Ched Evans - Not Guilty

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

Ian Watkins still posts.

[mrmojorisin75]

He is saying he believes she was too intoxicated, and that the cctv footage shows how intoxicated she was. That's not the same as saying "I think she was intoxicated because she looks pissed on the cctv footage".

 

yet the CCTV footage from the hotel showing her not looking pissed and walking around fine enough should just be ignored, even though time-wise it is closer to the incident in question than when she was looking more pissed

 

You've just totally ignored the point about the cctv footage and decided "she looks alright to me" and on the basis of that, Evans has been unfairly treated?

 

Christ, no wonder rape is such a sensitive subject.

 

sorry?  what i'm saying is the judge has chosen, has he not, to refer to CCTV footage that shows the lass is too intoxicated to consent to sex - this footage is from earlier on, in the footage closer to the incident in question (immediately before i'd imagine) she doesn't look particularly pissed but that doesn't support the idea that she couldn't consent

 

bear in mind the only evidence against evans is really his own admission of intercourse and the CCTV footage (to my knowledge) plus the lass saying she didn't remember a thing, which is the crux obvs

[Wullie]

I'm not sure the judge's comments are worth a jot tbh. I would bet it's almost unheard of for the judge to say he disagreed with the jury's decision or cast doubt on the verdict in any way.

[mrmojorisin75]

I'm not sure the judge's comments are worth a jot tbh. I would bet it's almost unheard of for the judge to say he disagreed with the jury's decision or cast doubt on the verdict in any way.

 

i think the important thing is not the post-sentencing comments but his remarks to the jury before he sent them away to decide in that ED209 link

 

 

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

I'm not sure the judge's comments are worth a jot tbh. I would bet it's almost unheard of for the judge to say he disagreed with the jury's decision or cast doubt on the verdict in any way.

 

He literally can't say he disagreed with it. The only way for a Judge to work around what he felt was an unjust verdict would be leniency on Sentence. Though it is improper to do so.

[Hanshithispantz]

The judge's comments indicate that his verdict has come down to individual opinion. Obviously there was more to it than that, but he specifically uses the CCTV footage in his sentencing remarks and emphasises that it's in fact just an opinion. The jury would have had there own opinions too, which apparently matched the judges. It's still an opinion though, "was she drunk enough to consent going by this CCTV footage?"

 

No, as i said above, that is not what he is saying at all.

 

Of course opinion gets involved. It almost always does in legal cases. It is an opinion formed after seeing all the evidence, listening to questioning, and applying the law as exists. That's how juries work, too. That is how the legal system works.

 

There is a massive difference between a few people discussing a legal case on a football forum, and a court of law with a judge and jury.

 

A high court judge, a jury, having sat through the trial, having seen all the evidence, decided that Evans was guilty "beyond all reasonable doubt". As did the second judge who rejected the appeal.

 

His comments also don't suggest it has "all come down to his personal opinion", either. He was found guilty by a jury.

My point about it coming down to opinion is that there is no (as far as I'm aware) single solid piece of evidence that suggests guilt. It comes down to things like the CCTV footage which are open to individual interpretation.

 

I'm not doubting the jury or their decision, they wouldn't have taken the task lightly, but I don't believe there's anything to suggest that the decision is 100% correct, without any doubt. It seems impossible given the evidence. If there was something I've missed then fair enough.

 

FWIW I'm not saying that I think he's innocent, or that he shouldn't have served his sentence once found guilty. I just cannot ever be 100% sure despite the jury's verdict.

[Wullie]

I'm not sure the judge's comments are worth a jot tbh. I would bet it's almost unheard of for the judge to say he disagreed with the jury's decision or cast doubt on the verdict in any way.

 

i think the important thing is not the post-sentencing comments but his remarks to the jury before he sent them away to decide in that ED209 link

 

Ah fair enough, I'm on the wap site on my phone, hadn't realised that.

 

[UV]

But that's the important point. He's a convicted rapist. End of.

 

Personally I think this is mental, especially in cases where we know there's a massive grey area.

 

There isn't a massive grey area, though, that is the point. Any lack of clarity in this is caused mostly by Evans's actions and those of his bankrollers since he came out of prison.

 

That's precisely what I meant when I referred to the way he has acted.

 

Evans was found guilty of rape by a jury. By law, a conviction has to be "beyond all reasonable doubt". Any grey area added to that exists purely because of Evans and his team.

It is a grey area though as rape, in this way, isn't exactly a single identifiable action. It's not like being caught on CCTV walking into ASDA and walking out with a tele. There's a lot more to it than that.

 

I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm just uneasy about saying he's 100% guilty because that's the verdict that was given.

 

unless evan's people are responsible for making up loads of shit that didn't happen and spinning it as the truth without anyone taking them to task for it there's a lot to question about the conviction imho - in effect he's gone down because a jury, heavily influenced by the judge at the time iirc, have decided that the lass was too drunk to consent, not that she didn't consent mind you...in fact the porter fella heard her actively participating in the act (again iirc)

 

so unless i'm missing something he wasn't sent down on hard evidence at all, the lass said she can't remember, no-one can prove otherwise and a subjective decision has been made to say he raped her when witness testimony suggests it wasn't forced and was indeed consented to at the time

 

if there's nothing grey about that then jesus

 

all of this is said with the proviso there may be evidence i've not read or heard about etc.

 

She had sex with 2 blokes in a hotel room, neither of which incidents she can remember.

 

Sex with bloke A is OK. Sex with bloke B is rape.

 

No grey areas though as its been decided in court by 12 people who are infallible and have no biases or preconceptions.

[mrmojorisin75]

The judge's comments indicate that his verdict has come down to individual opinion. Obviously there was more to it than that, but he specifically uses the CCTV footage in his sentencing remarks and emphasises that it's in fact just an opinion. The jury would have had there own opinions too, which apparently matched the judges. It's still an opinion though, "was she drunk enough to consent going by this CCTV footage?"

 

No, as i said above, that is not what he is saying at all.

 

Of course opinion gets involved. It almost always does in legal cases. It is an opinion formed after seeing all the evidence, listening to questioning, and applying the law as exists. That's how juries work, too. That is how the legal system works.

 

There is a massive difference between a few people discussing a legal case on a football forum, and a court of law with a judge and jury.

 

A high court judge, a jury, having sat through the trial, having seen all the evidence, decided that Evans was guilty "beyond all reasonable doubt". As did the second judge who rejected the appeal.

 

His comments also don't suggest it has "all come down to his personal opinion", either. He was found guilty by a jury.

My point about it coming down to opinion is that there is no (as far as I'm aware) single solid piece of evidence that suggests guilt. It comes down to things like the CCTV footage which are open to individual interpretation.

 

I'm not doubting the jury or their decision, they wouldn't have taken the task lightly, but I don't believe there's anything to suggest that the decision is 100% correct, without any doubt. It seems impossible given the evidence. If there was something I've missed then fair enough.

 

FWIW I'm not saying that I think he's innocent, or that he shouldn't have served his sentence once found guilty. I just cannot ever be 100% sure despite the jury's verdict.

 

i honestly can't see how you get to "reasonable doubt" when it's essentially a case of 2 people's word against each other - he said she consented, she said she doesn't remember a thing which cannot be verified but that statement in itself (plus some selected CCTV footage i guess) led a jury to decide that she was unable to consent

 

it's lucky people don't lie i suppose, otherwise we'd need evidence and shit

 

[Village Idiot]

Tbf, it's legal doctrine in most western nations that severe intoxication prevents effective consent. So you only need to prove that she was too drunk.

[mrmojorisin75]

What? is that really a hard concept to grasp? she might have consented with the first guy, and not the second.

 

aye she might, but she can't remember so she doesn't know

 

2 witnesses say she did

1 witness (porter) said he heard her partaking in the act

[UV]

What? is that really a hard concept to grasp? she might have consented with the first guy, and not the second.

 

aye she might, but she can't remember so she doesn't know

 

2 witnesses say she did

1 witness (porter) said he heard her partaking in the act

 

Yeah but I'm saying its entirely possible to consent with one and not the other.

 

The point is not whether or not she consented, but whether or not she was in a fit state to consent.

 

The jury has decided she was in a fit state consent to bloke A, but not to bloke B.

[Big Geordie]

btw:

 

 

David Conn ‏@david_conn  4m4 minutes ago

Ched Evans: Police say they called Oldham Athletic & sponsors and were told no threats been made; a couple of "low level abuse on Twitter."

 

Well, well, well......

 

Classic Mike Ashley?

[mrmojorisin75]

What? is that really a hard concept to grasp? she might have consented with the first guy, and not the second.

 

aye she might, but she can't remember so she doesn't know

 

2 witnesses say she did

1 witness (porter) said he heard her partaking in the act

 

Yeah but I'm saying its entirely possible to consent with one and not the other.

 

The point is not whether or not she consented, but whether or not she was in a fit state to consent.

 

The jury has decided she was in a fit state consent to bloke A, but not to bloke B.

 

correct, also worth bearing in mind that she'd have consented to A earlier in the night when her intoxication level would have been higher (albeit fractionally i guess)

[mozy]

My understanding it was basically seen as being irrelevant whether she consented or not, Evans was convicted becasue he should have realised she was 'obviously' too drunk to consent. Does anyone know if Evans was in any way drunk himself?

[Danh1]

I can't get over the fact that there are people seemingly dedicating their lives to stopping this bloke from playing Football.

[NG32]

My understanding it was basically seen as being irrelevant whether she consented or not, Evans was convicted becasue he should have realised she was 'obviously' too drunk to consent. Does anyone know if Evans was in any way drunk himself?

 

I thought he (Evans) was at home, his mate called him saying he had pulled this lass.  Evans drove to the hotel and took over.  Isn't there CCTV footage of her being totally smashed and barely able to walk??

[mrmojorisin75]

My understanding it was basically seen as being irrelevant whether she consented or not, Evans was convicted becasue he should have realised she was 'obviously' too drunk to consent. Does anyone know if Evans was in any way drunk himself?

 

I thought he (Evans) was at home, his mate called him saying he had pulled this lass.  Evans drove to the hotel and took over.  Isn't there CCTV footage of her being totally smashed and barely able to walk??

 

they were out together that night but evans and mcdonald got split up after leaving wherever they were, there was some bother involving another of their mates or something

 

so almost certainly he'll have had a drink in him

[sempuki]

Oldham's chairman has just quit.

[UV]

I see he has just made the following statement via the PFA:

 

I am grateful for the support of the PFA in helping me try to return to football and continue my career.

 

Upon legal advice, I was told not to discuss the events in question. This silence has been misinterpreted as arrogance and I would like to state that this could not be further from the truth.

 

I do remain limited at present by what I can say due to the ongoing referral to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effects that night in Rhyl has had on many people, not least the woman concerned.

 

Finally, it has been claimed that those using social media in an abusive and vindictive way towards this woman are supporters of mine. I wish to make it clear that these people are not my supporters and I condemn their actions entirely and will continue to do so.

 

Wont change a single thing or anyone's opinion of course.

[Skeletor]

I see he has just made the following statement via the PFA:

 

I am grateful for the support of the PFA in helping me try to return to football and continue my career.

 

Upon legal advice, I was told not to discuss the events in question. This silence has been misinterpreted as arrogance and I would like to state that this could not be further from the truth.

 

I do remain limited at present by what I can say due to the ongoing referral to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effects that night in Rhyl has had on many people, not least the woman concerned.

 

Finally, it has been claimed that those using social media in an abusive and vindictive way towards this woman are supporters of mine. I wish to make it clear that these people are not my supporters and I condemn their actions entirely and will continue to do so.

 

Wont change a single thing or anyone's opinion of course.

 

Too late. Sounds insincere now. Literally couldn't be worse timing.

[Guest neesy111]

Oldham chairman has now apparently quit.

[loki679]

Who thinks it's a good idea to drive over and have sex with a drunk girl their mate has just pulled? 

 

Honestly, if a girl is off her face just don't have sex with her, it's not fucking difficult.

[Dave]

I see he has just made the following statement via the PFA:

 

I am grateful for the support of the PFA in helping me try to return to football and continue my career.

 

Upon legal advice, I was told not to discuss the events in question. This silence has been misinterpreted as arrogance and I would like to state that this could not be further from the truth.

 

I do remain limited at present by what I can say due to the ongoing referral to the Criminal Cases Review Commission and whilst I continue to maintain my innocence, I wish to make it clear that I wholeheartedly apologise for the effects that night in Rhyl has had on many people, not least the woman concerned.

 

Finally, it has been claimed that those using social media in an abusive and vindictive way towards this woman are supporters of mine. I wish to make it clear that these people are not my supporters and I condemn their actions entirely and will continue to do so.

 

Wont change a single thing or anyone's opinion of course.

 

Too late. Sounds insincere now. Literally couldn't be worse timing.

 

Precisely. Should have just done this to start with.

[Big Geordie]

Ashley will have something to do with the chairman stepping down.