Hanshithispantz Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 I'm saying he could have hit the target by cushioning it towards the centre of the goal instead of trying to loop it to the back post, he wouldn't have scored as Lloris would have easily caught it but he would have been tested. Penalties don't really work in this context as you're 12 yards from goal with a dead ball, if you don't test the keeper you're a bellend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Long and Benteke have better build up play? f***ing pack it in man. Dzecko, Giroud, Lukaku are highly debatable too. Ridiculous. Long reminds me of Bellamy plenty, a terror to teams even If he doesn't score. Benteke is a no brainer. He's a target man ffs of course his build play is better than Cisse's. Good in the air, holds it up well, works the channels, comes short. Come on. You can launch the ball long at the other 3 and there's half a chance they could do something. Dzeko build up is nowhere comparable to Cisse man. Giroud too, he's very much a team player. Lukaku I haven't seen loads of. Forgot about Berbatov. Long reminds me more of someone like Andy Johnson like, but whatever, liken him to Bellamy if it makes the argument sound better. Being a target man doesn't exactly mean "mint build up play" either like, what about if the play starts on the half way line as opposed to the oppositions box? Or infact if the football is just on the floor? You seem to have it in you're mind that Cisse is some kind of poacher and you're completely wrong, he played out on the wing for a large portion of the season and although he clearly isn't a winger he was more than capable linking up play. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Andy Johnson is also a selfless runner, works the channels well. Are you trying to tell me, Cisse is better outside the box, on the halfway line, whatever than Dzeko? Lukaku? And Giroud? Seriously? We aren't Barcelona man. We NEED a striker that can be an out-ball, either holding it up, linking others, or running it. Howay man he was shit offensively on the wing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Even Andy fucking Johnson. I didn't want to bring up players not in Cisse's league but he's definitely better in the build-up. Gouffran too while we at it. So much more involved in the game than Cisse EVER has. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 He needs to get his act together, he was piss poor today. Alright, all strikers go on a bit of a dry run but his touch, positioning, movement were all lacking to certain degrees and we literally have nobody else worthy of starting upfront (until we sign a proper right-forward to free up Gouffran). It's just not good enough at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 He needs to get his act together, he was p*ss poor today. Alright, all strikers go on a bit of a dry run but his touch, positioning, movement were all lacking to certain degrees and we literally have nobody else worthy of starting upfront (until we sign a proper right-forward to free up Gouffran). It's just not good enough at the moment. Howay man, his build up play is only bettered by a select few in the division according to some. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pilko Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 He needs to get his act together, he was p*ss poor today. Alright, all strikers go on a bit of a dry run but his touch, positioning, movement were all lacking to certain degrees and we literally have nobody else worthy of starting upfront (until we sign a proper right-forward to free up Gouffran). It's just not good enough at the moment. Howay man, his build up play is only bettered by a select few in the division according to some. They must have had about five times the amount of pints that I've had then, because that's just completely false. His first touch is erratic at best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 No one has said he was good today so yous can stop taliking shit if yous don't mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duo Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I think we can only really judge him this season once Ba left. Up until that point he played many games out wide in a position he was unfamiliar with and clearly uncomfortable with. The lack of goals as a result is clearly on his mind as he seems to be snapping at his chances. But he is still creating chances and I am convinced the goals with start flying in before the season is out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 All strikers have a dry spell - even Shearer was coming under the spotlight before the 1996 Euros and he finished top scorer. He also had a poor spell just before SBR arrived, but Bobby put that right... Read the last 4 words...Bobby told Shearer that he was not getting into the positions he needed to in order to score and what happened? 5 goals for him in the next game v Sheff Weds... The problem with Cisse is not as simple - he IS having to do more donkey work outside the box, but so did Shearer. SBR helped Shearer by signing Gallacher(stop gap) and then Bellamy and all was well. With the current style of play, Cisse is basically isolated - he is having to come back too deep in order to get the ball and whilst his hold-up play was better yesterday, that is not his prime purpose. Once Gouffran went off, the problem was worse and we basically lost the game from that time. Our forward m/f players are too static when our defenders win the ball - they should be making runs a la' Gouffran in order to create options for passing to a man in space...this has been a problem ALL season until Sissoko did it against Chelsea last week. Guttierez is one of the culprits because he is spending too much time propping defenders up. I am beginning to think that Cisse is something of an enigma - something midway between the player of last season and this. He is not getting many chances in the box and is beginning to snatch at the ones he does get because he knows there won't be many. He lacks real pace so will never threaten defenders on the break unless put in by someone else's cross or shot and he isn't great at winning the ball in the air with his back to goal....that is not to say he wouldn't score goals in another team...or under a different manager. We have to remember that he will be 28 next birthday - the time when a striker should be at his peak and he won't improve after that. Time will tell.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy Chibas Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 All strikers have a dry spell - even Shearer was coming under the spotlight before the 1996 Euros and he finished top scorer. He also had a poor spell just before SBR arrived, but Bobby put that right... Read the last 4 words...Bobby told Shearer that he was not getting into the positions he needed to in order to score and what happened? 5 goals for him in the next game v Sheff Weds... The problem with Cisse is not as simple - he IS having to do more donkey work outside the box, but so did Shearer. SBR helped Shearer by signing Gallacher(stop gap) and then Bellamy and all was well. With the current style of play, Cisse is basically isolated - he is having to come back too deep in order to get the ball and whilst his hold-up play was better yesterday, that is not his prime purpose. Once Gouffran went off, the problem was worse and we basically lost the game from that time. Our forward m/f players are too static when our defenders win the ball - they should be making runs a la' Gouffran in order to create options for passing to a man in space...this has been a problem ALL season until Sissoko did it against Chelsea last week. Guttierez is one of the culprits because he is spending too much time propping defenders up. I am beginning to think that Cisse is something of an enigma - something midway between the player of last season and this. He is not getting many chances in the box and is beginning to snatch at the ones he does get because he knows there won't be many. He lacks real pace so will never threaten defenders on the break unless put in by someone else's cross or shot and he isn't great at winning the ball in the air with his back to goal....that is not to say he wouldn't score goals in another team...or under a different manager. We have to remember that he will be 28 next birthday - the time when a striker should be at his peak and he won't improve after that. Time will tell.... His shooting efficiency at the tail-end last year was an anomoly. The truth sits somewhere inbetween, and in Germany he was usually near the top of the said shooting efficiency charts. The greatest indicator of an in-form striker isn't necessarily physical one. Cisse's movement off-the-ball still looks pretty sharp. The snapping at chances is a signal of a striker who has lost his awareness of space around him (how close defenders actually are). This internal compass is off centre, and when this compass is onsong they're acutely aware of that little bit of extra time they have to pull the trigger. It might just be a few frames, in real time and it's a fine line, however it's the difference between snapping at chance & actually taking a touch (to get balanced), or getting his centre of gravity/body positioning/weight transferance just right when hitting a first-time shot. Cisse has spent too much time this season isolated, back-to-goal, often forced into physical contests (for 50/50 balls, at best) with big athletic PL centrehalves. The consequence of this: his strikers' internal compass (awareness of space) is way off centre atm. I know he's found his way on to the scoresheets recently, but he still has the look of a striker who is hearing footsteps, and looks rushed in front of goal as a result. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Half the time Ba was here he played upfront. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 His shooting boots just aren't there at the moment but that will change. My concern is that he offers nothing when he's not scoring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I can't agree with that. Since Ba has gone I think his link up play has been very good for the most part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 All strikers have a dry spell - even Shearer was coming under the spotlight before the 1996 Euros and he finished top scorer. He also had a poor spell just before SBR arrived, but Bobby put that right... Read the last 4 words...Bobby told Shearer that he was not getting into the positions he needed to in order to score and what happened? 5 goals for him in the next game v Sheff Weds... The problem with Cisse is not as simple - he IS having to do more donkey work outside the box, but so did Shearer. SBR helped Shearer by signing Gallacher(stop gap) and then Bellamy and all was well. With the current style of play, Cisse is basically isolated - he is having to come back too deep in order to get the ball and whilst his hold-up play was better yesterday, that is not his prime purpose. Once Gouffran went off, the problem was worse and we basically lost the game from that time. Our forward m/f players are too static when our defenders win the ball - they should be making runs a la' Gouffran in order to create options for passing to a man in space...this has been a problem ALL season until Sissoko did it against Chelsea last week. Guttierez is one of the culprits because he is spending too much time propping defenders up. I am beginning to think that Cisse is something of an enigma - something midway between the player of last season and this. He is not getting many chances in the box and is beginning to snatch at the ones he does get because he knows there won't be many. He lacks real pace so will never threaten defenders on the break unless put in by someone else's cross or shot and he isn't great at winning the ball in the air with his back to goal....that is not to say he wouldn't score goals in another team...or under a different manager. We have to remember that he will be 28 next birthday - the time when a striker should be at his peak and he won't improve after that. Time will tell.... His shooting efficiency at the tail-end last year was an anomoly. The truth sits somewhere inbetween, and in Germany he was usually near the top of the said shooting efficiency charts. The greatest indicator of an in-form striker isn't necessarily physical one. Cisse's movement off-the-ball still looks pretty sharp. The snapping at chances is a signal of a striker who has lost his awareness of space around him (how close defenders actually are). This internal compass is off centre, and when this compass is onsong they're acutely aware of that little bit of extra time they have to pull the trigger. It might just be a few frames, in real time and it's a fine line, however it's the difference between snapping at chance & actually taking a touch (to get balanced), or getting his centre of gravity/body positioning/weight transferance just right when hitting a first-time shot. Cisse has spent too much time this season isolated, back-to-goal, often forced into physical contests (for 50/50 balls, at best) with big athletic PL centrehalves. The consequence of this: his strikers' internal compass (awareness of space) is way off centre atm. I know he's found his way on to the scoresheets recently, but he still has the look of a striker who is hearing footsteps, and looks rushed in front of goal as a result. Cracking post Chibas :thup: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Cisse needs someone right behind him doing the back to goal stuff, and threading balls through, while he hangs off the shoulder of the last defender. Sissoko was meant to be doing it but seemed to lack the energy yesterday, Pardew maybe could have changed the game by switching Sissoko and Cabaye's positions, Cabaye who was livelier may have given Cisse some more opportunities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimburst Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 TBF this is basically a new system (4231) because up until we bought Gouffran and Sissoko, we didn't have players capable of playing it. Now we've played with these lads three times, against 2 champions league teams and a relegation candiate, and got 6 points, looking vastly improved. Once the formation and players are bedded in, I think we'll actually start forming proper chances for Cisse more regularly. Once that happens, if he still can't finish when given chances, I'll hold my hands up and say he's shite. If not, I reckon we've still got a top class striker who will come good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy Chibas Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Half the time Ba was here he played upfront. I'm not disputing, or trying to use a few games (where he was deployed on the wing) as the underlying cause behind his missing shooting boots - in this case imho is a lack of composure in front of goal. The way Pardew has used him (which is better suited to Ba's physical gifts, and as pairing this season they never fed off one another in the final 1/3) upfront, with the type of delivery fed forward, has borne consequence It will take more than just one day a week in training (ie working on each attacking element of the team's play) to correct/restore what Cisse has lost this year. I think we're relying too much on the players' (particularly Carr's continental assembly of well schooled technical types) prior football education & individual brilliance, and with this a capability make an immediate impact hot off the plane, to push this team forward. Age-wise Cisse isn't at the stage of a career where it basically falls apart in the space of 6 months and his game isn't reliant Ba-like power, and his record in the Bundesliga isn't exactly indicative of Carr falling in love with a one season wonder. Bundesliga form is usually good form ie. high quality technical football, coupled with a tempo & pace which is comparable to the PL For a club that want's to unearth & develop young technical players, ala Arsenal, we're backing the wrong horse in Pardew ie. as the figurehead & coaching whiz needed to drive the programe forward As a footballer standalone, with a football brain, i have faith in Cisse with the right management & coaching philosophies/methods etc guiding him. As for Pardew's ability to extract the full potential of Carr's targets, and this includes the continued development of the early 20's like Anita & Moussa (and i mean mid to long term,beyond a dream home debut) i don't share the same level of optimism. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATB Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Looking were he is when he get the balls and were the rest of the team is I can´t understand the critic he gets. He has missed chances that he should score with, but it´s not that many chances he has got. Since the french lads came in our play has improved a lot and I think Cissé has improved too and been really good without the ball. The problem is though that he´s so deep. If that´s him or how we are set up I don´t know, I´m going with the second choice. We have improved but we are still lacking so much movement and you can easily see how important Goffran is to us. I would say that right now he is the most important player we got with his runs, he´s just so smart on the pitch. Look at that goal he scored for example. How many players in our team would have taken that position and done that run? That´s one criticism I can give Cisse, that´s he´s not the smartest player all the time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Half the time Ba was here he played upfront. I'm not disputing, or trying to use a few games (where he was deployed on the wing) as the underlying cause behind his missing shooting boots - in this case imho is a lack of composure in front of goal. The way Pardew has used him (which is better suited to Ba's physical gifts, and as pairing this season they never fed off one another in the final 1/3) upfront, with the type of delivery fed forward, has borne consequence It will take more than just one day a week in training (ie working on each attacking element of the team's play) to correct/restore what Cisse has lost this year. I think we're relying too much on the players' (particularly Carr's continental assembly of well schooled technical types) prior football education & individual brilliance, and with this a capability make an immediate impact hot off the plane, to push this team forward. Age-wise Cisse isn't at the stage of a career where it basically falls apart in the space of 6 months and his game isn't reliant Ba-like power, and his record in the Bundesliga isn't exactly indicative of Carr falling in love with a one season wonder. Bundesliga form is usually good form ie. high quality technical football, coupled with a tempo & pace which is comparable to the PL For a club that want's to unearth & develop young technical players, ala Arsenal, we're backing the wrong horse in Pardew ie. as the figurehead & coaching whiz needed to drive the programe forward As a footballer standalone, with a football brain, i have faith in Cisse with the right management & coaching philosophies/methods etc guiding him. As for Pardew's ability to extract the full potential of Carr's targets, and this includes the continued development of the early 20's like Anita & Moussa (and i mean mid to long term,beyond a dream home debut) i don't share the same level of optimism. Agree - excellent post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Yesterday was a tough away game against a side that can run all day, pressure you and break quickly etc. it was always going to be difficult to get the ball and keep it long enough to create proper chances for Cisse. FWIW I don't think we should be constantly judging and assessing Cisse after every single game. We know what he can do and what he's not suited to. In a game where we can control possession more he is an absolutely lethal striker who will score plenty of goals. In games when we only have scrappy possession he will always struggle a bit, in the same way that other similar strikers do. In those games we need an edge from our other forwards and players like Sissoko and Cabaye. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 I'm not claiming he's not a good striker or a poor finisher. I just don't think he offers enough to the team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 You look at Gouff and you see how influential he was, even without the goal he was causing them trouble and helping the team get up and forward. We never get that from Cisse and it's not good enough. Someone made a Shearer linkage with goal scoring form. Thing is, Alan Shearer was an all-rounder. You could pump it up to him to hold it up or flick it on, he ran the channels, he was an excellent crosser. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATB Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Of course he´s no Shearer, but he´s a completely different player. You can´t play long high balls to Cissé. Would you do that to Messi too and then complain that he can´t compete in the air? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themanupstairs Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 You look at Gouff and you see how influential he was, even without the goal he was causing them trouble and helping the team get up and forward. We never get that from Cisse and it's not good enough. Someone made a Shearer linkage with goal scoring form. Thing is, Alan Shearer was an all-rounder. You could pump it up to him to hold it up or flick it on, he ran the channels, he was an excellent crosser. Not true man! Cisse took away two markers, and that's what helped Gouffran find the space for his goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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