Papiss Cissé

[Dr Venkman]

He could have remedied that partly by playing Marveaux, he's full of shit.

[Cajun]

Is he wrong?

 

Tiote, Perch, Jonas notorious creators of goals? Cisse has missed chances but it can't be denied we are missing 'door openers'.

[Mick]

Is he wrong?

 

Tiote, Perch, Jonas notorious creators of goals? Cisse has missed chances but it can't be denied we are missing 'door openers'.

 

We managed to find one at about 4:30 on Saturday, the sly bastard must have been in hiding.

[Unbelievable]

Is he wrong?

 

Tiote, Perch, Jonas notorious creators of goals? Cisse has missed chances but it can't be denied we are missing 'door openers'.

 

We managed to find one at about 4:30 on Saturday, the sly b****** must have been in hiding.

 

As if Cisse would have 100% scored that "chance". Marv's little wait and pass was important like, but it was hardly put on a plate for Shola..

[Mick]

 

 

As if Cisse would have 1005 scored that "chance". Marv's little wait and pass was important like, but it was hardly put on a plate for Shola..

 

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[Skeletor]

 

 

As if Cisse would have 1005 scored that "chance". Marv's little wait and pass was important like, but it was hardly put on a plate for Shola..

 

ZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-w6K1T9j5of8/UBvTpOs7UjI/AAAAAAAAAso/D8v9_gVIQmo/s1600/tumblr_m0c24flZ4I1qhisau.gif

[Dr Venkman]

Why are you being so pretentious? "Excuses", what excuses? He's had a clear dip in form and people are trying to come up with reasons why, they aren't excuses.

 

It's not like there has been any reports of him not pulling his weight in training, or he isn't applying himself on the pitch, there are clearly other reasons for his dip in form. I don't necessarily think it's all Pardew's fault, that would be harsh, but at the moment it is as he's playing him on the f***ing wing.

 

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong..

 

As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me.

 

As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba?

 

Beggars f***ing belief this like.

 

I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself.

 

The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season.

 

If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season.

 

 

None of that takes into account the fact that Cisse hasn't once been sent out as the middle striker of a 3 this season, and that may have something to do with his drop in form.

 

I get it though, we're playing badly and getting shit results but you two are concerned about changing anything

 

Cisse has had chances and missed them, it's very odd that the only way he can perform is if he is specifically in the middle of a front 3.

 

Doing the man a massive discredit there, he isn't Defore/Bent, he is just going through a poor patch which isn't the time you move one forward to a position he doesn't score in the hope an underperforming one will start.

 

Cisse will get more chances playing in the middle. Ba will get the chances Cisse is getting now if he plays wide, just as he did last season.

 

More importantly than all of that, the team will function better.

[Dr Venkman]

Why are you being so pretentious? "Excuses", what excuses? He's had a clear dip in form and people are trying to come up with reasons why, they aren't excuses.

 

It's not like there has been any reports of him not pulling his weight in training, or he isn't applying himself on the pitch, there are clearly other reasons for his dip in form. I don't necessarily think it's all Pardew's fault, that would be harsh, but at the moment it is as he's playing him on the f***ing wing.

 

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong..

 

As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me.

 

As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba?

 

Beggars f***ing belief this like.

 

I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself.

 

The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season.

 

If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season.

 

We did it at the start of this season for the sake of a sulking striker. Why can't we do it now for the sake of an under performing team getting s*** results?

 

Except we didn't. We reverted to the tactic we employed for 80% of our matches last season to great effect and accommodated both Ba and Cisse in central forward positions in an attempt to combine our defensive solidity of last season with playing two top class strikers capable of scoring 50 goals between them in theory. Whilst it's clearly not worked out as we hoped it would, I find it extremely simplistic to discredit this concept with the benefit of hindsight considering the fact we have also looked extremely vulnerable at times with the 433 formation that's now considered to be some sort of silver bullet by some on here.

 

Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't members of this forum who've expressed their concern about these players in a 4-4-2 since the beginning of last season?

 

Pardew got away with 'keep it tight, nobody move, pass it to Ba' for a good while and it was fun but so many people on here were talking about it being unsustainable.

 

We're discrediting the concept of these players in a 4-4-2 with hindsight? I've heard everything now.

[Unbelievable]

Why are you being so pretentious? "Excuses", what excuses? He's had a clear dip in form and people are trying to come up with reasons why, they aren't excuses.

 

It's not like there has been any reports of him not pulling his weight in training, or he isn't applying himself on the pitch, there are clearly other reasons for his dip in form. I don't necessarily think it's all Pardew's fault, that would be harsh, but at the moment it is as he's playing him on the f***ing wing.

 

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong..

 

As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me.

 

As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba?

 

Beggars f***ing belief this like.

 

I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself.

 

The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season.

 

If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season.

 

We did it at the start of this season for the sake of a sulking striker. Why can't we do it now for the sake of an under performing team getting s*** results?

 

Except we didn't. We reverted to the tactic we employed for 80% of our matches last season to great effect and accommodated both Ba and Cisse in central forward positions in an attempt to combine our defensive solidity of last season with playing two top class strikers capable of scoring 50 goals between them in theory. Whilst it's clearly not worked out as we hoped it would, I find it extremely simplistic to discredit this concept with the benefit of hindsight considering the fact we have also looked extremely vulnerable at times with the 433 formation that's now considered to be some sort of silver bullet by some on here.

 

Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't members of this forum who've expressed their concern about these players in a 4-4-2 since the beginning of last season?

 

Pardew got away with 'keep it tight, nobody move, pass it to Ba' for a good while and it was fun but so many people on here were talking about it being unsustainable.

 

We're discrediting the concept of these players in a 4-4-2 with hindsight? I've heard everything now.

 

A 442 with Ba and Cisse up top, both central, both capable of 25 goals a season in that position in theory and Ben Arfa in support, starting from the right but with a license to roam? It worked with lesser players (Best, Shola) to an extent last season, so yes, I feel it was definitely worth a shot. If Cisse had brought his shooting boots from summer holiday we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[themanupstairs]

Why are you being so pretentious? "Excuses", what excuses? He's had a clear dip in form and people are trying to come up with reasons why, they aren't excuses.

 

It's not like there has been any reports of him not pulling his weight in training, or he isn't applying himself on the pitch, there are clearly other reasons for his dip in form. I don't necessarily think it's all Pardew's fault, that would be harsh, but at the moment it is as he's playing him on the f***ing wing.

 

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong..

 

As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me.

 

As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba?

 

Beggars f***ing belief this like.

 

I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself.

 

The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season.

 

If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season.

 

We did it at the start of this season for the sake of a sulking striker. Why can't we do it now for the sake of an under performing team getting s*** results?

 

Except we didn't. We reverted to the tactic we employed for 80% of our matches last season to great effect and accommodated both Ba and Cisse in central forward positions in an attempt to combine our defensive solidity of last season with playing two top class strikers capable of scoring 50 goals between them in theory. Whilst it's clearly not worked out as we hoped it would, I find it extremely simplistic to discredit this concept with the benefit of hindsight considering the fact we have also looked extremely vulnerable at times with the 433 formation that's now considered to be some sort of silver bullet by some on here.

 

Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't members of this forum who've expressed their concern about these players in a 4-4-2 since the beginning of last season?

 

Pardew got away with 'keep it tight, nobody move, pass it to Ba' for a good while and it was fun but so many people on here were talking about it being unsustainable.

 

We're discrediting the concept of these players in a 4-4-2 with hindsight? I've heard everything now.

 

A 442 with Ba and Cisse up top, both central, both capable of 25 goals a season in that position in theory and Ben Arfa in support, starting from the right but with a license to roam? It worked with lesser players (Best, Shola) to an extent last season, so yes, I feel it was definitely worth a shot. If Cisse had brought his shooting boots from summer holiday we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

Do not disagree with that in theory. I've always said that with 2 strikers capable of 15 odd goals each in half a season, we shouldn't even think twice about playing them together up front, trying to get maximum return. A strike force of Ba and Cisse on paper, if it clicks, could easily get us CL football imo. IF it clicks. Evidence so far seems to be that they don't play well together for whatever reason, but I do not fault Pardew for trying to see if it does. It was bang on the right decision to try it.

 

Keep in mind that last season it was Obertan who played on the right, and he provided much more width in the 442 than HBA does. One is a natural winger, the other isn't.

[Parky]

2 strikers is dark ages stuff. In the modern game the 2nd striker is a link player now between the midfield and the attack. He makes sure the team keeps posession till the attacking phase is properly supported. Nobody just kicks it up to 2 strikers. Nobody.

[pi_D]

2 strikers is dark ages stuff. In the modern game the 2nd striker is a link player now between the midfield and the attack. He makes sure the team keeps posession till the attacking phase is properly supported. Nobody just kicks it up to 2 strikers. Nobody.

[Dr Venkman]

Why are you being so pretentious? "Excuses", what excuses? He's had a clear dip in form and people are trying to come up with reasons why, they aren't excuses.

 

It's not like there has been any reports of him not pulling his weight in training, or he isn't applying himself on the pitch, there are clearly other reasons for his dip in form. I don't necessarily think it's all Pardew's fault, that would be harsh, but at the moment it is as he's playing him on the f***ing wing.

 

Trying to come up with reasons why his form has dipped and then only ending up with reasons outside of his control is what I call making excuses. Pretty sure that's what making excuses means too, but than again English is nog my mother tongue so I may be wrong..

 

As for the reason why Cisse has been so disappointing, I don't know and I din't want to theorise. What I do know though, and that's how this argument started, is that moving Ba who is scoring away from goal to accomodate a stuttering Cisse in the centre seems like utter madness to me.

 

As mad as moving Cisse away from the centre to accommodate a sulking, stuttering Ba?

 

Beggars f***ing belief this like.

 

I knew this was coming. I for one am perfectly happy for our best players to request being played in their preferred position, as long as they deliver when they are. Ba has delivered whenever he has played in the centre for us, Cisse hasn't so far this season, so with a change from two to one central striker it was obvious he was the one going wide for a while or out of the first team altogether (which I would have preferred btw). I fully expect Cisse to get frustrated for being played out wide, just as Ba did. Four games in, and the first signs were there last Saturday. He will have to walk the walk too though, like Ba did when he requested to play centrally. As I said, in a 433 there is only one place for a real central striker, which they both are. May the best one win. At the moment that is Ba. I really hope Cisse refinds his form of last year and reclaims his place. That's primarily up to him though; if he keeps missing chances at this rate it may be a while yet. If he starts banging them in I am sure nobody will be more delighted than Pardew himself.

 

The manager needs to do what's best for the team based on the evidence available. He's not doing it, and he wouldn't be sacrificing anything by trying something which worked so well last season.

 

If Cisse was playing anywhere near as well as last season we wouldn't even be having this debate. As it is, displacing the forward who is doing the business to accomodate the one who isn't is indeed a huge sacrifice considering where we would be right now if Ba's form was like Cisse's this season.

 

We did it at the start of this season for the sake of a sulking striker. Why can't we do it now for the sake of an under performing team getting s*** results?

 

Except we didn't. We reverted to the tactic we employed for 80% of our matches last season to great effect and accommodated both Ba and Cisse in central forward positions in an attempt to combine our defensive solidity of last season with playing two top class strikers capable of scoring 50 goals between them in theory. Whilst it's clearly not worked out as we hoped it would, I find it extremely simplistic to discredit this concept with the benefit of hindsight considering the fact we have also looked extremely vulnerable at times with the 433 formation that's now considered to be some sort of silver bullet by some on here.

 

Excuse me? Are you seriously suggesting that there aren't members of this forum who've expressed their concern about these players in a 4-4-2 since the beginning of last season?

 

Pardew got away with 'keep it tight, nobody move, pass it to Ba' for a good while and it was fun but so many people on here were talking about it being unsustainable.

 

We're discrediting the concept of these players in a 4-4-2 with hindsight? I've heard everything now.

 

A 442 with Ba and Cisse up top, both central, both capable of 25 goals a season in that position in theory and Ben Arfa in support, starting from the right but with a license to roam? It worked with lesser players (Best, Shola) to an extent last season, so yes, I feel it was definitely worth a shot. If Cisse had brought his shooting boots from summer holiday we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

Worth a shot? Fair enough. But saying that the 4-4-2 and the limitations of the way Pardew uses it are being judged in hindsight this season is just a lie, imo.

[Mick]

 

Worth a shot? Fair enough. But saying that the 4-4-2 and the limitations of the way Pardew uses it are being judged in hindsight this season is just a lie, imo.

 

He's in denial, go and enjoy your Christmas. 

[loki679]

2 strikers is dark ages stuff. In the modern game the 2nd striker is a link player now between the midfield and the attack. He makes sure the team keeps posession till the attacking phase is properly supported. Nobody just kicks it up to 2 strikers. Nobody.

 

[Guest tollemache]

It's not possible to have two pure strikers who only attack, but that's not the same as saying one has to be a deep-lying player and one an out-an-out striker. If they have a good partnership they should be able to share those duties, and the formation would still for all intents and purposes be a straight 4-4-2.

 

Moot point perhaps, because our two don't seem to have a good understanding going, but in theory the idea of fielding two strikers, neither playing a more attacking game than the other on the whole, is perfectly realistic. Frustrating because you'd have thought that if any two similar strikers could sort that out between them, it'd be them. They could probably thrash it out in German if they wanted.

[Guest tollemache]

But yeah, it's been obvious for so so so so long that we play better in a 4-3-3, with Jonas working in the middle free from having to produce crosses, Ben Arfa less obliged to track back, one of the big strikers given clear precedence and - to be fair - Cabaye actually on the fucking pitch. Anyone with eyes was frustrated to see 4-4-2 used so stubbornly at the start of the season just as they'd have been delighted to see the 4-3-3 coming together so encouragingly in March/April/May, so to claim it's hindsight now is daft. It's been the thing about team selection that has baffled everyone the most since August and the idea that it's all been to accommodate Ba really grates. This is coming from someone more determined than most to defend the manager's approach...

[Yorkie]

I just don't think the only options are a traditional flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 where he's 50 yards from goal. They're two extremes; there's bound to be a middle ground somewhere. They're both excellent players so it's infuriating how Pardew can't seem to make them work in the same team. It's the sorta shit i thought we'd found in this manager.

[oldtype]

I just don't think the only options are a traditional flat 4-4-2 or a 4-3-3 where he's 50 yards from goal. They're two extremes; there's bound to be a middle ground somewhere. They're both excellent players so it's infuriating how Pardew can't seem to make them work in the same team. It's the sorta shit i thought we'd found in this manager.

 

Agree with this. I can't offer an alternative, but that's why I'm not paid to be a football manager.

 

We have good footballers, figure out a formation that plays to their strengths rather than trotting out the same obvious shit. That's supposed to be the manager's job.

[Unbelievable]

It's not possible to have two pure strikers who only attack, but that's not the same as saying one has to be a deep-lying player and one an out-an-out striker. If they have a good partnership they should be able to share those duties, and the formation would still for all intents and purposes be a straight 4-4-2.

 

Moot point perhaps, because our two don't seem to have a good understanding going, but in theory the idea of fielding two strikers, neither playing a more attacking game than the other on the whole, is perfectly realistic. Frustrating because you'd have thought that if any two similar strikers could sort that out between them, it'd be them. They could probably thrash it out in German if they wanted.

 

 

My point about hindsight is quite obviously regarding the combination of Ba and Cisse in the type of formation/collaboration you have just described perfectly.

[Guest tollemache]

Yeah... It's true to say we might reasonably have expected it to work, but it's also true to say it's been obvious for quite a long time that it wasn't working - at least not working as well as just having a tighter, more populous midfield.

 

There again, in light of Ben Arfa and Cabaye not being available, you might see some justification for giving 4-4-2 another go, because the 4-3-3 was great for those two. Without them, our two most influential players going forward on paper would be our two strikers, not our two creative midfielders. So I can kind of accept the argument for giving 4-4-2 another bash in the midst of an injury crisis. What I can't accept as easily is the rationale for starting the season with it, which seems to have been more about appeasing Ba.

[Unbelievable]

Yeah... It's true to say we might reasonably have expected it to work, but it's also true to say it's been obvious for quite a long time that it wasn't working - at least not working as well as just having a tighter, more populous midfield.

 

There again, in light of Ben Arfa and Cabaye not being available, you might see some justification for giving 4-4-2 another go, because the 4-3-3 was great for those two. Without them, our two most influential players going forward on paper would be our two strikers, not our two creative midfielders. So I can kind of accept the argument for giving 4-4-2 another bash in the midst of an injury crisis. What I can't accept as easily is the rationale for starting the season with it, which seems to have been more about appeasing Ba.

 

Funny, in the last four matches we have seen Cisse play wide right in what looks more like a 451/433. I've certainly not seen another striker alongside Ba, so to me it looks like Pardew is trying to change our style of play despite two crucial cogs missing for that system to work as you say, only with Ba central and Cisse out wide which is defendable considering their respective goalscoring records this season.

[Jordan]

[Dinho lad]

Demba who?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Superb goal, fantastic run and brilliant finish.