mighty__mag Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 People genuinely said we won't lose or a game or go unbeaten. It's not utterly made up. I know that's not a large consensus view but there are shades below that as well. You've spent just as much effort painting people as smitten followers incapable of cynicism. If they did they really are dicks. Majority just wanted to see changes instead of a routine loss for the sake of continuing with any personel available to justify 4231. Perez coming on yesterday. Please agree that was pointless. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mighty__mag Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 A lot of people really believed we were going to win every game. Unfortunately for the rest of us they're usually the loudest at voicing their opinions too. Watching yesterday I thought our main issue was picking the wrong pass at the wrong time. For pretty much the whole of the first half there was a player in space for a shot around D yet rarely if ever did the pass find him or the shot get away. Unfortunately that's what happens when you have players who aren't confident enough or good enough to play quick one touch football. When we play well, a lot of goals come from quick, incisive movement and passing alas this hasn't happened as much in recent defeats. I don't think the formation particularly matters especially given it would effectively only be Hayden playing central midfield as no-one else is disciplined/fit enough to do so in a 2 currently. No they really dont. Some opinions of others on here are utterly made up. Nobody thinks we are the untouchables, winning every game is a once in a blue moon thing. Stop exaggerating what you think people think. What most "probably" think or wish want whatever you want to decide is that we could turn a result around. Theres no doubt we are stronger than Blackburn and the other 7 sides that have beaten us with everything taken ito consideration, If you are losing a game why wouldn't you look at other options. Its almost like some are completely mystified by Rafa. Fucking lovestruck kids man. Hmm, nah, more that we trust the managerial and tactical acumen of someone with the below record, over 'mighty_mag and madras on the internet' tbh That's not to say you're not entitled to your opinion or that you can't criticise Rafa, it's more that the criticism isn't really based on anything other than the assumption that things like 'why wouldn't you look at other options?' are things that Rafa hasn't already done, or this idea that acting on other options is always the best, most creative solution. I'd rather he went with what he thinks is the right decision than make an ineffective change to appease fans. Extremadura Segunda División promotion: 1997–98 Tenerife Segunda División promotion: 2000–01 Valencia La Liga: 2001–02, 2003–04 UEFA Cup: 2003–04 Liverpool FA Cup: 2005–06 FA Community Shield: 2006 UEFA Champions League: 2004–05 UEFA Super Cup: 2005 Inter Milan Supercoppa Italiana: 2010 FIFA Club World Cup: 2010 Chelsea UEFA Europa League: 2012–13 Napoli Coppa Italia: 2013–14 Supercoppa Italiana: 2014 Individual awards La Liga Best Coach: 2002 UEFA Manager of the Year: 2003–04, 2004–05 LMA Special Merit Award: 2006 Premier League Manager of the Month (6): November 2005, December 2005, January 2007, October 2008, March 2009, April 2013 Football League Championship Manager of the Month (1): October 2016 Dont want to be a cunt or argue pal, but that's a cringe post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mighty__mag Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimpy474 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 What the fuck is going on Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 Post was directed at Kasper. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 A lot of people really believed we were going to win every game. Unfortunately for the rest of us they're usually the loudest at voicing their opinions too. Watching yesterday I thought our main issue was picking the wrong pass at the wrong time. For pretty much the whole of the first half there was a player in space for a shot around D yet rarely if ever did the pass find him or the shot get away. Unfortunately that's what happens when you have players who aren't confident enough or good enough to play quick one touch football. When we play well, a lot of goals come from quick, incisive movement and passing alas this hasn't happened as much in recent defeats. I don't think the formation particularly matters especially given it would effectively only be Hayden playing central midfield as no-one else is disciplined/fit enough to do so in a 2 currently. No they really dont. Some opinions of others on here are utterly made up. Nobody thinks we are the untouchables, winning every game is a once in a blue moon thing. Stop exaggerating what you think people think. What most "probably" think or wish want whatever you want to decide is that we could turn a result around. Theres no doubt we are stronger than Blackburn and the other 7 sides that have beaten us with everything taken ito consideration, If you are losing a game why wouldn't you look at other options. Its almost like some are completely mystified by Rafa. Fucking lovestruck kids man. Hmm, nah, more that we trust the managerial and tactical acumen of someone with the below record, over 'mighty_mag and madras on the internet' tbh That's not to say you're not entitled to your opinion or that you can't criticise Rafa, it's more that the criticism isn't really based on anything other than the assumption that things like 'why wouldn't you look at other options?' are things that Rafa hasn't already done, or this idea that acting on other options is always the best, most creative solution. I'd rather he went with what he thinks is the right decision than make an ineffective change to appease fans. Extremadura Segunda División promotion: 1997–98 Tenerife Segunda División promotion: 2000–01 Valencia La Liga: 2001–02, 2003–04 UEFA Cup: 2003–04 Liverpool FA Cup: 2005–06 FA Community Shield: 2006 UEFA Champions League: 2004–05 UEFA Super Cup: 2005 Inter Milan Supercoppa Italiana: 2010 FIFA Club World Cup: 2010 Chelsea UEFA Europa League: 2012–13 Napoli Coppa Italia: 2013–14 Supercoppa Italiana: 2014 Individual awards La Liga Best Coach: 2002 UEFA Manager of the Year: 2003–04, 2004–05 LMA Special Merit Award: 2006 Premier League Manager of the Month (6): November 2005, December 2005, January 2007, October 2008, March 2009, April 2013 Football League Championship Manager of the Month (1): October 2016 Dont want to be a cunt or argue pal, but that's a cringe post. Saying things doesn't make them so. Canny clearly not a cringe post in the slightest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 People genuinely said we won't lose or a game or go unbeaten. It's not utterly made up. I know that's not a large consensus view but there are shades below that as well. You've spent just as much effort painting people as smitten followers incapable of cynicism. If they did they really are dicks. Majority just wanted to see changes instead of a routine loss for the sake of continuing with any personel available to justify 4231. Perez coming on yesterday. Please agree that was pointless. I'm reluctant to extrapolate the implications of a single sub to the mans ability to plan. Like I said if its happening game after game following this first real challenge for him with us then I'll start to worry. As it is, we had a shit day considering all other results and our own. I'll credit Rafa with not being happy with it and looking to react and seeing what he does differently in the next few games. I'd be concerned certainly if it became a middling exercise in waiting for Shelvey to come back but I don't think it'll play out that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimpy474 Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 You tosser I was rubbing my screen thinking I had dirt on it. (the black thumbs up) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 Post was directed at Kasper. It was KI who brought that sub up. I think it's a sub he has done a numerous times though isnt it? And I personally haven't seen what it has brought to the table. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 The window is going to be a big indicator, without expecting great shakes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 There are people in here who think that the man who famously managed to win the Champions League from 3-0 at half time to AC Milan doesn't have a plan B. That's the sort of shit that winds me up and I find embarrassing like, if you honestly think he doesn't have a plan B or that plan B is always the answer then I think you need to look at yourself, not Rafa. Why is it then impossible to identify what that plan is? Or can you tell me what our plan is when opponent sits back and Gayle struggles to touch the ball? It's not rocket science. If we have a real plan for these situations then surely most of us would be able to watch the game and point the things he has changed in the way we play. I sure can't. You can't? So you've never seen a change in our football following half time? You've never seen any of our players change position, or new players come on to up the pace or to replace someone who's playing particularly poorly? Perez for Diame, Gouffran for Atsu etc etc? No, I don't see anything consistent enough that tells me there's a solid plan for these situation. If he's bringing on Perez for Diame what is he looking to achieve? How is he changing the way we play if what has been happening for the first 60 minutes clearly isn't working at all. If there is a plan, he needs a better one. What I'd do if Gayle keeps getting abused by two thug center halves is bring Mitro in there and move Gayle on the left where he'd enjoy more space and would be able to do what Gouffran isn't: make runs between the full back and the center back. Mitrovic isn't a great goal scorer but in some games its just so painfully obvious you need a physical presence there to give someone an extra second or a metre. There's no one solid plan though. In some situations Rafa will change players, add players, change line ups. Honestly, not being adaptable or not having a plan B is exactly the last thing that I would accuse Rafa of, he's meticulous in his planning and you rarely see the same line up because he has a plan, not just a one size fits all approach to managing games. Your suggestion is to move the league's top scorer from his natural, favourite, successful position into another one where you think things will happen based on...? Where's this idea that he'll get more space, space to run into come from? You don't see what's looking to be achieved by changing Perez for Diame (for example)? They have different ways of playing for a start, that's before getting onto how one of them is in dire form and the other isn't. Diame drives at teams and gets out wide, Perez is supposed to be the typical tricky number 10, but isn't. Gayle for Mitrovic would come under the same bracket as the Perez for Diame example above, with the obvious reason that this doesn't happen being that one is the league's top scorer and the other isn't anywhere near that. Moving Gayle from his position is lunacy imo. Yes, bring Mitrovic on by all means, but shifting Gayle from the position that he's nailed down? Nah, no chance at this stage. 3 or 4 games without it working then maybe, but not right now. It matters absolutely nothing if he's the top scorer in the world or not if he's not getting a sniff of the ball and is clearly getting frustrated out there. Also I don't get how that comes under the same bracket as Perez and Diame. You were the one who said Rafa has a plan and makes changes like Perez for Diame based on that plan. Yet you don't tell me a single thing Perez brings to the table or how that sub changes the way we play for the better in a certain situation? How is that sub offering an answer to a problem, how is Perez's different style helping us open a defense? I gave a simple example what Mitro for Gouffran sub could bring when we've pushed and pushed for 60 minutes without progress. I said the Mitrovic/Gayle comes under the same bracket as Diame/Perez i.e. different players with different attributes contributing in different ways to make different things happen. The reason that it doesn't happen in the case of Mitrovic and Gayle is, imo, because moving Gayle to accommodate Mitrovic is lunacy. You've made your point for moving Gayle out wide, but I don't agree, and best players in the world aren't moved when it doesn't work once or twice and don't get a sniff. At this level Gayle is that sort of player, you don't react that flippantly when it's been so successful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Also I'm not saying I think he's incapable of making changes. Definitely not. He made big changes for yesterday in the way we tried to win the ball higher up the pitch so we wouldnt be relying so much on Colback and Hayden building from the back. During the games though...I haven't seen much change when we've struggled to break through. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mighty__mag Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 People genuinely said we won't lose or a game or go unbeaten. It's not utterly made up. I know that's not a large consensus view but there are shades below that as well. You've spent just as much effort painting people as smitten followers incapable of cynicism. From what I can gather the 'lovestruck' and others are saying - 'yeah he's got things wrong, I'm not panicking though because he's got the majority of stuff right so far and I have enough belief in his ability to sort things out. To be honest the more I look at yesterday the stranger it becomes, Blackburn were gifted that by an idiot and we lacked the creativity to score in a game that should have really just been a dull draw. The points tally is good and we're doing more right than wrong, what's wrong needs addressing, Rafa will seel do it because he's a capable man. If he's making the same errors/lapses in 3 games time that cost us points then is time to worry but the points are there. We're a million miles from Tufty's 'We'll get it right soon you watch' schtick. 👍 Good post, im no trying to call people out in that way. It just appears like that. Rafa has got it right and this isnt going to turn into one of those past manager topics where someone wants to turn everyone on the manager. The manager is top class. Hes just appearing stubborn. Ive had this early on in the season where i have questioned myself and agreed you do have to just trust he knows what hes doing. Its just watching sometimes you do wonder what ifs, and to be totally honest i did not expect to win every game, but if you said by the end of the season how many would we have lost i would not have thought 7 by new year. Hope its a blip. But i still very much would like to see changes that could potentially turn results. 👍 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 Post was directed at Kasper. It was KI who brought that sub up. I think it's a sub he has done a numerous times though isnt it? And I personally haven't seen what it has brought to the table. Think he was onabout Perez coming off for Diame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 Post was directed at Kasper. It was KI who brought that sub up. I think it's a sub he has done a numerous times though isnt it? And I personally haven't seen what it has brought to the table. Think he was onabout Perez coming off for Diame. Aye, it was just a regular sub that's happened a few times as an example. I wasn't talking specifically about yesterday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mighty__mag Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 You tosser I was rubbing my screen thinking I had dirt on it. (the black thumbs up) Its not black? You on laptop? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 People genuinely said we won't lose or a game or go unbeaten. It's not utterly made up. I know that's not a large consensus view but there are shades below that as well. You've spent just as much effort painting people as smitten followers incapable of cynicism. From what I can gather the 'lovestruck' and others are saying - 'yeah he's got things wrong, I'm not panicking though because he's got the majority of stuff right so far and I have enough belief in his ability to sort things out. To be honest the more I look at yesterday the stranger it becomes, Blackburn were gifted that by an idiot and we lacked the creativity to score in a game that should have really just been a dull draw. The points tally is good and we're doing more right than wrong, what's wrong needs addressing, Rafa will seel do it because he's a capable man. If he's making the same errors/lapses in 3 games time that cost us points then is time to worry but the points are there. We're a million miles from Tufty's 'We'll get it right soon you watch' schtick. I honestly thought we might go unbeaten this season, although obviously it was always a long shot. Tbf, we have only got beat deservedly on a few occasions, out of those seven defeats you could probably put 3 or 4 of them down to referees looking to make a name for themselves. I think Rafa is over-cautious for this division personally, but I get why he does it. He's won trophies with his methods, and just as it's frustrating watching us at times this season, I expect we'll see the success of it in the premier next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stifler Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Rafa has been getting a lot of stick for not changing things, not being more attacking minding etc, and I've been thinking about this. It's becoming clearer that at the moment Rafa isn't more attacking minded because he doesn't have the players for it. Look at yesterday for example, the only real option he had was to bring Perez on earlier, which would have changed our shape, yet when Perez has played this season he has been poor. He could have brought Murphy on, but the problem wasn't really with Gayle, it was more to do with the supply, simply bringing Murphy on won't solve this. The only really option he had was to bring Atsu on, and even then he's blowing hot and cold much like Ritchie and Gouffran. People might be saying 'but he can play with 2 upfront instead of 1 in general'. Well if look at this more closely then maybe we can't. Our general play often comes from Shelvey, and if you look at Shelvey's play then he's usually quite deep, often behind the likes of Colback, and just infant of the CB's, (often even swapping positions with the CB's to allow one of them come forwards with the ball). In order to allow Shelvey to play he often needs more protection, so we still need to maintain 2 central midfielders. This is the real problem here. I think Hayden was bought as replacement for Colback, but circumstances have dictated that often both have to play. At think at the start of the season Rafa was left with a choice, bring in solid teams who will grind out results, but not play pretty football, or bring in all flair players who won't have the ability to grind out games as much. Now as much as we have lost 7 games, you also do have to acknowledge that we have ground out results in difficult games. Rafa being the manager he is was always going to go for the less attractive but more stable option, which means that right now we are in a period of transition where we have a few players in the squad who will be on their way out, and a few who will be here mid-term who are not always playing attractive football, but football that is often effective. Rafa also has to contend with another big problem, and that is tactics from previous managers creeping in. Often under Pardew etc we played sideways, and played across the back because Pardew had no creativity. Rafa plays sideways football and backwards towards the keeper often, but he does this to stretch teams, and when it happens it's joy to watch, the first goal against Ipswich was an example of this. Anyway in our squad we have too many players who are still ingrained the shines of Pardew in them that when they play that way they get stuck in a rut, so it's always sideways passing, and back to the keeper. You also have a few of them who have a defeatist mentality, so even though we are losing with a few minutes left, there will be no urgency from them, this is where Colback and Dummett can take a bow. So in summary, we our left to contend with this until Rafa has time to completely rebuild his squad. This isn't Rafa being arrogant, this is Rafa having little options and having to change things over a period of time. It's been said before, but it's very true, the squad have now is a squad in transition, it is not the finished article, it is not going to the team we have should we get promoted, it is a team that is built so far to gain promotion, and even then we still require a couple more players. So hang fire lads, non of our concerns and observations are going to be lost on Rafa, infact this is probably why over the season he has always maintained that we can still improve, because he has saw our short comings, he acknowledged and has been working on them before they became apparent, and the only thing we can do now is let Rafa and the team to work on them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stifler Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 People genuinely said we won't lose or a game or go unbeaten. It's not utterly made up. I know that's not a large consensus view but there are shades below that as well. You've spent just as much effort painting people as smitten followers incapable of cynicism. From what I can gather the 'lovestruck' and others are saying - 'yeah he's got things wrong, I'm not panicking though because he's got the majority of stuff right so far and I have enough belief in his ability to sort things out. To be honest the more I look at yesterday the stranger it becomes, Blackburn were gifted that by an idiot and we lacked the creativity to score in a game that should have really just been a dull draw. The points tally is good and we're doing more right than wrong, what's wrong needs addressing, Rafa will seel do it because he's a capable man. If he's making the same errors/lapses in 3 games time that cost us points then is time to worry but the points are there. We're a million miles from Tufty's 'We'll get it right soon you watch' schtick. I honestly thought we might go unbeaten this season, although obviously it was always a long shot. Tbf, we have only got beat deservedly on a few occasions, out of those seven defeats you could probably put 3 or 4 of them down to referees looking to make a name for themselves. I think Rafa is over-cautious for this division personally, but I get why he does it. He's won trophies with his methods, and just as it's frustrating watching us at times this season, I expect we'll see the success of it in the premier next season. Sheffield Wednesday is the only time a team has outplayed us, they were the better, even getting away from their tactics to slow the game down, they outplayed us and so far are the only to have done that. The rest of the time it has been smash and grab results, combined with luck/decisions not going our way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasper Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 Post was directed at Kasper. It was KI who brought that sub up. I think it's a sub he has done a numerous times though isnt it? And I personally haven't seen what it has brought to the table. Think he was onabout Perez coming off for Diame. Aye, it was just a regular sub that's happened a few times as an example. I wasn't talking specifically about yesterday. Based on a quick look that sub hasn't happened that way around once this season. At least in the league. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Surprised by that like, you're right though. Diame for Gouffran a few times. Diame's actually started more than I can remember. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Perez came on for Colback, not Diame. To play 10 so Mo could drop into cm. 👍 Post was directed at Kasper. It was KI who brought that sub up. I think it's a sub he has done a numerous times though isnt it? And I personally haven't seen what it has brought to the table. Think he was onabout Perez coming off for Diame. Aye, it was just a regular sub that's happened a few times as an example. I wasn't talking specifically about yesterday. Based on a quick look that sub hasn't happened that way around once this season. At least in the league. It absolutely has. Huddersfield and Bristol just off the top of my head and vs Cardiff, Sheff Wed and Derby they were both substituted for different players, but went into that number 10 position like 5 to 10 minutes later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 There are people in here who think that the man who famously managed to win the Champions League from 3-0 at half time to AC Milan doesn't have a plan B. That's the sort of s*** that winds me up and I find embarrassing like, if you honestly think he doesn't have a plan B or that plan B is always the answer then I think you need to look at yourself, not Rafa. Why is it then impossible to identify what that plan is? Or can you tell me what our plan is when opponent sits back and Gayle struggles to touch the ball? It's not rocket science. If we have a real plan for these situations then surely most of us would be able to watch the game and point the things he has changed in the way we play. I sure can't. You can't? So you've never seen a change in our football following half time? You've never seen any of our players change position, or new players come on to up the pace or to replace someone who's playing particularly poorly? Perez for Diame, Gouffran for Atsu etc etc? No, I don't see anything consistent enough that tells me there's a solid plan for these situation. If he's bringing on Perez for Diame what is he looking to achieve? How is he changing the way we play if what has been happening for the first 60 minutes clearly isn't working at all. If there is a plan, he needs a better one. What I'd do if Gayle keeps getting abused by two thug center halves is bring Mitro in there and move Gayle on the left where he'd enjoy more space and would be able to do what Gouffran isn't: make runs between the full back and the center back. Mitrovic isn't a great goal scorer but in some games its just so painfully obvious you need a physical presence there to give someone an extra second or a metre. There's no one solid plan though. In some situations Rafa will change players, add players, change line ups. Honestly, not being adaptable or not having a plan B is exactly the last thing that I would accuse Rafa of, he's meticulous in his planning and you rarely see the same line up because he has a plan, not just a one size fits all approach to managing games. Your suggestion is to move the league's top scorer from his natural, favourite, successful position into another one where you think things will happen based on...? Where's this idea that he'll get more space, space to run into come from? You don't see what's looking to be achieved by changing Perez for Diame (for example)? They have different ways of playing for a start, that's before getting onto how one of them is in dire form and the other isn't. Diame drives at teams and gets out wide, Perez is supposed to be the typical tricky number 10, but isn't. Gayle for Mitrovic would come under the same bracket as the Perez for Diame example above, with the obvious reason that this doesn't happen being that one is the league's top scorer and the other isn't anywhere near that. Moving Gayle from his position is lunacy imo. Yes, bring Mitrovic on by all means, but shifting Gayle from the position that he's nailed down? Nah, no chance at this stage. 3 or 4 games without it working then maybe, but not right now. It matters absolutely nothing if he's the top scorer in the world or not if he's not getting a sniff of the ball and is clearly getting frustrated out there. Also I don't get how that comes under the same bracket as Perez and Diame. You were the one who said Rafa has a plan and makes changes like Perez for Diame based on that plan. Yet you don't tell me a single thing Perez brings to the table or how that sub changes the way we play for the better in a certain situation? How is that sub offering an answer to a problem, how is Perez's different style helping us open a defense? I gave a simple example what Mitro for Gouffran sub could bring when we've pushed and pushed for 60 minutes without progress. I said the Mitrovic/Gayle comes under the same bracket as Diame/Perez i.e. different players with different attributes contributing in different ways to make different things happen. The reason that it doesn't happen in the case of Mitrovic and Gayle is, imo, because moving Gayle to accommodate Mitrovic is lunacy. You've made your point for moving Gayle out wide, but I don't agree, and best players in the world aren't moved when it doesn't work once or twice and don't get a sniff. At this level Gayle is that sort of player, you don't react that flippantly when it's been so successful. Yeah but the best players in the world tend to play for big clubs who don't have the lack of personnel that we currently suffer from. but even with that in mind, I'm pretty sure that Ronaldo and Messi have played in a number of positions throughout their career. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 There are people in here who think that the man who famously managed to win the Champions League from 3-0 at half time to AC Milan doesn't have a plan B. That's the sort of s*** that winds me up and I find embarrassing like, if you honestly think he doesn't have a plan B or that plan B is always the answer then I think you need to look at yourself, not Rafa. Why is it then impossible to identify what that plan is? Or can you tell me what our plan is when opponent sits back and Gayle struggles to touch the ball? It's not rocket science. If we have a real plan for these situations then surely most of us would be able to watch the game and point the things he has changed in the way we play. I sure can't. You can't? So you've never seen a change in our football following half time? You've never seen any of our players change position, or new players come on to up the pace or to replace someone who's playing particularly poorly? Perez for Diame, Gouffran for Atsu etc etc? No, I don't see anything consistent enough that tells me there's a solid plan for these situation. If he's bringing on Perez for Diame what is he looking to achieve? How is he changing the way we play if what has been happening for the first 60 minutes clearly isn't working at all. If there is a plan, he needs a better one. What I'd do if Gayle keeps getting abused by two thug center halves is bring Mitro in there and move Gayle on the left where he'd enjoy more space and would be able to do what Gouffran isn't: make runs between the full back and the center back. Mitrovic isn't a great goal scorer but in some games its just so painfully obvious you need a physical presence there to give someone an extra second or a metre. There's no one solid plan though. In some situations Rafa will change players, add players, change line ups. Honestly, not being adaptable or not having a plan B is exactly the last thing that I would accuse Rafa of, he's meticulous in his planning and you rarely see the same line up because he has a plan, not just a one size fits all approach to managing games. Your suggestion is to move the league's top scorer from his natural, favourite, successful position into another one where you think things will happen based on...? Where's this idea that he'll get more space, space to run into come from? You don't see what's looking to be achieved by changing Perez for Diame (for example)? They have different ways of playing for a start, that's before getting onto how one of them is in dire form and the other isn't. Diame drives at teams and gets out wide, Perez is supposed to be the typical tricky number 10, but isn't. Gayle for Mitrovic would come under the same bracket as the Perez for Diame example above, with the obvious reason that this doesn't happen being that one is the league's top scorer and the other isn't anywhere near that. Moving Gayle from his position is lunacy imo. Yes, bring Mitrovic on by all means, but shifting Gayle from the position that he's nailed down? Nah, no chance at this stage. 3 or 4 games without it working then maybe, but not right now. It matters absolutely nothing if he's the top scorer in the world or not if he's not getting a sniff of the ball and is clearly getting frustrated out there. Also I don't get how that comes under the same bracket as Perez and Diame. You were the one who said Rafa has a plan and makes changes like Perez for Diame based on that plan. Yet you don't tell me a single thing Perez brings to the table or how that sub changes the way we play for the better in a certain situation? How is that sub offering an answer to a problem, how is Perez's different style helping us open a defense? I gave a simple example what Mitro for Gouffran sub could bring when we've pushed and pushed for 60 minutes without progress. I said the Mitrovic/Gayle comes under the same bracket as Diame/Perez i.e. different players with different attributes contributing in different ways to make different things happen. The reason that it doesn't happen in the case of Mitrovic and Gayle is, imo, because moving Gayle to accommodate Mitrovic is lunacy. You've made your point for moving Gayle out wide, but I don't agree, and best players in the world aren't moved when it doesn't work once or twice and don't get a sniff. At this level Gayle is that sort of player, you don't react that flippantly when it's been so successful. Yeah but the best players in the world tend to play for big clubs who don't have the lack of personnel that we currently suffer from. but even with that in mind, I'm pretty sure that Ronaldo and Messi have played in a number of positions throughout their career. What point are you even making? I was responding to Kasper's comment that "[you would still make a change] if he's the top scorer in the world, if he's not getting a sniff of the ball and is clearly getting frustrated out there." and I'm saying you wouldn't. The best players in the world stay on and in their best position when they're not getting a sniff because it only takes one moment. My argument is that at this level Gayle is that player. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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