Guest bimpy474 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 "and irrespective of mitigating circumstances" Well me listing plenty of reasons why they aren't mitigating over the last 6 months and even longer (you may not have seen them, dont recollect you before last week tbh). Some of us have looked at the reasons and dont feel they are good enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 There must be, I don't see how such a decent squad can perform so consistently badly. Our first 11 when all are fully fit would be the envy of 75% of the Premier league. Our second 11 would struggle to get out of the Championship. Stoke sent Shola back 5 years ago....and he's still our best threat from the bench. I think the injuries have helped Pardew's because in the fact, with everyone fit, I wouldnt trust him to select the right personnel. I don't think Sissoko or Cabaye have played in their natural positions since January, plus it seems he'll always find a spot for Jonas. He always will too. We've conceded less goals in the games Jonas plays. I hate to go back to the stats but I do like to back up what I say, so here goes.... If you look at how long each player has spent on the pitch, and how many goals were conceded when that player was on, then it's clear the value Pardew places in Jonas... Top 5 Gutierez - 58.9 minutes per goal conceded Cabaye - 57.9 Williamson - 55.9 S Taylor - 53.9 Ben Arfa - 53.6 When he got injured we immediately conceded 4 at Man U then 7 at Arsenal in the next 2 games The next time he missed any football was when he got dragged off against Liverpool. we were 2 nil down then....but we conceded 4 in the second half alone without him. Most would prefer our attacking players to be attacking of course, and Jonas has done nothing for us there. But it's clear where Pardew sees his value to the team, defensively. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 There must be, I don't see how such a decent squad can perform so consistently badly. Our first 11 when all are fully fit would be the envy of 75% of the Premier league. Our second 11 would struggle to get out of the Championship. Stoke sent Shola back 5 years ago....and he's still our best threat from the bench. I think the injuries have helped Pardew's because in the fact, with everyone fit, I wouldnt trust him to select the right personnel. I don't think Sissoko or Cabaye have played in their natural positions since January, plus it seems he'll always find a spot for Jonas. He always will too. We've conceded less goals in the games Jonas plays. I hate to go back to the stats but I do like to back up what I say, so here goes.... If you look at how long each player has spent on the pitch, and how many goals were conceded when that player was on, then it's clear the value Pardew places in Jonas... Gutierez - 58.9 minutes per goal conceded Cabaye - 57.9 Williamson - 55.9 S Taylor - 53.9 Ben Arfa - 53.6 When he got injured we immediately conceded 4 at Man U then 7 at Arsenal in the next 2 games The next time he missed any football was when he got dragged off against Liverpool. we were 2 nil down then....but we conceded 4 in the second half alone without him. Most would prefer our attacking players to be attacking of course, and Jonas has done nothing for us there. But it's clear where Pardew sees his value to the team, defensively. We conceded 7 against Arsenal because Pardew had a brain fart late on and left us with 1 central midfielder on the pitch and they cut through us like butter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 So ... any news on this potential coaching hire? This could actually be a good way to improve things if Pardew manages to hold on to the job. Just get a really good attack minded coach, who can deal more with that side of things. It would be a good move for many reasons, everything is too insular at the moment. Someone like Ginola maybe. Definitely the way to go, if he's staying. Bring in a forward thinking coach, well if Pardew listens to him, which i think he would actually. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Stats based deflecting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 We conceded 7 against Arsenal because Pardew had a brain fart late on and left us with 1 central midfielder on the pitch and they cut through us like butter. We'd conceded 4 before his first change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 There must be, I don't see how such a decent squad can perform so consistently badly. Our first 11 when all are fully fit would be the envy of 75% of the Premier league. Our second 11 would struggle to get out of the Championship. Stoke sent Shola back 5 years ago....and he's still our best threat from the bench. I think the injuries have helped Pardew's because in the fact, with everyone fit, I wouldnt trust him to select the right personnel. I don't think Sissoko or Cabaye have played in their natural positions since January, plus it seems he'll always find a spot for Jonas. He always will too. We've conceded less goals in the games Jonas plays. I hate to go back to the stats but I do like to back up what I say, so here goes.... If you look at how long each player has spent on the pitch, and how many goals were conceded when that player was on, then it's clear the value Pardew places in Jonas... Top 5 Gutierez - 58.9 minutes per goal conceded Cabaye - 57.9 Williamson - 55.9 S Taylor - 53.9 Ben Arfa - 53.6 When he got injured we immediately conceded 4 at Man U then 7 at Arsenal in the next 2 games The next time he missed any football was when he got dragged off against Liverpool. we were 2 nil down then....but we conceded 4 in the second half alone without him. Most would prefer our attacking players to be attacking of course, and Jonas has done nothing for us there. But it's clear where Pardew sees his value to the team, defensively. Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I didn't really need stats to figure out why Jonas plays tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Stats based deflecting. Ignore the little table and the numbers then. The point remains without them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 He's definitely conservative, I would aay his natural style would be too build a solid unit that the flair players could operate on top of. I don't think he hates all talented players and just loves cloggers. I think the argument between HF and Wullie is Flawed because the team selections by Pardew is constantly more conservative. His first eleven has a defensive approach, and his reluctance to drop some of the more defensive players and his insistence to sub the attacking players at nearly every game makes a compelling case. The case that he wants to build a solid unit before we are allowed to go on the offensive, this highly writes off putting the players on paper and using it as a argument because of his preference in his selection. So if we agree that he is more conservative, the next question is whether he could build a solid unit neutralizing opposition attacks. This is actually worth debating since , i dont think Pardew is that great organizing a defensive unit as well. Some of the flows of his games has been founded out and overall when we try to close teams down , we had not been effective from doing it. Pardew might be out of his dept in the defensive department as well base on the current performances. This is a worry... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 We conceded 7 against Arsenal because Pardew had a brain fart late on and left us with 1 central midfielder on the pitch and they cut through us like butter. We'd conceded 4 before his first change. And scored 3. Losing 4-3 is not any different to losing by the odd goal by any scoreline (which is about the difference Jonas would have made. We might have conceded less but definitely would have scored less as well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 There must be, I don't see how such a decent squad can perform so consistently badly. Our first 11 when all are fully fit would be the envy of 75% of the Premier league. Our second 11 would struggle to get out of the Championship. Stoke sent Shola back 5 years ago....and he's still our best threat from the bench. I think the injuries have helped Pardew's because in the fact, with everyone fit, I wouldnt trust him to select the right personnel. I don't think Sissoko or Cabaye have played in their natural positions since January, plus it seems he'll always find a spot for Jonas. He always will too. We've conceded less goals in the games Jonas plays. I hate to go back to the stats but I do like to back up what I say, so here goes.... If you look at how long each player has spent on the pitch, and how many goals were conceded when that player was on, then it's clear the value Pardew places in Jonas... Top 5 Gutierez - 58.9 minutes per goal conceded Cabaye - 57.9 Williamson - 55.9 S Taylor - 53.9 Ben Arfa - 53.6 When he got injured we immediately conceded 4 at Man U then 7 at Arsenal in the next 2 games The next time he missed any football was when he got dragged off against Liverpool. we were 2 nil down then....but we conceded 4 in the second half alone without him. Most would prefer our attacking players to be attacking of course, and Jonas has done nothing for us there. But it's clear where Pardew sees his value to the team, defensively. I find it worrying that a manager is so reliant on his left winger to not concede to 6 and 7 goal scorelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 People on here were generally heartened by our attacking play and endeavour in the Man Utd and Arsenal (first 70 minutes) matches. It was really the last 20 minutes against Arsenal which saw the opinion dramatically shift against Pardew whereas people had been patient with him on here before that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Because we shouldn't be deploying a player in an attacking position for his defensive duties, and because he's been utterly awful with the ball this year. We all know what his priorities are though don't we. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? It's also so obvious what he doesn't offer. Not that I think there is no use for him, I just don't think he should be starting 33 games a season and playing the full 90 in the vast majority of them when we look completely shot in attack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 I find it worrying that a manager is so reliant on his left winger to not concede to 6 and 7 goal scorelines. Indeed. Santon, Haidara or Ferguson are going to have to get their arses in gear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 He's definitely conservative, I would aay his natural style would be too build a solid unit that the flair players could operate on top of. I don't think he hates all talented players and just loves cloggers. I think the argument between HF and Wullie is Flawed because the team selections by Pardew is constantly more conservative. His first eleven has a defensive approach, and his reluctance to drop some of the more defensive players and his insistence to sub the attacking players at nearly every game makes a compelling case. The case that he wants to build a solid unit before we are allowed to go on the offensive, this highly writes off putting the players on paper and using it as a argument because of his preference in his selection. So if we agree that he is more conservative, the next question is whether he could build a solid unit neutralizing opposition attacks. This is actually worth debating since , i dont think Pardew is that great organizing a defensive unit as well. Some of the flows of his games has been founded out and overall i think where we try to close teams down , we had not been effective from doing it. Pardew might be out of his dept in the defensive department as well base on the current performances. This is a worry... If that last sentence comes to pass then obviously Pardew is finished. I think there are just about enough reasons (lack of preparation time, player form, lack of confidence, injuries etc) to postpone that conclusion for now. But obviously if he proves incapable of producing an organised unit longer term then he's doomed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Face Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. The evidence is there that we aren't better off for it. When he's been forcibly sacrificed we have conceded by the bucket load. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 There must be, I don't see how such a decent squad can perform so consistently badly. Our first 11 when all are fully fit would be the envy of 75% of the Premier league. Our second 11 would struggle to get out of the Championship. Stoke sent Shola back 5 years ago....and he's still our best threat from the bench. I think the injuries have helped Pardew's because in the fact, with everyone fit, I wouldnt trust him to select the right personnel. I don't think Sissoko or Cabaye have played in their natural positions since January, plus it seems he'll always find a spot for Jonas. He always will too. We've conceded less goals in the games Jonas plays. I hate to go back to the stats but I do like to back up what I say, so here goes.... If you look at how long each player has spent on the pitch, and how many goals were conceded when that player was on, then it's clear the value Pardew places in Jonas... Top 5 Gutierez - 58.9 minutes per goal conceded Cabaye - 57.9 Williamson - 55.9 S Taylor - 53.9 Ben Arfa - 53.6 When he got injured we immediately conceded 4 at Man U then 7 at Arsenal in the next 2 games The next time he missed any football was when he got dragged off against Liverpool. we were 2 nil down then....but we conceded 4 in the second half alone without him. Most would prefer our attacking players to be attacking of course, and Jonas has done nothing for us there. But it's clear where Pardew sees his value to the team, defensively. I find it worrying that a manager is so reliant on his left winger to not concede to 6 and 7 goal scorelines. This is exactly what I was getting at. In the same way Taggart selects Welbeck in the "harder" games. It is because he is the best defensive forward they have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Roger Kint Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 So ... any news on this potential coaching hire? This could actually be a good way to improve things if Pardew manages to hold on to the job. Just get a really good attack minded coach, who can deal more with that side of things. Peter Taylor wants to get back into coaching. Would be a decent shout to help Pardew and improve our development players too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 There must be, I don't see how such a decent squad can perform so consistently badly. Our first 11 when all are fully fit would be the envy of 75% of the Premier league. Our second 11 would struggle to get out of the Championship. Stoke sent Shola back 5 years ago....and he's still our best threat from the bench. I think the injuries have helped Pardew's because in the fact, with everyone fit, I wouldnt trust him to select the right personnel. I don't think Sissoko or Cabaye have played in their natural positions since January, plus it seems he'll always find a spot for Jonas. He always will too. We've conceded less goals in the games Jonas plays. I hate to go back to the stats but I do like to back up what I say, so here goes.... If you look at how long each player has spent on the pitch, and how many goals were conceded when that player was on, then it's clear the value Pardew places in Jonas... Top 5 Gutierez - 58.9 minutes per goal conceded Cabaye - 57.9 Williamson - 55.9 S Taylor - 53.9 Ben Arfa - 53.6 When he got injured we immediately conceded 4 at Man U then 7 at Arsenal in the next 2 games The next time he missed any football was when he got dragged off against Liverpool. we were 2 nil down then....but we conceded 4 in the second half alone without him. Most would prefer our attacking players to be attacking of course, and Jonas has done nothing for us there. But it's clear where Pardew sees his value to the team, defensively. I actually do agree Jonas involvement in the team, actually drastically reduces the amount of goals conceded. Watch the games closely , and he has done many important defensive last ditch defending. That been said the recent problems of the team is not just defensive one's which Pardew prides himself in, but also on the offensive end where we are performing below par. Performing as a unit, we are neither good defensively or great going forward, these are things that need to be address 1st. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilson Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Don't think he's wrong in playing him when fit, but he's not the right option for 90 minutes of every single game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted May 15, 2013 Share Posted May 15, 2013 Seriously? That's your conclusion? Could you come round mine tomorrow morning and let me know why I'm eating breakfast? I think it's because I'm hungry but I need some stats to prove it. If it's so obvious what Jonas offers, why do so many people say he's clearly wrong in playing him when fit? Think it's a question of whether people think the team needs his qualities or we would be better off sacrificing them for more attacking flair. The evidence is there that we aren't better off for it. When he's been forcibly sacrificed we have conceded by the bucket load. Again, down to the non existant transitional play. Attack or defend. The manager has to take the blame for this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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