Alan Pardew

[Away Toon]

Ask Kenwright, I've no fucking idea. Why do people want to argue about the indefensible? Even if you can find an excuse for the results this season, surely nobody can defend the negative aimless horrible football we play.

[Stu]

You're the one who stated that any other owner would have sacked his manager for being "down at the bottom with us" - the Moyes example is one that contradicts your claim (and has been mentioned recently in the thread).

 

I don't think anyone has argued that we're playing beautiful football this season. Not sure why you're throwing that straw man about.

 

Some of us see a benefit for the club in adopting a culture of giving managers 3+ seasons before deciding if they're going to get a longer spell. It may well turn out that Pardew is as limited as many on here are claiming and that last season was a freak set of results; however, by moving away from the knee-jerk culture of the past decade surely makes us a more attractive position for a bold, up and coming manager who knows he'll need a couple of seasons to get the playing squad playing exactly how he likes it?

 

Chopping and changing didn't do us any favours under Shepherd; it certainly didn't do us any favours under Ashley (2009), so why keep pushing this strategy now?

 

Of course, we wouldn't need to change managers if the people in charge appointed the 'right one' first time around...but then, if it was that easy, every team would be doing it.

[Wullie]

Haven't got the foggiest idea why Moyes is always brought up when there's dozens of examples of managers who've had a decent season at some point in their career then gone to shit.

 

How is the Moyes situation even vaguely comparable? Other than Rooney still in nappies, the squad was a right load of old toss for a start.

[mrmojorisin75]

Mick's post pretty much sums it up for me. I don't believe that he's a good manager particularly, and don't think he will improve. We have some good players, playing the least entertaining football in the Premier League. Not only is it horrible to watch, we are in serious danger of being relegated. With any other owner (one who hadn't given his manager a 8 year contract) he'd have been sacked, as have lots of other managers down at the bottom with us.

 

So why didn't Kenwright sack Moyes in the season they finished 17th?

 

moyes has more or less been forced to operate on scraps since he went there, in his first 2-3 years he had nothing like the backing and quality players pardew has had in his time here imo...even young rooney was sold before he had much chance of an impact

 

also, touching on what mick has said, prior to everton moyes progess was all upward unless i'm mistaken...preston manager right? so they've backed him on their belief in him and his short upward track record, pardew has a decade behind him which some people are writing off as irrelevant...well if his managerial record is irrelevant then using moyes as an example to back him is surely even more irrelevant?

[Wullie]

Mick's post pretty much sums it up for me. I don't believe that he's a good manager particularly, and don't think he will improve. We have some good players, playing the least entertaining football in the Premier League. Not only is it horrible to watch, we are in serious danger of being relegated. With any other owner (one who hadn't given his manager a 8 year contract) he'd have been sacked, as have lots of other managers down at the bottom with us.

 

So why didn't Kenwright sack Moyes in the season they finished 17th?

 

Because he wasn't given a team full of expensive internationals probably. Of course any other club would have sacked a manager performing this poorly with these players.

 

You've fucking changed your tune since you said two months ago that we should be winning every single game. Now we're losing every game but that's still deemed ok.

[mrmojorisin75]

The lack of goals from set plays is a big marker of his shortcomings. How hard is it to sort out some imaginative/effective set pieces?

 

What can Pardew do about that? I mean he does them in training but what can he do if the players simply don't score from them/defend them properly in a match?

 

 

What can he do? How about his job

 

 

I was being sarcastic Just using the ridiculous line of reasoning that Pardews lovers

if they are going to call people Pardew "haters"

use to excuse a whole manner of his failings to show how absurd it is.

 

pardew gets an insane amount of leeway from some people like, 3 points off relegation 7 games to go 

 

At the same time, people have quickly written off the fact he took us to the last game of the season away from a Champions League spot.

 

One great season, one s*** season. I'm in the camp where I think he has earned the chance to put it right. If we're still struggling come October or November next season, he deserves to be sacked. If we're back challenging the top 6, we were right to stand by him.

 

Spot on.  I think the thread should be closed on that post.

 

What concerns me is even last season how many games were fans saying that the tactics were not right within a lot of games - I can think of a number of games when wonder strikes won games after being second best within the actual game. I just see the same basic mistakes and poor tactical line ups and plans being used game after game. His overall record at a management level is not very good either and we look like conceding against any opposition no mater what formation or players we have played. If I had been able to see any sign of errors being addressed or problem areas being worked on I would agree but it's just not happening and that has to be down to the coaching standards as the same things have been ongoing all season long.

 

this is me down to a tee, i was saying this exact thing last season when things were going well along with Tron and a few others and haven't changed my stance

 

i'd can him if it was my call but i'm not rabid about it, i agree that if we stay up and he gets some more quality players we'll have a better season next year (could hardly be worse), so let's keep him by all means...but i hope everyone is prepared for the same gameplan

 

again i reiterate that what makes a good/great manager is success in the face of adversity, to pull results out when everything is against you, and if this season has proven anything it's that pardew can not do this, not even close

[Stu]

I said we 'could' be winning the most of our games during the run in. I was assuming a fairly fit squad to choose from, mind. Did not envisage having to play Simpson.

[Pata]

You're the one who stated that any other owner would have sacked his manager for being "down at the bottom with us" - the Moyes example is one that contradicts your claim (and has been mentioned recently in the thread).

 

I don't think anyone has argued that we're playing beautiful football this season. Not sure why you're throwing that straw man about.

 

Some of us see a benefit for the club in adopting a culture of giving managers 3+ seasons before deciding if they're going to get a longer spell. It may well turn out that Pardew is as limited as many on here are claiming and that last season was a freak set of results; however, by moving away from the knee-jerk culture of the past decade surely makes us a more attractive position for a bold, up and coming manager who knows he'll need a couple of seasons to get the playing squad playing exactly how he likes it?

 

Chopping and changing didn't do us any favours under Shepherd; it certainly didn't do us any favours under Ashley (2009), so why keep pushing this strategy now?

 

Of course, we wouldn't need to change managers if the people in charge appointed the 'right one' first time around...but then, if it was that easy, every team would be doing it.

 

Totally agree.

[mrmojorisin75]

I said we 'could' be winning the most of our games during the run in. I was assuming a fairly fit squad to choose from, mind. Did not envisage having to play Simpson.

 

in pardew's defence i'll admit that HBA not returning must have been a massive blow, i think him and sissoko could seriously tear it up and it might have changed our fortunes had he returned when expected

 

but then it's his job to work around that and he hasn't succeeded

[Wullie]

Most of the other Premier League teams seem to manage to win away games without Ben Arfa. We treat it as if it's the only possible way such a feat can be achieved.

 

Not sure how much effect Simpson had in the standard away defeats at Swansea, Wigan and Spurs. Looked pretty much the same without him as it has been with him - losing.

 

I don't believe Pardew could mastermind another away win regardless of who was fit. He didn't manage at the start of the season, nor really when he was bought half a new team. He did beat Villa though so fair play - suspect that'll be the "he finished 5th" next season, the "magic" win over Aston Villa.

[Stu]

Mick's post pretty much sums it up for me. I don't believe that he's a good manager particularly, and don't think he will improve. We have some good players, playing the least entertaining football in the Premier League. Not only is it horrible to watch, we are in serious danger of being relegated. With any other owner (one who hadn't given his manager a 8 year contract) he'd have been sacked, as have lots of other managers down at the bottom with us.

 

So why didn't Kenwright sack Moyes in the season they finished 17th?

 

moyes has more or less been forced to operate on scraps since he went there, in his first 2-3 years he had nothing like the backing and quality players pardew has had in his time here imo...even young rooney was sold before he had much chance of an impact

 

£8.5m in his first full season

£5m in his second season

£17.5m in his third season (*sold Rooney)

£9m in his fourth season

£15m in his fifth season

£23m in his sixth season

[Pata]

Most of the other Premier League teams seem to manage to win away games without Ben Arfa. We treat it as if it's the only possible way such a feat can be achieved.

 

Not sure how much effect Simpson had in the standard away defeats at Swansea, Wigan and Spurs. Looked pretty much the same without him as it has been with him - losing.

 

Injuries are a lame excuse but we have been hit really hard this season. We've been shite and Pardew has been at fault but the injuries have really played a massive part too.

[mrmojorisin75]

£8.5m in his first full season

£5m in his second season

£17.5m in his third season (*sold Rooney)

£9m in his fourth season

£15m in his fifth season

£23m in his sixth season

 

so as i said, not a lot then really in PL terms....if memory serves they weren't doing too great when he took over either and he didn't have the greatest squad to start with

 

later spending has seen them further up the league challenging for europe every season no?

[Pata]

You could argue that Pardew didn't have the greatest squad either when he took over.

[mrmojorisin75]

You could argue that Pardew didn't have the greatest squad either when he took over.

 

you certainly could

[Stu]

Most of the other Premier League teams seem to manage to win away games without Ben Arfa. We treat it as if it's the only possible way such a feat can be achieved.

 

Not sure how much effect Simpson had in the standard away defeats at Swansea, Wigan and Spurs. Looked pretty much the same without him as it has been with him - losing.

 

The Simpson point was to highlight how the 'depth' of January was no longer present by March. It wasn't to blame him.

 

Going back to that Chelsea game and the 'momentum' we'd generated, lets take that as our 'first choice starting XI' for the rest of the season:

 

vs Chelsea: Krul; Debuchy, Santon, Colocinni, Taylor; PerchTiote, Cabaye; Jonas, Gouffran, Sissoko; Cisse

 

Subbing Tiote for Perch (as I think most people, including Pardew, would do similar if both available), these are the first XI players unavailable:

 

L vs Spurs: n/a

W vs Southampton: Krul

L vs Swansea: Krul, Colocinni

W vs Stoke: Krul, Colocinni

L vs Wigan: Krul, Colocinni, Cabaye, Debuchy*

L vs Man City: Krul, Colocinni, Debuchy, Santon, Tiote

 

Missing the best two defensive players is going to affect any team, particularly one where the manager has spent the last two years getting those two players to carry out his defensive instructions on the field. They're pretty big blows to deal with.

 

Yes, we have had 'international' players to fill in for them, but they've hardly had a settled run in the team, let alone the league/country to suddenly gel with the new players.

 

I think if we lose Krul or Colo, then we suffer but can cope with having Eliott or MYM step in to replace but not both at the same time and the results/performances would suggest similar. The types of goals we've conceded are scruffy, disorganised goals rather than clear cut chances - perhaps suggesting that our general defensive play isn't too bad, but we're failing to communicate very well or individuals aren't doing the basics throughout the match; something that occurs when a back-five isn't settled.

 

To contrast that to the beginning of 2011/12 when we kept things tight, we were playing the same back five (or seven if you include the centre-mids) almost week in, week out. This gave us the platform for our attacking players to get a goal and the away wins.

[mrmojorisin75]

so that's it then Stu, he just gets a pass when the good players are injured?  i see your point but you're steadfastly ignoring the fact that it's his job to work around these things

[Wullie]

If we can only avoid defeat when we have less than two first team injuries, that's a fairly sure fire sign that we will continue to struggle.

 

That simply doesn't happen very often in the modern game. If your confidence that we should win every game apart from Man City was based on us having zero injuries, I can only assume you live on a cloud somewhere, or up a magic beanstalk.

[Zero]

I find it hilarious when people said "with the back of Ashley / with such a talented squad" when the truth is we only have this "tremendous squad" for just 2 months. We are fucking lack of quality covers and we have been fuming at Ashley for not spending his penny and just target for profits. So just 2.5 months after January everybody now said Pardew are wasting the resources.

 

Please.

[merlin]

There is no need of the stray opinions of some posters. Its obvious there is a Pardew "out" is not good enough and a Pardew "In" because he has a good an bad season group.

 

Pardew himself will show you in time who is the fool, couple of crucial games might cut his Pro group out cold or a very Good Season Next will change the Anti fans into Pardew supports.

 

Just hold your hands up when you are the fool. Opinions normally defer but there is always a right and wrong group.

 

The thing is, nobody is right or wrong.  It will not change how bad this season has been if we do well next season and last season will not become worse than it was because of this season.

 

Is he a good manager or a one season wonder?  Some think he's a good manager based on one season while others think he's a poor manager based on what he’s done here and most of his managerial career which has been more lows than highs.  Personally, I've seen very little during his time here to think he can do anything more than stagnate and fluke the odd decent result/league finish.

 

We simply haven’t progressed as a team under him other than our league position last year which was more often than not based on some negative football and tactics.  I know this has been done to death but it shouldn’t be forgotten.  He spends 4 out of 5 days coaching the team to defend and we’re about as bad as it gets in this division, even if somebody on here tries to disregard some goals conceded.  Our defence includes an international keeper, an international left back, an international right back and two international centre backs if fit and played together.  Our midfield can contain 5 international players and our main forward plays for his country.

 

I see no reason to believe that a team which can contain 11 internationals aren’t better than what we’ve seen this season and I’ve seen nothing to make me believe that our manager is playing the type of football that best suits our players.  I don’t think we have a single player who thrives with us sitting back as often as we do and I can only put that down to Pardew. 

 

I would guess that our lowest international player count this season doesn’t go below 50% yet teams who would struggle to field that many on a good day are doing better than we are.

 

I’m sick of the excuses that he and others come out with on his behalf.  We aren’t a team that should be looking to scrape enough points to stay in the division with 7 games remaining and it’s a massive waste of the players in our squad.

 

What is our playing style?  Do we have anything as a team that anybody could call a strength?  I’d fail to answer either of those questions and he’s been here for something like 2 ½ seasons and that’s p*ss poor. 

 

I don’t see anything to suggest that he’s going to change, he’s got a personal comfort zone and he’ll stick to it because it’s all that he knows and that’s a problem because his idea of how football should be played doesn’t match what our players are good at or comfortable with.  He’ll dabble from time to time and it will fail more often than not because the players aren’t used to it under him as we don’t seem to work on it.

 

If we’re going to do well on a constant basis then he’s going to have to change and I’m not sure that he’s capable or comfortable enough to see it through.  If he’s going to change then it will have to be what we work on at the start of the season and we would have to stick with it.  Again, I can’t see any evidence of that being likely to happen and for that reason I will see next season as more than likely being another wasted season if he's still at the club.

 

The excuses used this season by Mr Negativity just don’t add up.  The reasons he uses for excuses aren’t enough for a 5th placed team to become a 15th placed team yet some are falling for it.  If people want to fall for the s*** he comes out with then so be it, ignorance can be bliss but it will not change where we are and how poorly we’ve played.

 

If people think he’s the right manager for us, why?  What makes him right for us?  Don’t use the shitty argument that we can’t do better than him because that’s bollocks.  The argument that he’s going to suddenly have us playing free flowing attacking football is pie in the sky and baseless.

 

 

This is a great post Mick - sums up everything I feel about Pardew as a manager.

I just cannot believe that some people think he's suddenly going to turn into SAF because he had one successful season...and as you say, the football was often awful and we rode our luck spectacularly...we also got lucky with Cisse who almost single-handedly got us into the EL with his goals.

 

As I have said before, I was prepared to give him a chance when he arrived at SJP but I had major reservations about his past record, and I know that former senior members of the club were warned that he would perform exactly as he has, by some of his former employers.

He has shown absolutely NOTHING in either the team tactics and now, frighteningly, in his player motivation, to give anyone confidence that he will improve things, even with a much better squad than we had last season. The number of silly statements he comes out with merely make matters worse and Benfica rammed some of those right back down his throat.

 

As for people quoting Moyes, Kenwright had to stick with him because Everton were much poorer as a club then than we are now - Moyes NEVER had millions thrown at him in his second full season as Pardew has here.

Moyes also had a decent record at PNE before he joined Everton and was a younger manager - there is no comparison in the 2 situations.

[merlin]

 

 

agree- the ones wanting him sacked now will start again with the next manager after 3 or 4 defeats.

 

That would depend on who he was replaced with but carry on being daft in an attempt to justify Pardew by making it look as if people only want shot of him because of 3 or 4 defeats.

 

Nobody - certainly not me - wanted KK out when he came back in 2008 and we struggled in his first 8 games.

We could see what he was trying to get the players to do, and it eventually came good...Pardew has been here for more than 2 years - can anyone see a similar effective and attractive style of play emerging under him...?? If a new manager was showing steady improvement NOBODY would want him out in his first season even if results weren't too great and this squad is capable of MUCH better football than we are seeing now.

Too many players under-achieveing under this regime.

[Stu]

If we can only avoid defeat when we have less than two first team injuries, that's a fairly sure fire sign that we will continue to struggle.

 

That simply doesn't happen very often in the modern game. If your confidence that we should win every game apart from Man City was based on us having zero injuries, I can only assume you live on a cloud somewhere, or up a magic beanstalk.

 

Again, that's twice you've gone putting words into my mouth...I've already corrected you once. I said that we could go on a good run towards the end of the season and that I viewed all of the games (with the exception of Citeh) as winnable games; given the state of the squad after the Chelsea game.

 

We don't just have two first team injuries....we've actually had:

 

L vs Spurs: Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Gouffran*

W vs Southampton: Krul, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Harper (Tiote ill prior to the game)

L vs Swansea: Krul, Colocinni, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Harper (Cisse and Cabaye were both ill prior to the game)

W vs Stoke: Krul, Colocinni, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic, Ameobi

L vs Wigan: Krul, Colocinni, Cabaye, Debuchy*, Haidaira*, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic

L vs Man City: Krul, Colocinni, Debuchy, Santon, Tiote, Haidaira, Ben Arfa, RTaylor, Vuckic

 

Injuries are by no means the sole reason for the poor results this season, but they go someway towards putting the season into context and explaining how the same guy (with arguably an improved squad on paper) has gone from a Champions League-chasing side to a 'squeaky bum' side.

[Stu]

so that's it then Stu, he just gets a pass when the good players are injured?  i see your point but you're steadfastly ignoring the fact that it's his job to work around these things

 

Injuries and squad management are part of the game. I would argue that Pardew has been hamstrung somewhat by the latter due to the severity of the former; nevertheless, some of his rotation decisions have been puzzling (to say the least), although I've formerly attributed that to his previous desire to try and keep his 'best striker' at the club.

[mrmojorisin75]

so that's it then Stu, he just gets a pass when the good players are injured?  i see your point but you're steadfastly ignoring the fact that it's his job to work around these things

 

Injuries and squad management are part of the game. I would argue that Pardew has been hamstrung somewhat by the latter due to the severity of the former; nevertheless, some of his rotation decisions have been puzzling (to say the least), although I've formerly attributed that to his previous desire to try and keep his 'best striker' at the club.

 

hm, i agree with you to an extent but there's no doubt in my mind he's failed to do his job in a lot of circumstances...credit for last season seems to be de rigeur atm so credit to him for managing williamson/simpson last season and getting some of the results he did but there's no excuse for this season imo

[Dr Venkman]

The lack of goals from set plays is a big marker of his shortcomings. How hard is it to sort out some imaginative/effective set pieces?

 

What can Pardew do about that? I mean he does them in training but what can he do if the players simply don't score from them/defend them properly in a match?

 

 

What can he do? How about his job

 

 

I was being sarcastic Just using the ridiculous line of reasoning that Pardews lovers

if they are going to call people Pardew "haters"

use to excuse a whole manner of his failings to show how absurd it is.

 

pardew gets an insane amount of leeway from some people like, 3 points off relegation 7 games to go 

 

At the same time, people have quickly written off the fact he took us to the last game of the season away from a Champions League spot.

 

One great season, one shit season. I'm in the camp where I think he has earned the chance to put it right. If we're still struggling come October or November next season, he deserves to be sacked. If we're back challenging the top 6, we were right to stand by him.

 

agree- the ones wanting him sacked now will start again with the next manager after 3 or 4 defeats.

 

Bollocks.

 

 

 

Tbf I don't think I can blamed for thinking you meant it, given the tone of your recent posts.

 

I'd love to know what is giving people optimism that Pardew's going to change his outlook and start turning us into a team just because it's a new season. He's not going to change, those hoping for a better season next year are just hoping for less injuries imo.