Guest Roger Kint Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Tbf Ernst & Young arent really the go to firm for taxi drivers looking to cheap the tax credit system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymc1 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Tbf Ernst & Young arent really the go to firm for taxi drivers looking to cheap the tax credit system PWC have been corrupt for years to be fair. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I've spent more time than I should have discussing NUFC finances on here over the years - and I expected more profit than that. I know some might be skeptical about whether Ashley has taken cash to reduce the loan and "hidden" it, but please trust me if the audited accounts show his loan as unchanged since last year then he hasn't. Some sharp increase in costs has gone through - what is it? Like others on here I await a look at the published figures..... if the audited accounts show his loan as unchanged since last year then he hasn't. I take it you've never used an accountant before then. Correct I haven't used an accountant before because I am one. The NUFC accounts,by law, require an independent audit and as such are a far cry from, for example, a trader fiddling a tax return. For a company it is perfectly possible to manipulate profits and losses by subjective use of accounting policies but cash in bank and documented loans are not a moveable feast I'm afraid. This is eloquently what i've been trying to explain for awhile now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andymc1 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though A little bit, a little bit there - soon adds up! Unless somebody has access to the workings behind the accounts we'll never know exactly where each pound goes, but there will be a 'justifiable' reason for every cost reported. These may/will be subjective in many cases with an intention to keep the profit down (for reasons only MA and the directors will know) but all will have a good degree of validity from a business sense. Again, we need the cash flow as this is what will show what costs have resulted in a cash outflow, and which are management provisions etc and not cash impacting Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toonpack Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Or hopefully there could be a huge chunk of "cash at bank" which means the profit's been massaged but the cash is still there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Or hopefully there could be a huge chunk of "cash at bank" which means the profit's been massaged but the cash is still there. Us accountants prefer the word 'managed' to massaged! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Or hopefully there could be a huge chunk of "cash at bank" which means the profit's been massaged but the cash is still there. Yes, and a lot of the methods used to massage the profit will be visible. I'm sure Colo is right that some of it will be impairment provisions against players values. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Isn't cash in the bank something for the balance sheet rather than profit/loss? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Or hopefully there could be a huge chunk of "cash at bank" which means the profit's been massaged but the cash is still there. Us accountants prefer the word 'managed' to massaged! Speak for yourself Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Or hopefully there could be a huge chunk of "cash at bank" which means the profit's been massaged but the cash is still there. Aye - this is the crux of it. If he's thrown all the cash on expenses, consultancy fees etc. we are in deep poo. If the cash is still there well, I don't know. I believe they know 95% of football fans don't understand that profit and cash available are two different things.People consider you make 10, costs of business is 6 - profit is 4, then you have 4 to reinvest. We understand in a big business accounting is not so simple but most people essentially boil it down to that principle. This is reinforced by us seemingly spending our "profit" in the transfer market. So they can buy 1 player for £8m and say over the life of his contract the deal is £18m, say "got to balance the books you know" and we go another year without sufficient investment. Meanwhile the asset Ashley has zero plans to sell is swimming in cash. A high debt, high cash business valuation will be through the roof - would it not? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Or hopefully there could be a huge chunk of "cash at bank" which means the profit's been massaged but the cash is still there. Us accountants prefer the word 'managed' to massaged! Speak for yourself As long as its not 'fudged' eh?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Isn't cash in the bank something for the balance sheet rather than profit/loss? Yes thats correct, and cash in the bank doesn't lie - if you get my drift. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I'm not an expert by any stretch but I just don't trust Ashley and his mates. There's always a way to fiddle no matter what the size of the company. Profit yes, cash on its own no. I imagine there will be some write down in player value (Ben Arfa, MYM, Santon perhaps) along with some 'consultancy costs' in relation to various club/business development ideas and some training ground improvements. Wouldn't surprise me to see costs in relation to obtaining hosting rights for the Rugby World Cup games in there as well. Of course this will all be neatly wrapped up in admin or professional fees 25m though It's a huge chunk of money. It may take a bit of searching but the answer will be buried somewhere in the notes to the published accounts. Or hopefully there could be a huge chunk of "cash at bank" which means the profit's been massaged but the cash is still there. Us accountants prefer the word 'managed' to massaged! Speak for yourself As long as its not 'fudged' eh?! Oh yes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Isn't cash in the bank something for the balance sheet rather than profit/loss? Yes thats correct, and cash in the bank doesn't lie - if you get my drift. Yeah, so income-minus-costs still makes profit, even if you stash the cash in the bank? So we would need other ways to manage the profit down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Isn't cash in the bank something for the balance sheet rather than profit/loss? Yes thats correct, and cash in the bank doesn't lie - if you get my drift. Yeah, so income-minus-costs still makes profit, even if you stash the cash in the bank? So we would need other ways to manage the profit down. Yes, for example as has been mentioned you can mess around with asset valuations to alter your reported profit. You could decide that certain players aren't worth the value they are recorded at in the balance sheet, and stick through an extra charge for amortisation - and that will reduce your profit. You would have to come up with a plausible reason. Albert Luque is a player who I remember being given this particular treatment, although in his case there was concrete evidence that he was overvalued as (apart from being fairly crap) he was sold for a fraction of his carrying value after the balance sheet date. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Isn't cash in the bank something for the balance sheet rather than profit/loss? Yes thats correct, and cash in the bank doesn't lie - if you get my drift. Yeah, so income-minus-costs still makes profit, even if you stash the cash in the bank? So we would need other ways to manage the profit down. Your confusing accounting profit with real profit. Cash revenue - cash costs = cash left to invest This you can't play with to the same extent. But there are a few ways. 10 year season tickets gives us more cash upfront than expected. Buying players in full cash but selling players and taking installments would have a negative impact. So you need both to get a good understanding of the full picture. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quayside Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Isn't cash in the bank something for the balance sheet rather than profit/loss? Yes thats correct, and cash in the bank doesn't lie - if you get my drift. Yeah, so income-minus-costs still makes profit, even if you stash the cash in the bank? So we would need other ways to manage the profit down. Your confusing accounting profit with real profit. Cash revenue - cash costs = cash left to invest This you can't play with to the same extent. But there are a few ways. 10 year season tickets gives us more cash upfront than expected. Buying players in full cash but selling players and taking installments would have a negative impact. So you need both to get a good understanding of the full picture. The difference between cash profit and accounting profit is that cash profit is the difference between what comes in and what goes out. Whereas there are different methods of recognising both income and costs in getting to an accounting profit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yeah, I understand that accounting profit can be manipulated in a way that absolute money coming in can't in the same way. It'll be interesting to see if they have reasons for these increased costs. What does 'cash profit' mean in practice though? Just the amount that our cash in the bank has increased by? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest YonderStar Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 By my calculations there around £26m of costs to find. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colos Short and Curlies Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Yeah, I understand that accounting profit can be manipulated in a way that absolute money coming in can't in the same way. It'll be interesting to see if they have reasons for these increased costs. What does 'cash profit' mean in practice though? Just the amount that our cash in the bank has increased by? Pretty much yeah Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 We didn't win the trophy: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/32127067 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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