Rafael Benitez

[Robster]

Good input TD. Cheers.

[Altamullan]

Derisive smart-alecky gibes abound... welcome to 2017!!

[edit: the author has deleted it; good on ye man, HNY  ]

[Guest firetotheworks]

The main thing you have to understand about Rafa, when it comes to tactics, subs, in-game changes, everything, is his need to 'control the game.' That is his be and end all. I remember when we drew with Hull at Anfield in a crazy game. It was 3-3 something and an absolute farce of mistakes, broken play, goals and chaos. Great to watch, though the result was s*** for a home fan. Rafa was aghast. There was no control on the pitch. He hates that. So at 0-0 he will be happy if his team has control as more often than not that control will lead to a goal. Of course if it doesn't, and someone makes an error or there's a worldie out of nowhere, then you lose. But Rafa will take that because more often than not control leads to victories, and failing that a draw. He will also try and trust in his team to fight a way back from a deficit IF they have control. What he won't do - until it's late on and he's desperate - is bung strikers and unbalance the team and risk losing control, because he'll wonder how you can do that and score. So at 0-0 in your match he would have believed that control would lead to a goal and that control would lead to you holding on to that. BR scored so he changed it, but still seeking control.

 

Liverpool fans constantly wanted his team to throw off the shackles during these kind of runs. But he will stick to his guns because he believes, with justification, that control leads to wins and as the team grows in confidence they start to crush teams and often win heavily. It's rarely exhilarating, but that requires an element of risk and risk of losing control, but is no less pleasing and effective. IF he has the right players for it i.e ones who don't keep f***ing up and making the control came to naught.

 

Two things I'm interested in.

 

What do you/he consider control? Ball control? If it's not leading to goal scoring opportunities are you really in control of the game?

 

What does he do when the team is losing control? How does he react? What did he change in that Hull game? What did he change yesterday in the 10-15 mins before the goal when you could see us dropping a lot deeper than the first half (and giving them more control).

 

Control of the ball and territory, which in his view leads to goal scoring opportunities.

 

I searched for the game. It was actually 2-2. We went 2-0 down against the run of play and then pulled it back to 2-2 by half time. Rafa thought we were too open it was clear at half time told us to be more disciplined. We piled it on second half but couldn't get a winner. Get this - Rafa was criticised for not putting Robbie Keane on in the second half, instead choosing to put on Ryan Babel and Nabil El Zhar (El Zhar missed a sitter to win it). When he was asked why he didn't put Keane on he said, and i quote, 'Using more people in the box is not a guarantee.'

 

I remember it well because it sparked a massive debate about whether Rafa should have just carried on going for it once we got back from 0-2 to 2-2 as we might have ripped them to shreds.

 

As a coda, we finished second that season with a then PL record of 86 points, four behind Man U, which would have won the league in many season. Last quarter of the season we were unstoppable. But there are those who still think that natural caution of Rafa's cost us a couple too many draws early in the season and gave Man U the opening. I don't. He got that season spot on and we were damned unlucky not to win it.

 

[Hanshithispantz]

Derisive smart-alecky gibes abound... welcome to 2017!!

[edit: the author has deleted it; good on ye man, HNY  ]

I deleted it because instead of editing because I cannot really be bothered. Your weird obsession with me is doing my head in though, please fuck off

[Altamullan]

Thanks Donis  . As you've probably seen the same debates gaining some momentum here, as ever (self included) as people are frustrated re this approach solely as we have looked predicable and had some poor results. It is lovely of you to take the time to caste some light rather than stoking heat on the issue.

[TRon]

Must admit, when Rafa was at Liverpool I did share that view that he was too cautious to win the league. I saw him as a perfect cup manager, and still do.

[Altamullan]

Derisive smart-alecky gibes abound... welcome to 2017!!

[edit: the author has deleted it; good on ye man, HNY  ]

I deleted it because instead of editing because I cannot really be bothered. Your weird obsession with me is doing my head in though, please f*** off

Ouch! Not sure why you think I am obsessed with you, perhaps just part of your general ego centrism which flows through a lot of your posts and the back-peddling ones that often follow. FWIW, I don't like sarcasm and unjustified assertions and ranting, don't have a problem with you per se, didn't quote you and as I inferred by the HNY, I was happy to see you self-censor and remove the negativity. Be happy dude.

[Kasper]

Your original point was 'Rafa has no plan B' -  I've showed you a few different plan Bs that Rafa has employed.

Then you changed your point to 'Rafa doesn't have a plan B that works' - a different point.

Now you're asking me to give you a step by step guide on why different players can produce different results, which is a very basic premise that doesn't really need to be explained. It's a plan unto itself, a very basic one, but a plan nonetheless.

 

What is it that you actually want?

 

 

You have? All I've seen is lots of talk about substitutions

 

Does that mean that if we go in the next game with a different starting 11, it's also automaticly a different game plan?

 

What I actually want is you to tell me is how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes? If we've banged our head on the wall and decide to put Perez on then what is the different way the team is supposed to play to unlock that defense? Changing a player to another one isn't a change of game plan if it doesn't change the way the TEAM plays. You can easily identify things from our first choice game plan (which is a nice change at this club) but I struggle to see how our game plan changes if that doesn't work. You mentioned "playing to their strenghts" but could you elaborate on that a bit. What does that actually mean and how is it going to help us? Feel free to use yesterday as an example. Or even a theory of what should happen will do.

 

What that Liverpool fan has said is more interesting though. It might be that it's not about the lack of plan B but more about the apprehension to deviate from the first choice plan. Add that to what he apparently has said about only working with one system so far but wants to have 2-3. Work in progress. I get that, but it doesn't mean we're dealing well with these situations right now.

 

 

[Hanshithispantz]

It's the 3rd or 4th time you've completely ignored an entire debate within a thread and posted purely to tell me I'm a cunt. Either I'm just incredibly unlucky, you hold some kind of grudge over something I've said (general ego centrism which flows through a lot of your posts and the back-peddling ones that often follow), or I am just a cunt. Whatever the reason I find it incredibly boring.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Your original point was 'Rafa has no plan B' -  I've showed you a few different plan Bs that Rafa has employed.

Then you changed your point to 'Rafa doesn't have a plan B that works' - a different point.

Now you're asking me to give you a step by step guide on why different players can produce different results, which is a very basic premise that doesn't really need to be explained. It's a plan unto itself, a very basic one, but a plan nonetheless.

 

What is it that you actually want?

 

 

You have? All I've seen is lots of talk about substitutions

 

Does that mean that if we go in the next game with a different starting 11, it's also automaticly a different game plan?

 

What I actually want is you to tell me is how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes? If we've banged our head on the wall and decide to put Perez on then what is the different way the team is supposed to play to unlock that defense? Changing a player to another one isn't a change of game plan if it doesn't change the way the TEAM plays. You can easily identify things from our first choice game plan (which is a nice change at this club) but I struggle to see how our game plan changes if that doesn't work. You mentioned "playing to their strenghts" but could you elaborate on that a bit. What does that actually mean and how is it going to help us? Feel free to use yesterday as an example. Or even a theory of what should happen will do.

 

What that Liverpool fan has said is more interesting though. It might be that it's not about the lack of plan B but more about the apprehension to deviate from the first choice plan. Add that to what he apparently has said about only working with one system so far but wants to have 2-3. Work in progress. I get that, but it doesn't mean we're dealing well with these situations right now.

 

 

 

You're asking me to go in depth on how Diame and Perez have different strengths and abilities? Or how you would play to those, seriously? You want that to be explained to you?

 

I cba tbh, you're passing basic ignorance off as a desire for insight imo. The differences between the two and the way that you play to their strengths is unbelievably obvious, and I don't believe for a second that you don't already know that.

 

You're now asking me 'how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes?' when, yet again, your original point was that 'Rafa has no plan B' not 'Rafa's Plan B doesn't work'.

 

They're different points. 'Rafa has no plan B' is something I would argue with. 'Rafa's plan B doesn't work' is something I wouldn't really argue with at this stage, because his plan B hasn't really worked so far when called upon at Newcastle.

 

The crucial point though, is that he does have a plan B. Whether it works or not is another matter. 

[Kasper]

Your original point was 'Rafa has no plan B' -  I've showed you a few different plan Bs that Rafa has employed.

Then you changed your point to 'Rafa doesn't have a plan B that works' - a different point.

Now you're asking me to give you a step by step guide on why different players can produce different results, which is a very basic premise that doesn't really need to be explained. It's a plan unto itself, a very basic one, but a plan nonetheless.

 

What is it that you actually want?

 

 

You have? All I've seen is lots of talk about substitutions

 

Does that mean that if we go in the next game with a different starting 11, it's also automaticly a different game plan?

 

What I actually want is you to tell me is how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes? If we've banged our head on the wall and decide to put Perez on then what is the different way the team is supposed to play to unlock that defense? Changing a player to another one isn't a change of game plan if it doesn't change the way the TEAM plays. You can easily identify things from our first choice game plan (which is a nice change at this club) but I struggle to see how our game plan changes if that doesn't work. You mentioned "playing to their strenghts" but could you elaborate on that a bit. What does that actually mean and how is it going to help us? Feel free to use yesterday as an example. Or even a theory of what should happen will do.

 

What that Liverpool fan has said is more interesting though. It might be that it's not about the lack of plan B but more about the apprehension to deviate from the first choice plan. Add that to what he apparently has said about only working with one system so far but wants to have 2-3. Work in progress. I get that, but it doesn't mean we're dealing well with these situations right now.

 

 

 

You're asking me to go in depth on how Diame and Perez have different strengths and abilities? Or how you would play to those, seriously? You want that to be explained to you?

 

I cba tbh, you're passing basic ignorance off as a desire for insight imo. The differences between the two and the way that you play to their strengths is unbelievably obvious, and I don't believe for a second that you don't already know that.

 

You're now asking me 'how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes?' when, yet again, your original point was that 'Rafa has no plan B' not 'Rafa's Plan B doesn't work'.

 

They're different points. 'Rafa has no plan B' is something I would argue with. 'Rafa's plan B doesn't work' is something I wouldn't really argue with at this stage, because his plan B hasn't really worked so far when called upon at Newcastle.

 

The crucial point though, is that he does have a plan B. Whether it works or not is another matter. 

 

I'm asking you how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes because I have seen very little. And how can you call it a change of plan if it doesnt change things on the pitch? Isn't it then the same plan with different players?

 

e: And yes I know how they are very different players but you're completely ignoring the actual question. How are we as a team planning to turn that difference into a goal scoring chance? I don't see it.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Your original point was 'Rafa has no plan B' -  I've showed you a few different plan Bs that Rafa has employed.

Then you changed your point to 'Rafa doesn't have a plan B that works' - a different point.

Now you're asking me to give you a step by step guide on why different players can produce different results, which is a very basic premise that doesn't really need to be explained. It's a plan unto itself, a very basic one, but a plan nonetheless.

 

What is it that you actually want?

 

 

You have? All I've seen is lots of talk about substitutions

 

Does that mean that if we go in the next game with a different starting 11, it's also automaticly a different game plan?

 

What I actually want is you to tell me is how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes? If we've banged our head on the wall and decide to put Perez on then what is the different way the team is supposed to play to unlock that defense? Changing a player to another one isn't a change of game plan if it doesn't change the way the TEAM plays. You can easily identify things from our first choice game plan (which is a nice change at this club) but I struggle to see how our game plan changes if that doesn't work. You mentioned "playing to their strenghts" but could you elaborate on that a bit. What does that actually mean and how is it going to help us? Feel free to use yesterday as an example. Or even a theory of what should happen will do.

 

What that Liverpool fan has said is more interesting though. It might be that it's not about the lack of plan B but more about the apprehension to deviate from the first choice plan. Add that to what he apparently has said about only working with one system so far but wants to have 2-3. Work in progress. I get that, but it doesn't mean we're dealing well with these situations right now.

 

 

 

You're asking me to go in depth on how Diame and Perez have different strengths and abilities? Or how you would play to those, seriously? You want that to be explained to you?

 

I cba tbh, you're passing basic ignorance off as a desire for insight imo. The differences between the two and the way that you play to their strengths is unbelievably obvious, and I don't believe for a second that you don't already know that.

 

You're now asking me 'how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes?' when, yet again, your original point was that 'Rafa has no plan B' not 'Rafa's Plan B doesn't work'.

 

They're different points. 'Rafa has no plan B' is something I would argue with. 'Rafa's plan B doesn't work' is something I wouldn't really argue with at this stage, because his plan B hasn't really worked so far when called upon at Newcastle.

 

The crucial point though, is that he does have a plan B. Whether it works or not is another matter. 

 

I'm asking you how have you seen the game change when we've made those changes because I have seen very little. And how can you call it a change of plan if it doesnt change things on the pitch? Isn't it then the same plan with different players?

 

e: And yes I know how they are very different players but you're completely ignoring the actual question. How are we as a team planning to turn that difference into a goal scoring chance? I don't see it.

 

For the millionth time. Plan B not working isn't the same as there being no Plan B. My point is that there is a Plan B, not 'I've seen the game change as a result of Rafa's Plan B'...why do I keep needing to make this fucking point to you ffs?

 

You're asking ridiculous questions about incredibly obvious, basic things. How a change in players with different strengths might have a positive affect on the match if you attempt to play to those strengths. Seriously? I don't know what to say to you because it's such an incredibly basic, fundamental part of football that you're asking me to explain to you and again I don't believe for a second that you don't already know this stuff, so let's stop wasting each other's time, aye?

[mrmojorisin75]

It's the 3rd or 4th time you've completely ignored an entire debate within a thread and posted purely to tell me I'm a cunt. Either I'm just incredibly unlucky, you hold some kind of grudge over something I've said (general ego centrism which flows through a lot of your posts and the back-peddling ones that often follow), or I am just a cunt. Whatever the reason I find it incredibly boring.

 

get in, forum grudge

[Heron]

Yikes

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I'm probably going to do a big write up on Rafa and his tactics and what we are seeing right now in the hope I at least can make sense of things and maybe highlight stuff to others because I think I know the answer and and it's mostly good. In his own words this season is all about promotion, but with Rafa it's all about the long term as well and we are kind of in the cross roads here. I know one thing, we will probably see another big turn around in personal if we get promoted because a lot of these players although they are doing a job if you like, they are not showing Rafa they can do the job his way and it's his way or nothing. I'll elaborate more later.

[Guest firetotheworks]

I'm probably going to do a big write up on Rafa and his tactics and what we are seeing right now in the hope I at least can make sense of things and maybe highlight stuff to others because I think I know the answer and and it's mostly good. In his own words this season is all about promotion, but with Rafa it's all about the long term as well and we are kind of in the cross roads here. I know one thing, we will probably see another big turn around in personal if we get promoted because a lot of these players although they are doing a job if you like, they are not showing Rafa they can do the job his way and it's his way or nothing. I'll elaborate more later.

 

Immediately thought of this.

 

Choose Keegan, choose Hall, choose 10 thousand words when 10 would do

[shintonsghost]

i think a lot of us panic straight away, i do ffs.

 

i was asked today at work if i'd wasted my money going to watch them, i said no, we tried and bossed the game for pretty much all of it at a standard which is about where we are in the league, fans get frustrated as we all desperately want us to bounce back quickly, me included, im now not so confident we will because of a bad moment from one player that has knocked the teams confidence and all of a sudden we look beatable , defend and pounce.

 

Rafa has my full support, i rarely look long term though, i want it now 

[Kasper]

Well I guess that something we can agree on is that he needs a plan B.

 

Whether that is because he doesn't have a proper plan b or because the current plan b isn't working is pretty irrelevant for anyone who isn't writing a book about this season.

[sempuki]

Rafa has a history of being ruthless so hopefully Colback gets banished.

[Yorkie]

I don't think it's as simple as having a Plan B; he makes changes every game - normally around the same time and to varying degrees of effectiveness. I just don't think he has much faith in anyone outside his favoured starting line-up; Mitrovic being the obvious example. He's the second best striker at the club and yet his position in the squad has gone from: occasional starter and direct rival to Gayle > frequent sub appearances > occasional ten minute sub appearances > dropped altogether. That says a lot about Rafa's opinion of Murphy too, considering how little he's featured when the second striker clearly isn't fancied.

 

He simply doesn't fancy any of the 'game/style-changing' players that get referred to on here; namely Mitro, Murphy, Lazaar and - to a less ruthless extent - Atsu and Yedlin. So he sticks with the set-up that has got us this far. Obviously it's perplexing given how Colback and Gouffran keep stealing pitch-time, but like the Mitro situation, it just shows what Rafa reckons to the back-up if he thinks those two are worthy of the shirt.

 

The only way things are going to get freshened up is in the form of signings. If we're to see any radical changes to our set-up, we need at least: 1 striker, 1 CM and 1 winger - all of whom are Championship-winning calibre. That's a major ask for January.

[shintonsghost]

Rafa has a history of being ruthless so hopefully Colback gets banished.

 

he looks to have done it with Mitro, we are short on options but i honestly believe a cheese and pickle sarnie could do a similar job to Ginger Jack

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Right...

 

First of all, I personally think Rafa is overestimating this division and its costing us in ways, but ultimately we are on course for promotion which is the number one goal here and therefore his methods cannot be knocked (too much), because they are working.

 

I'm in no doubt that under say someone like (wor) Chris Hughton or dare I say it Steve Bruce with these group of players we will probably lose fewer games and play more direct and somewhat more adventurous than under Rafa, and that promotion would be achieved all the same.

 

But... come the Premier League?

 

What we are seeing under Rafa is a system, a method, a way of playing, a set of tactics that has seen him succeed at every club he has been at even at club's he's not exactly been welcomed at (Chelsea) or considered a good fit (Real Madrid).

 

The man is a winner, whatever it is he does, it works.

 

And its working here, albeit not to everyone's taste and I include myself in that. I don't like his tactics, his game plan or our style of play. I think we are making hard work of many a fixture and should not be losing the number of games we are. If only he would change things a bit... two up front maybe? Less holding midfielders maybe? Earlier changes maybe? More game time for Mitrovic maybe? Lots of maybes...

 

Would we be any better off? Probably not and this is where we need to look at our manager and decide whether we trust him or not. Me personally I trust him 100%.

 

Its all about promotion this season, forget record points, record wins etc. its about becoming a Premier League club come May.

 

That said, however, for Rafa, its about becoming much more than that long-term and that's what we are to him - a long-term project. We are not even a year into that!

 

I've been a fan of his way back when he was Valencia manager and was ridiculously jealous when Liverpool appointed him as we went for Souness. I regard him as the best or one of the best tacticians in the game and easily a world-class manager, top 10 without doubt!

 

I love the man personally for firstly taking us on and secondly for reconnecting the fans and club and city even under the ownership of Ashley. He's made of the same cloth as KK and sir Bobby and yes Hughton, for me the best managers we've had in the modern era.

 

But he isn't beyond critique or question.

 

This season, we are seeing a very drilled and mechanical way of playing which suits some players, but not others. It will probably, hopefully, get us promotion. Rafa remember is all about the long-term.

 

He is finding out which of our players are able to play how he wants us to play and who cannot and that will determine what happens should we become a Premier League club. I guarantee those that cannot play his way will make way for those that can. If this is the Rafalution we must think about evolution and that's what Rafa's sides are all about, evolving until perfection or almost near perfection. We are on a scale of 1-to-5 at the moment.

 

If we reach stage 5 we will be very lucky and will no doubt be one of the better teams in the country.

 

Back to his ways, its all about repetition so that every player regardless of their talent knows what to do and how to do it. Their level of skill or lack of will determine just how far that goes of course.

 

Rafa will now know those that are capable and those that aren't. We will soon say goodbye to your Colbacks and Goufrans thankfully and we will, if backed, see much better players much more suited players to where he wants us heading. Remember he is a long burner, its all about the long-term.

 

What we are seeing today is typical Rafa fayre.

 

If we get promoted and the owner allows big investment we will become one of the best teams in the top-flight!

 

 

[Hanshithispantz]

I think that's sensible enough like. This bit in particular rings true with me:

 

"And its working here, albeit not to everyone's taste and I include myself in that. I don't like his tactics, his game plan or our style of play. I think we are making hard work of many a fixture and should not be losing the number of games we are. If only he would change things a bit... two up front maybe? Less holding midfielders maybe? Earlier changes maybe? More game time for Mitrovic maybe? Lots of maybes...

 

Would we be any better off? Probably not and this is where we need to look at our manager and decide whether we trust him or not. Me personally I trust him 100%."

 

I thought we were fairly poor yesterday despite the stats, and have thought that for a few games this season. He definitely could have done better in individual games if he was more flexible I imagine, but I just have to accept the rough with the smooth knowing that he has a reason for doing what he does and that doing what he does actually has us looking very good for promotion - in 2nd place. Looking back in hindsight we cannot ignore the wins he has us and only question why he didn't do X,Y or Z after defeats. I really want to win the league and I think we still will.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Aye, deciding on whether you trust him and have faith in him to get it right is the point that I've been trying to make. Without his record, both here and elsewhere I'd probably be a bit more opinionated, but I don't think stirring the pot with every other person that's already doing that is productive.

 

I like our style tbh*. In a lot of cases, myself included, the result dictates your own view on the style of play.

 

*When Shelvey's playing.

[Yorkie]

... two up front maybe? Less holding midfielders maybe? Earlier changes maybe? More game time for Mitrovic maybe? Lots of maybes...

 

Would we be any better off? Probably not and this is where we need to look at our manager and decide whether we trust him or not. Me personally I trust him 100%.

 

This season, we are seeing a very drilled and mechanical way of playing which suits some players, but not others. It will probably, hopefully, get us promotion. Rafa remember is all about the long-term.

 

He is finding out which of our players are able to play how he wants us to play and who cannot and that will determine what happens should we become a Premier League club. I guarantee those that cannot play his way will make way for those that can. If this is the Rafalution we must think about evolution and that's what Rafa's sides are all about, evolving until perfection or almost near perfection.

 

Back to his ways, its all about repetition so that every player regardless of their talent knows what to do and how to do it. Their level of skill or lack of will determine just how far that goes of course.

 

Rafa will now know those that are capable and those that aren't. We will soon say goodbye to your Colbacks and Goufrans thankfully and we will, if backed, see much better players much more suited players to where he wants us heading. Remember he is a long burner, its all about the long-term.

 

What we are seeing today is typical Rafa fayre.

 

This is where I'm at. He's building a team identity and whilst it isn't glamorous, it's borne results for him in the past. There's no certainties that it'll work here, with this club, with this group of players, in this league - but I'm confident that in the long run, it will do.

 

What you're saying ties in with what I've been saying about his squad, and how he doesn't feel confident enough in many of them. He's stubbornly sticking to a gameplan he knows; if he doesn't feel that the backup players can enter the plan and make it work, he'll stick with the starting line-up he trusts the most, even if it's plodding to a defeat. It's frustrating to watch, but aye, it's just Rafa.