Ched Evans - Not Guilty

[mrmojorisin75]

I don't understand why we're taking the jury's decision, or our legal system as a trusted or unquestioned proof of guilt. It's the fairest system but it's not without flaws and a history of mistakes.

 

Me neither, this is why the reaction from a lot of people (not this thread particularly) has p*ssed me off so much.

 

Well what else can we go on? his word/hers? it's the only quantifiable data.

That's the point though, do we really have to react to this at all? He's done his time and now he's free, nobody truly knows if he did actually rape her or not so any decision we make is still shrouded in doubt.

 

That's my point though, at this point the only thing that is certain is he was convicted. That's literally it. I have no idea what went down, but the only thing we know for sure is that he was convicted. 

 

i was semi-serious before mind, i reckon he'll get the conviction overturned personally

 

Next to no chance. Fresh evidence would probably be the only chance and he appears to have exhausted the sensible avenues for this at the Court of Appeal when he appealed against sentence and conviction. Court of appeal said the trial went as it should. CCRC won't do much at all unless something Earth shattering comes in.

 

he is taking it to a further appeal of some kind though isn't he?  sure i read that

 

CCRC = Criminal Cases Review Commission. Thats who he spoke about in his press release. Far more likely that was just posturing for prospective clubs than any legitimate belief of it going anywhere.  I'm pretty sure that the most they can do is refer cases to the Court of Appeal anyway.

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Agree with your sentiment Hans but shrouded in doubt is a bit strong.

 

Also if he wasn't a footballer then I don't think people would mind. Also if he wasn't a footballer I doubt his victim would have been compensated for her attack (I assume she sued him in the civil court post conviction, it literally couldn't have been easier for her to do).

 

I mean it's not going to sit right that someone who has been found guilty of an offence like this is able to live a life of privilege. But then if we strive to have equality before the law I'm not sure we should be making exceptions for footballers.

 

He wouldn't really be living a life of privilege, he'd be living whatever life was provided for from the income from the job he is now free to carry out. Just so happens his wages will be higher than most people.

 

Hes going to be a rich man, it sticks in the craw. Jesus 

 

I just thought privilege suggested he hadn't earned his money like anyone else.

 

I just believe in the principle of time served, it doesn't stuck in my craw more than anyone else going back to work really. I don't believe he permanently forfeits his right to work.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I feel like I need to know more about it to make a better decision but as it stands I'd leave it to each club to decide (obviously taking it as a flimsy given that they definitely want him for his football ability)

 

But assuming he's guilty, what would you say?

 

Debating whether or not you believe he did is a completely different discussion really. He's a convicted rapist.

Convicted doesn't necessarily mean as great a deal to me as absolute unflinching fact.

 

If he did it, in the way that's been explained, he should have the same employment rights as any other rapist that comes out of prison imo. No more and no less.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I feel like I need to know more about it to make a better decision but as it stands I'd leave it to each club to decide (obviously taking it as a flimsy given that they definitely want him for his football ability)

 

But assuming he's guilty, what would you say?

 

Debating whether or not you believe he did is a completely different discussion really. He's a convicted rapist.

Convicted doesn't necessarily mean as great a deal to me as absolute unflinching fact.

 

If he did it, in the way that's been explained, he should have the same employment rights as any other rapist that comes out of prison imo. No more and no less.

 

I agree with you, just wondered if the circumstances of the case are important to the conclusion.

 

I guess they are in that if he'd committed an even more serious crime that he would be doing 10 years and this debate wouldn't even come up. But beyond that I'm not sure.

[ElDiablo]

Yes.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I'm not saying I believe all drugs in themselves are evil. It's just like any product, you want the supply chain to be above board and exploitation free if you can help it. Which I imagine is very rare with anything other than small quantities of cannabis etc.

 

Anyway soz, slightly off the Ched topic.

[Kimbo]

No.

 

Being a professional footballer accounts for lot more than just holding a job at playing football. That's my opinion at least but I do respect that other people look at it in different terms. Indeed it wont help society nor offenders to ostracize or isolate people like Evans, but when you've committed a crime such as this some avenues of life and society should remain closed.

 

Jobs where he would be considered a risk are closed off to him, unless we think he's going to rape a teammate I don't think it applies.

That's not my point though. I'm not suggesting he poses a risk to his immediate surroundings or the persons he works with. For me it's a matter of principle. A convicted sex offender shouldn't, by way of his footballing talents, be granted a status as a role model. Which he undoubtedly will be whether we like it or not.

 

Are all footballers automatically role models, just because they play football professionally?

 

I've never understood the role model thing anyway, society doesn't pick role models, individuals do, and they usually pick someone that shares the same flaws, not perfect humans beings.

[Toondave]

I'm not saying I believe all drugs in themselves are evil. It's just like any product, you want the supply chain to be above board and exploitation free if you can help it. Which I imagine is very rare with anything other than small quantities of cannabis etc.

 

Anyway soz, slightly off the Ched topic.

 

Sort of hard when the government creates a black market.

[ponsaelius]

Jess Ennis didnae bother this much when they signed convicted sex offender Marlon King. Guess she doesn't follow the football that much.

 

edit: didn't even know King was back in the nick. What a fuck up that bloke is.

[Tachikoma]

I really don't like the idea that anyone who has committed a crime and been sent to jail can never, ever be punished enough for said crime. Why would anyone not just go back to crime, if its practically impossible to become reintegrated with law-abiding society?

[jdckelly]

I honestly don't know how I feel about this case, on the one hand there's the victim and how it must make her feel having this dragged up and put through the media court as it is atm on the other hand he did serve his time and his debt to society is repaid (assuming he keeps to whatever conditions there are for early release not entirely sure on them) so is he not entitled to get on with his life and career? Is that not the whole objective of the system to rehabilitate someone and reintegrate them into society? Voted yes but honestly really conflicted about the whole thing and the way its getting dragged through the media.

 

Regardless of what anyone thinks I'm almost certain some club will take a chance on him, football is not a place to look for strong moral convictions.

[afar]

I had not got a clue about this, until the beeb ran a story saying convicted rapist seeks a way back to football or something. Anyway I did a little bit of research.

 

The conviction is very very suspect imo. Especially when they found the other guy who was involved in the incident innocent. What was clear from what I read that here was a young girl who had had too much to drink, went to a hotel with one footballer, he called his mate (Evans) over to join in and she accepted it. The case seemed to hinge on how drunk she was and able to make decisions for herself. She stated that although she had a lot to drink, this was not out of the norm for her and she often drank a lot more. There was no force used here, it was consensual, the question was whether she was in a fit state to make the decision.

 

What went against Evans was really why the hell did you go to a room where your mate was shagging a girl and ask to join in ? He had a steady girlfriend, who amazingly is still with him. FFS, how difficult is it to get girls as a professional footballer ?? It was a stupid choice and he paid a big price for it.

 

The girl allegedly sent a few tweets that the Evans family got a hold of stating stuff like I'll buy you this or that "when I win big". If those tweets are real that casts some doubt on her character.

 

It's a really tough one to call, that's why I would question somewhat the jury on the trial since they the had to find him "beyond reasonable doubt" guilty. think personally from the stuff  I've read that there is too much doubt to convict the guy, his defence team did a lousy job really.

 

That's not to say that I think he was innocent, because him making a pre meditated decision to go to that hotel room was as stupid a decision anyone could make and his motivation to do so must have been huge something along the lines of his mate saying that this girl was wasted is entirely possible, if so then his mate should have been convicted as an accomplice to the crime iyam.

 

Anyway it's a really interesting case and people should serious think about this when they go out on their binge drinking nights, the UK is too famous for.

 

As far as playing again, I would say wait till the 2nd appeal they are apparently pursing, but a footballers career is so short, the appeal hearing could just take too long. Up to the individual clubs, other sports like the NFL are full of convicted criminals, football can decide if they want to follow that example.

 

[Tooj]

I had not got a clue about this, until the beeb ran a story saying convicted rapist seeks a way back to football or something. Anyway I did a little bit of research.

 

The conviction is very very suspect imo. Especially when they found the other guy who was involved in the incident innocent. What was clear from what I read that here was a young girl who had had too much to drink, went to a hotel with one footballer, he called his mate (Evans) over to join in and she accepted it. The case seemed to hinge on how drunk she was and able to make decisions for herself. She stated that although she had a lot to drink, this was not out of the norm for her and she often drank a lot more. There was no force used here, it was consensual, the question was whether she was in a fit state to make the decision.

 

What went against Evans was really why the hell did you go to a room where your mate was shagging a girl and ask to join in ? He had a steady girlfriend, who amazingly is still with him. FFS, how difficult is it to get girls as a professional footballer ?? It was a stupid choice and he paid a big price for it.

 

The girl allegedly sent a few tweets that the Evans family got a hold of stating stuff like I'll buy you this or that "when I win big". If those tweets are real that casts some doubt on her character.

 

It's a really tough one to call, that's why I would question somewhat the jury on the trial since they the had to find him "beyond reasonable doubt" guilty. think personally from the stuff  I've read that there is too much doubt to convict the guy, his defence team did a lousy job really.

 

That's not to say that I think he was innocent, because him making a pre meditated decision to go to that hotel room was as stupid a decision anyone could make and his motivation to do so must have been huge something along the lines of his mate saying that this girl was wasted is entirely possible, if so then his mate should have been convicted as an accomplice to the crime iyam.

 

Anyway it's a really interesting case and people should serious think about this when they go out on their binge drinking nights, the UK is too famous for.

 

As far as playing again, I would say wait till the 2nd appeal they are apparently pursing, but a footballers career is so short, the appeal hearing could just take too long. Up to the individual clubs, other sports like the NFL are full of convicted criminals, football can decide if they want to follow that example.

 

 

[Stottie]

If, like me, all you've heard is "Ched Evans-rapist", its worth reading the writeups other posters have linked because it is a very complicated case with some degree of doubt.

 

He may be guilty or he may be innocent, but as sex offenders go, Ched Evans will be getting far more attention and flak than he deserves. It would be better directed toward those who enabled Savile, the MP peado ring or those twats at Meadomsley.

 

 

[Tooj]

Still can't get my head round how if she was deemed too intoxicated to consent to anyform of sex, then how did Evans get convicted but the other one didn't? 

[brummie]

If, like me, all you've heard is "Ched Evans-rapist", its worth reading the writeups other posters have linked because it is a very complicated case with some degree of doubt.

 

He may be guilty or he may be innocent, but as sex offenders go, Ched Evans will be getting far more attention and flak than he deserves. It would be better directed toward those who enabled Savile, the MP peado ring or those twats at Meadomsley.

 

 

 

The thing is, no matter what we might think of the case, going by what we read in the press, the bloke is a convicted rapist. He was found guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, by a jury. There's no "may be" guilty about it - in the eyes of the law, he did it. Until a legal process takes place under which he clears his name, Ched Evans is a convicted rapist.

 

The fact that the woman was drunk doesn't in any way suggest it was any more acceptable - it is no excuse whatsoever.

 

My problem with Evans is, every time I have seen him on tv or read stuff he has said in the newspapers, he refers to it as "my infidelity" which his girlfriend has forgiven him for.  This sort of thing:

 

"Ched Evans: cheating on my girlfriend was unforgivable" - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/19/ched-evans-no-remorse-rape-woman

 

It wasn't "infidelity", it was rape.

 

There is nothing normal about this - two professional footballers have sex with a woman so drunk she can hardly stand up, whilst two other men watch.

 

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about whether Sheffield United should have him back, I can see both sides of the argument, but I find the creeping acceptance (and I don't mean anyone here, I mean in general) of what he did as in some way not actual rape more than a little bit unpleasant.

[Hanshithispantz]

Surely he has every right to call it infidelity though? Just because he was convicted in a court of law doesn't mean he has to accept it and I don't think there's enough evidence out there for us to say without any trepidation that "it was rape." The jury decided it was but that's hardly water tight.

 

If it is true though and she was in a state, although what he did would have been rape by the very definition of the word, there's a completely different mentality behind what he would have done and what we would usually classify as rape. I just don't think this is the monstrous crime it's been painted as in the media, it's been seen as rape (which again by the very definition of the word it would be) and that's that, Ched Evans is a RAPIST. Ched Evans is a monster etc.

 

Again I'm not trying to play down what he's done (if it's true), I just think for what he's been accused of he's served a sentence which more than covers for the crime and should be allowed to get on with his life. RAPIST though, it'll always stick, rightly or wrongly.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Still can't get my head round how if she was deemed too intoxicated to consent to anyform of sex, then how did Evans get convicted but the other one didn't? 

 

Presumably she admitted having sex with the other bloke?

[Guest Geordiesned]

If, like me, all you've heard is "Ched Evans-rapist", its worth reading the writeups other posters have linked because it is a very complicated case with some degree of doubt.

 

He may be guilty or he may be innocent, but as sex offenders go, Ched Evans will be getting far more attention and flak than he deserves. It would be better directed toward those who enabled Savile, the MP peado ring or those twats at Meadomsley.

 

 

 

The thing is, no matter what we might think of the case, going by what we read in the press, the bloke is a convicted rapist. He was found guilty, beyond reasonable doubt, by a jury. There's no "may be" guilty about it - in the eyes of the law, he did it. Until a legal process takes place under which he clears his name, Ched Evans is a convicted rapist.

 

The fact that the woman was drunk doesn't in any way suggest it was any more acceptable - it is no excuse whatsoever.

 

My problem with Evans is, every time I have seen him on tv or read stuff he has said in the newspapers, he refers to it as "my infidelity" which his girlfriend has forgiven him for.  This sort of thing:

 

"Ched Evans: cheating on my girlfriend was unforgivable" - http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/oct/19/ched-evans-no-remorse-rape-woman

 

It wasn't "infidelity", it was rape.

 

There is nothing normal about this - two professional footballers have sex with a woman so drunk she can hardly stand up, whilst two other men watch.

 

I don't have an opinion one way or the other about whether Sheffield United should have him back, I can see both sides of the argument, but I find the creeping acceptance (and I don't mean anyone here, I mean in general) of what he did as in some way not actual rape more than a little bit unpleasant.

 

Completely agree and couldn't have put it better myself.

 

The fact is that if you have sex with someone who is clearly too drunk to give true consent then you are committing rape. It matters not whether you personally think you have committed rape or are ignorant of the law.

[Rob W]

Agreed - but he's done his time so in my book he gets to start again

 

I don't have to like him, iI don't have to applaud him but he gets a chance to rebuild his life

 

If we don't offer such a chance what the hell will he do?  A downward spiral of drink, drugs, more bad behavior etc etc

[ujpest doza]

I think there should be a don't know vote rather than just Yes or No.

 

I've read his website about this and it all seems a bit off.

The girl actually approached and picked up his mate in the street as he was getting in a taxi. Asked him where he was going and when he replied back to my hotel she apparently said right then I'm going back with you.

 

Just seems odd that she says she can't remember a thing but only one of them was convicted and one walked free.

[ujpest doza]

Still can't get my head round how if she was deemed too intoxicated to consent to anyform of sex, then how did Evans get convicted but the other one didn't? 

 

Presumably she admitted having sex with the other bloke?

From what I read she couldn't remember having sex with either of them and only knew she had because they told the police they had.

[brummie]

Surely he has every right to call it infidelity though? Just because he was convicted in a court of law doesn't mean he has to accept it and I don't think there's enough evidence out there for us to say without any trepidation that "it was rape." The jury decided it was but that's hardly water tight.

 

If it is true though and she was in a state, although what he did would have been rape by the very definition of the word, there's a completely different mentality behind what he would have done and what we would usually classify as rape. I just don't think this is the monstrous crime it's been painted as in the media, it's been seen as rape (which again by the very definition of the word it would be) and that's that, Ched Evans is a RAPIST. Ched Evans is a monster etc.

 

Again I'm not trying to play down what he's done (if it's true), I just think for what he's been accused of he's served a sentence which more than covers for the crime and should be allowed to get on with his life. RAPIST though, it'll always stick, rightly or wrongly.

 

We have to rely on the legal system, though. He has been through the legal process, tried, found guilty and convicted. He even had the right to an appeal turned down.

 

Evans and another bloke had sex with a woman too drunk to consent whilst two other men watched. That is the top and bottom of it. Calling it infidelity just makes it sound like what it would be if you or I started shagging someone behind our partner's back.

 

Evans can call it what he likes, but that doesn't mean that is what it is. Somewhere there is the victim listening to this, or maybe there are other women who have been raped and scared to go to the police about it, being put off by Evans's brushing it off as infidelity.

 

CCTV footage of the evening apparently showed she could barely stand, she was so off her face.

 

He might not think he's raped anyone, but the law thinks otherwise. I can't help but think that, if he came to terms with what had happened and stopped trying to minimise it, people might be more understanding in allowing him to rebuild his life.

[Stottie]

Still can't get my head round how if she was deemed too intoxicated to consent to anyform of sex, then how did Evans get convicted but the other one didn't? 

 

Presumably she admitted having sex with the other bloke?

 

The other bloke was acquitted of rape, i.e., a charge of rape was brought against him too.  For him to be acquitted, the court must have been satisfied that the sex between him and the woman was consensual, i.e., she must have been capable of giving consent and did so. The "it was rape because she was too drunk to give consent" reasoning did not apply against him.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Surely he has every right to call it infidelity though? Just because he was convicted in a court of law doesn't mean he has to accept it and I don't think there's enough evidence out there for us to say without any trepidation that "it was rape." The jury decided it was but that's hardly water tight.

 

If it is true though and she was in a state, although what he did would have been rape by the very definition of the word, there's a completely different mentality behind what he would have done and what we would usually classify as rape. I just don't think this is the monstrous crime it's been painted as in the media, it's been seen as rape (which again by the very definition of the word it would be) and that's that, Ched Evans is a RAPIST. Ched Evans is a monster etc.

 

Again I'm not trying to play down what he's done (if it's true), I just think for what he's been accused of he's served a sentence which more than covers for the crime and should be allowed to get on with his life. RAPIST though, it'll always stick, rightly or wrongly.

 

We have to rely on the legal system, though. He has been through the legal process, tried, found guilty and convicted. He even had the right to an appeal turned down.

 

Evans and another bloke had sex with a woman too drunk to consent whilst two other men watched. That is the top and bottom of it. Calling it infidelity just makes it sound like what it would be if you or I started shagging someone behind our partner's back.

 

Evans can call it what he likes, but that doesn't mean that is what it is. Somewhere there is the victim listening to this, or maybe there are other women who have been raped and scared to go to the police about it, being put off by Evans's brushing it off as infidelity.

 

CCTV footage of the evening apparently showed she could barely stand, she was so off her face.

 

He might not think he's raped anyone, but the law thinks otherwise. I can't help but think that, if he came to terms with what had happened and stopped trying to minimise it, people might be more understanding in allowing him to rebuild his life.

 

Why do we have to rely upon the legal system in this instance? I mean obviously yes, in the grand scheme of things our society has to, but when it's still questionable there's no reason to...