that he looked far more effective on the left. Gouffran started a game in the Carling Cup as striker against Oxford I think it was and he was anonymous and got subbed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I don't think Ben Arfa "offers less" than any of those players. Their styles of play and defensive abilities (in terms of Yoann and Moussa) are simply more suited to the way we have decided to play lately. It is not a situation like with Cisse, where his performances have been so poor that he simply cannot be started. Honestly, if the results had been different and the performances similar, I believe Pardew would have put Hatem back in the first XI by now. He is reluctant to change a winning formula. Really, I think one player is still very much in our plans, while the other is one that the club should/will look to replace. Agree 100% Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Playing off the last man requires some sort of intelligence and trying to beat the offside trap. He doesn't do this at all, he just runs as soon as we look to be breaking and more often than not he is caught miles offside because he doesn't look across the line or attempt to time his runs. Maybe if we were pushing forward rather than looking to break (at home) he would be more useful? With more player in the opposition half it would be less easy for the opposition defenders to step up and play the offside game. I just think we need to stop making excuses for him tbh. Remy and Gouffran have both managed to break behind or anticipate saves/deflections etc.. The Cisse defence got old a long time ago now, we are verging on blaming the position of the moon or how Capricorns always struggle to score during this month. Remy and Gouffran are better at playing on the break without doubt. But when either one has been asked to play up front as the central striker they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either tbf. When was this? Remy started one game as a striker in the premier, can't remember which one exactly, but there were quite a few comments after the game that he looked far more effective on the left. Gouffran started a game in the Carling Cup as striker against Oxford I think it was and he was anonymous and got subbed. So one game each vs 18 months of bad form, and you have decided based on this that they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either..? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Playing off the last man requires some sort of intelligence and trying to beat the offside trap. He doesn't do this at all, he just runs as soon as we look to be breaking and more often than not he is caught miles offside because he doesn't look across the line or attempt to time his runs. Maybe if we were pushing forward rather than looking to break (at home) he would be more useful? With more player in the opposition half it would be less easy for the opposition defenders to step up and play the offside game. I just think we need to stop making excuses for him tbh. Remy and Gouffran have both managed to break behind or anticipate saves/deflections etc.. The Cisse defence got old a long time ago now, we are verging on blaming the position of the moon or how Capricorns always struggle to score during this month. Remy and Gouffran are better at playing on the break without doubt. But when either one has been asked to play up front as the central striker they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either tbf. When was this? Remy started one game as a striker in the premier, can't remember which one exactly, but there were quite a few comments after the game that he looked far more effective on the left. Gouffran started a game in the Carling Cup as striker against Oxford I think it was and he was anonymous and got subbed. So one game each vs 18 months of bad form, and you have decided based on this that they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either..? Well people were calling Cisse worse than shit yesterday based on 30 mins when we were all over the place as a team anyway. Yes they have only played one game each up front but until we see them play more that's all we've got to go on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Playing off the last man requires some sort of intelligence and trying to beat the offside trap. He doesn't do this at all, he just runs as soon as we look to be breaking and more often than not he is caught miles offside because he doesn't look across the line or attempt to time his runs. Maybe if we were pushing forward rather than looking to break (at home) he would be more useful? With more player in the opposition half it would be less easy for the opposition defenders to step up and play the offside game. I just think we need to stop making excuses for him tbh. Remy and Gouffran have both managed to break behind or anticipate saves/deflections etc.. The Cisse defence got old a long time ago now, we are verging on blaming the position of the moon or how Capricorns always struggle to score during this month. Remy and Gouffran are better at playing on the break without doubt. But when either one has been asked to play up front as the central striker they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either tbf. When was this? Remy started one game as a striker in the premier, can't remember which one exactly, but there were quite a few comments after the game that he looked far more effective on the left. Gouffran started a game in the Carling Cup as striker against Oxford I think it was and he was anonymous and got subbed. So one game each vs 18 months of bad form, and you have decided based on this that they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either..? Well people were calling Cisse worse than s*** yesterday based on 30 mins when we were all over the place as a team anyway. Yes they have only played one game each up front but until we see them play more that's all we've got to go on. I'm sure if Cisse had put in some good performances this season and scored a couple of goals people wouldn't be so harsh after a rather indifferent 30 minutes. I just find it kind of odd that you would say Gouffran and Remy have "also" not pulled up any trees when played centrally whilst also conceding that they both have had one game in the position, versus dozens for Cisse. For what it's worth, I wish Cisse showed at least glimpses of getting back into form, and took his place as the number nine of this club, because we badly miss an out and out goalscorer. It's the difference between us competing for Europe (the 5th place season with Ba and then Cisse, this season so far with Remy, then Gouffran) and us flirting with relegation (last season with a misfiring Cisse). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Playing off the last man requires some sort of intelligence and trying to beat the offside trap. He doesn't do this at all, he just runs as soon as we look to be breaking and more often than not he is caught miles offside because he doesn't look across the line or attempt to time his runs. Maybe if we were pushing forward rather than looking to break (at home) he would be more useful? With more player in the opposition half it would be less easy for the opposition defenders to step up and play the offside game. I just think we need to stop making excuses for him tbh. Remy and Gouffran have both managed to break behind or anticipate saves/deflections etc.. The Cisse defence got old a long time ago now, we are verging on blaming the position of the moon or how Capricorns always struggle to score during this month. Remy and Gouffran are better at playing on the break without doubt. But when either one has been asked to play up front as the central striker they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either tbf. When was this? Remy started one game as a striker in the premier, can't remember which one exactly, but there were quite a few comments after the game that he looked far more effective on the left. Gouffran started a game in the Carling Cup as striker against Oxford I think it was and he was anonymous and got subbed. So one game each vs 18 months of bad form, and you have decided based on this that they haven't exactly pulled up any trees either..? Well people were calling Cisse worse than s*** yesterday based on 30 mins when we were all over the place as a team anyway. Yes they have only played one game each up front but until we see them play more that's all we've got to go on. I'm sure if Cisse had put in some good performances this season and scored a couple of goals people wouldn't be so harsh after a rather indifferent 30 minutes. I just find it kind of odd that you would say Gouffran and Remy have "also" not pulled up any trees when played centrally whilst also conceding that they both have had one game in the position, versus dozens for Cisse. For what it's worth, I wish Cisse showed at least glimpses of getting back into form, and took his place as the number nine of this club, because we badly miss an out and out goalscorer. It's the difference between us competing for Europe (the 5th place season with Ba and then Cisse, this season so far with Remy, then Gouffran) and us flirting with relegation (last season with a misfiring Cisse). I agree Cisse has been poor this season, but my point was made in relation to yesterday's performance. He hardly had two touches yet he was being called worse than shit. It's just a case of fans wanting a scapegoat sometimes and yesterday that's what it felt like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Fuck knows what you were watching, TRon. I really like Cisse but the time for pointing fingers elsewhere when that's the kind of nonsense he continues to serve up has been and gone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Fuck knows what you were watching, TRon. I really like Cisse but the time for pointing fingers elsewhere when that's the kind of nonsense he continues to serve up has been and gone. How's it pointing fingers elsewhere? Our football was all over the place in the second half, I wouldn't really blame any individual when you lose shape and direction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ujpest doza Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I think Cisse would be a much better player if he was running onto a ball towards the opposition goal rather than trying to pluck balls out of the air or trying to play through the opposition. He's got pace yet we don't try to make use of it often enough. I don't know what's wrong with him but you can't go from being the player we signed to the player we currently see for no reason. His first half of a season was too good for him to be a shit player, shit players can't and don't do what he did for half a season. They can have good games but they don't do it for as long as he did. Cisse would have buried the 2 chances that Remy fluffed yesterday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Segun Oluwaniyi Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Cisse would have mis-controlled the ball after Saints fourth choice keeper passed it directly to him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Cisse's heat map from yesterday. Part of the problem is where he's being asked to play. http://i43.tinypic.com/xlb18i.png Mind, the other part of the problem is that he's garbage at the moment....if 'moment' means 'for about 16 months'. Willing to bet that those 2 big green blobs are the results of glancing on Krul's hoofs. Barely involved in the game at all. Still can't figure out how he's regressed so much. The standard of goals he scored in 2011 could not be sustained but he's gone so far backwards it's untrue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 You can still play an expansive game and have a target man. I've no sympathy for Papiss or Hatem not getting into the side when they legitimately offer less than the alternatives currently. HBA offering less, Wow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 Fuck knows what you were watching, TRon. I really like Cisse but the time for pointing fingers elsewhere when that's the kind of nonsense he continues to serve up has been and gone. How's it pointing fingers elsewhere? Our football was all over the place in the second half, I wouldn't really blame any individual when you lose shape and direction. You wouldn't blame any individual for forgetting the offside rule or how to control the ball? We're not talking about tactical indiscipline here, man. We're talking about total failure to achieve the basics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 You can still play an expansive game and have a target man. I've no sympathy for Papiss or Hatem not getting into the side when they legitimately offer less than the alternatives currently. HBA offering less, Wow. Currently, as CD states. I don't think that is such a preposterous statement considering our recent results which coincide with him being dropped in favour of Sissoko, Gouffran and Remy as our wide options? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I'd rather Hatem than Shola tbh. I don't subscribe to the theory that we need a big man up there to perform.... surely the Man Utd game proved that? Although it would be great to have a big man who can actually score granted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted December 15, 2013 Share Posted December 15, 2013 I'd rather Hatem than Shola tbh. I don't subscribe to the theory that we need a big man up there to perform.... surely the Man Utd game proved that? Although it would be great to have a big man who can actually score granted. I think we need a big man for some games and situations but not all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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