Beren Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I'm not really interested in aesthetics, I'm only interested in getting the best out of the players we have. A direct style when we played with Barton, Carroll and Nolan I enjoyed watching because that was the style that suited our players - we created plenty of chances and scored plenty goals. I think we play far more long balls now than we did then and with players who clearly prefer it into feet and it clearly does not work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Collapse against Fulham with Best on the left, Shola CF and Guthrie instead of Tiote...... First time we used 4-3-3 wasn't it. The best footballing (first) half we played all season that was. We had experimented with it a few times i think, used against QPR too. It's quite obvious it only really works to optimal level with Ba,Cisse, Ben Arfa otherwise it falls down for obvious reasons. I'm not prepared to say Marveaux-Cisse-Ben Arfa won't ever work either though because it failed against Everton. It failed against Everton because we hoofed not sure how we can expect a front 3 based upon speed, movement, dribbling, passing to work when Williamson lumps the ball in the sky. This is why we need find a philosophy that fits the players we have because there's no point playing 4-3-3 if we are going to hoof it. Style of play > System > Players and then build the club around that style of play and system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 yep mentioned it a few post earlier we actually played 4-3-3/4-5-1 that game ironically, also remembered the collapse vs WBA and getting tonked by Wigan 4-0 That Wigan one was hard to take as we got raped. Was it Di Santo that scored that weird beast? dont remember who scored but it was definitely a filthy scoreline ive tryed best to forget but couldn't. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. It might be a contributing factor (which probably comes from spending so much time preparing for the opposition), however I think a lot of it is coached and instructed. Perhaps because Pardew wants the ball as far away from our goal as possible, as quickly as possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I'm not really interested in aesthetics, I'm only interested in getting the best out of the players we have. A direct style when we played with Barton, Carroll and Nolan I enjoyed watching because that was the style that suited our players - we created plenty of chances and scored plenty goals. I think we play far more long balls now than we did then and with players who clearly prefer it into feet and it clearly does not work. I have no issue with us playing more 'direct' football either but to do that you need a certain type of personnel and gameplan, at the moment we don't appear to have either. There is a difference between focused 'direct' and just hoying it 'long', at the moment we're the latter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. I find the idea that Pardew would specifically instruct the players to always just lump it forward to be significantly less probable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. Same. Williamson, Simpson and Cabaye are lesser players in our squad who do most of the long balls... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. I find the idea that Pardew would specifically instruct the players to always just lump it forward to be significantly less probable. He's stated in previous interviews that he likes for our midfielders to try and "hit the front men early". It's not much of a stretch from there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. I find the idea that Pardew would specifically instruct the players to always just lump it forward to be significantly less probable. I've added to my post, I think it's mainly due to his conservative and overly defensive approach tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Agree that some will never be happy. Think most would be if we fulfilled our potential. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Nah, the fundamental problem is that we spend little to no time coaching attacking play which results in the disjointed football seen for the vast majority of last season, and this season. This much is easy to decipher and has been more or less alluded to by the management. Surely everyone can agree that this is the fundamental problem with our poor play!? So essentially,unless Pardew changes his philosophy significantly the same problems will persist as long as Pardew is here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Agree that some will never be happy. Think most would be if we fulfilled our potential. What is our potential? With our current squad, that is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think it's very naive to believe that the players are playing it long against the manager's instructions and simply because they're incompetent. Cabaye and Colo both play significantly more long balls than Williamson and Simpson for a start, which I have been saying for months and months. It's clearly the way the manager wants to play, with the intention that the ball gets to our dangerous players as soon as possible and no-one's in any danger of being caught out of position. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Agree that some will never be happy. Think most would be if we fulfilled our potential. What is our potential? With our current squad, that is. Pardew said we could challenge 4th () so something between that and 8th. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Agree that some will never be happy. Think most would be if we fulfilled our potential. What is our potential? With our current squad, that is. First XI - challenging for top 5/6 Squad - challenging for top 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think it's very naive to believe that the players are playing it long against the manager's instructions and simply because they're incompetent. Cabaye and Colo both play significantly more long balls than Williamson and Simpson for a start, which I have been saying for months and months. It's clearly the way the manager wants to play, with the intention that the ball gets to our dangerous players as soon as possible and no-one's in any danger of being caught out of position. Where is this from btw? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. I find the idea that Pardew would specifically instruct the players to always just lump it forward to be significantly less probable. And yet Krul very rarely attempts to play it short, one of our coaches is quoted is saying 'we kicked it longer' after the defeat on the weekend and our own manager describes our style as 'fast, front-foot football', which is just code for get it into a dangerous area as quickly as possible. There are worse footballers and teams that play better than us, so blaming it on one or two individuals is simply unfair. The lack of movement is also to do with coaching and poor tactics. Some of our players (each one of our starting front 6) have previously played for sides with great movement, yet they're suddenly statues here? It doesn't add up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmk Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Agree that some will never be happy. Think most would be if we fulfilled our potential. What is our potential? With our current squad, that is. First XI - challenging for top 5/6 Squad - challenging for top 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. the worrying thing is problem of lack of movement is very much by design. The more movement the more holes you got in the team, Pardew does not like that. The are told to keep their shape and not move unless they have to. Our team only begins to move when its for the second ball straight after the long ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmk Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think there's a bit of a "Chicken/Egg" problem with the whole "only plays long balls" thing. I sincerely doubt that the players are specifically instructed to hoof it long. I think it's just that a lot of our less talented players end up reverting to that because overall movement off the ball is extremely poor so there's rarely an easy pass to pick out. The fundamental problem is a lack of movement and understanding between the players, everything stems from that. Find that very far fetched personally. I find the idea that Pardew would specifically instruct the players to always just lump it forward to be significantly less probable. And yet Krul very rarely attempts to play it short, one of our coaches is quoted is saying 'we kicked it longer' after the defeat on the weekend and our own manager describes our style as 'fast, front-foot football', which is just code for get it into a dangerous area as quickly as possible. There are worse footballers and teams that play better than us, so blaming it on one or two individuals is simply unfair. The lack of movement is also to do with coaching and poor tactics. Some of our players (each one of our starting front 6) have previously played for sides with great movement, yet they're suddenly statues here? It doesn't add up. Exactly, all the facts go against your beliefs Oldtype. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Agree that some will never be happy. Think most would be if we fulfilled our potential. What is our potential? With our current squad, that is. Pardew said we could challenge 4th () so something between that and 8th. If we played to the level we all know we can i don't see why it's funny... it's not like Spurs and Arsenal are miles ahead. We are just playing well below our level this season for a number of reasons which are well documented. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 I don't get it. What are we complaining about? Is it purely an aesthetics thing? Or, is it results driven? The thing is Inochi, IMO (and maybe this is where we diverge in footballing philosophy terms ), results eventually follow performances. It may take five games, it may take ten, it may take forty-eight () but a failure to address our inability/unwillingness to control games - particularly against weaker opposition (the Norwichs, QPRs, Wolves, Blackburns etc) will begin to effect results too, because any streak of results which isn't driven by performance is very, very vulnerable to a loss of momentum*. I fear for our immediate future. [* - except for those teams who wholeheartedly and unashamedly commit to grinding - ie. Stoke, who consequently also have a glass ceiling on how good they can ever be - something we do not want] Within reason, I just like to see us winning games and being successful. It's likely because of this that I'm not overly concerned with the particulars of last season. I don't particularly fear for our future, because the evidence is there, from our past, that we are well equipped to perform admirably in this league. I expect results and performances to improve. I do worry, however, that some will never be happy. Agree that some will never be happy. Think most would be if we fulfilled our potential. What is our potential? With our current squad, that is. First XI - challenging for top 5/6 Squad - challenging for top 10 I'm a little less inclined than Disco to ascribe definitive league placings to the squad's potential (far too many variables inside the squad and in the league etc ) but I'd say we have the platform (in terms of personnel/resource) to become a top 8 stalwart and a dark horse for cups. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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