Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Ste]

I don’t understand why him moving to China is used against him when he was desperate to stay here, he just expected the club to be ran like a football club. The club had planned in 2015 to improve the training ground and become the first pro club to have carbon neutral training facilities in the world. By the time Rafa left, they had created a room to encourage players to stay longer at training and bond, and stuck a picture of St James behind Rafas desk. The club had decided to shelf the plans for the training ground and focus the money on the first team. We made a profit on player trading in the time Rafa was here. 
 

Rafa wanted the facilities to be in line with at least Bournemouth. The club let him down. He wanted control over a project the club would have been able to afford easily if we had maximised the potential of the club instead of prioritising Sports Direct advertising and poorly paid shirt sponsors. 
 

He was defensive purely because the squad was poor. When improvements were gradually made, we opened up and played good football. Rafa had compendiums of transfer targets, how many pages do you think you had to turn before you landed on Lazaars name, Sels, Mutos.. 

 

Rafa worked wonders here. I don’t blame him for leaving, I don’t blame him for moving to China, I blame Ashley for using the club as a vehicle for his Sports Direct stores and for placing men in charge of the financials who cared even less about football than him. 
 

We’re so early into our new owners time here, and other than certain sponsorships, they’ve done nothing yet that Ashley couldn’t have done if he hadn’t let our deals fall far behind the clubs we were level with when he bought us. For 14 years of his time here, this club just needed people in charge with the right ideas and a gentle push in the right direction, which is what Staveley and co have done. 

[St. Maximin]

He did a great job here. Find it hard to see why some of our fans would disagree if they were following us closely and seeing the bigger picture. 
 

Doesn’t mean it should always work out for him, or any failure is never his own fault. Whatever you say about Everton’s toxic environment, he hardly helped himself. 
 

Also clearly it’s very open at the bottom, but I wouldn’t be overly confident he’d keep them up as he didn’t in his first season here and typically needs time to let his methods work, if they do. 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by St. Maximin

[Chris_R]

2 hours ago, rgk_lfc said:

 

This is the part I don't like about him. The folks he surrounds himself with, like Owen Brown, aren't exactly the most distinguished scouts. Rafa's record is good, but you can't beat specialized folks running the footballing side of things.  As much as I respect the guy, I don't want to go back to the one person who controls everything model. The way most clubs operate nowadays with Ashworth, Edwards, and their type being in charge of transfers, scouting, and having youth setup independent of the manager makes a lot of sense. 

 

It took us three to four years after he left to wean ourselves of his legacy and move in a different direction, as he practically had control of everything. When Klopp, Howe, or Pep leave, the disruption to other aspects of the club will be minimal. 

 

I don't entirely disagree with your overall point, but regarding the bolded bit, was it because Rafa had control of everything? Or was it because we had Ashley and Bruce, and there was no desire to do anything other than tread water for the minimum possible cost?

 

6 minutes ago, Gawalls said:

Brighton are a classic example of this - they lost potter and ashworth and haven’t even missed them.

 

De Zerbi is doing great, but I think it's way too early to say they haven't missed Potter or Ashworth.

 

Bruce bumbled along fine using Rafa's players and coaching for the first year, it only unravelled after that. Lots of people, especially his mates in the press, were trumpeting the exact "Look, he's doing as well as Rafa, Newcastle aren't missing him at all" message for quite a while until he managed to get his "methods" into the players and everything unravelled. Not suggesting the same will happen with De Zerbi, as he actually does seem good and like a competent coach, I'm just saying you can't really say yet. Same regarding Ashworth - Brighton will be working through Ashworth-initiated transfers for a window or so yet, it's only once that pipeline empties and they have to fill it with new players from the new team that you can really judge it. Again, it may be absolutely fine, but it'll take quite a while to establish that for certain.

[Gawalls]

3 minutes ago, Chris_R said:

 

I don't entirely disagree with your overall point, but regarding the bolded bit, was it because Rafa had control of everything? Or was it because we had Ashley and Bruce, and there was no desire to do anything other than tread water for the minimum possible cost?

 

 

De Zerbi is doing great, but I think it's way too early to say they haven't missed Potter or Ashworth.

 

Bruce bumbled along fine using Rafa's players and coaching for the first year, it only unravelled after that. Lots of people, especially his mates in the press, were trumpeting the exact "Look, he's doing as well as Rafa, Newcastle aren't missing him at all" message for quite a while until he managed to get his "methods" into the players and everything unravelled. Not suggesting the same will happen with De Zerbi, as he actually does seem good and like a competent coach, I'm just saying you can't really say yet. Same regarding Ashworth - Brighton will be working through Ashworth-initiated transfers for a window or so yet, it's only once that pipeline empties and they have to fill it with new players from the new team that you can really judge it. Again, it may be absolutely fine, but it'll take quite a while to establish that for certain.

You’re right time will tell but from the outside looking in it seems Brighton have designed a setup to have no single point of failure the best they can and I believe they’ll be fine.

[magvicar]

12 hours ago, Stifler said:

This is Simon Jordon levels or rewriting of his time/ending at us.

He was out of contract, he had been fucked about under Ashley time and time again and had no faith in him being backed again. As it happens Ashley backed Bruce the summer he left to counter balance how shit Bruce would be and to hope that sheer quality of 2 players which he took backhanders on would counterbalance Bruce’s shitness and lift us above Rafa’s finishes. Even considering that, Bruce only managed to finish as high as he did and not get is relegated because we played 1 and half seasons behind closed doors, and in one of those season most clubs couldn’t have given a fuck and were running the games out.

It is no coincidence that as soon as fans were allowed back, Bruce was taking us down.

 

As for not enjoying the football when he was here. I hear that all the time from the those who never liked him, they forget that fact that our previous managers who allegedly played more attacking football fucked us. Pardew after his usual good start had us fighting relegation for 2-3 years. Carver took us from mid table security in January, to a final day relegation showdown with Hull fucking City.

McClaren finished the relegation job Carver and Pardew couldn’t finish.

Whilst you lot were complaining about Rafa’s inability to be attacking front footed, Conte won Chelsea a title, and Mourinho got one of Man Utd’s shittest ever sides since they were relegated in the 70’s a 2nd place finish playing in a similar way Rafa’s pragmatic approach.

 

 

 

As I mentioned earlier in the posting, I enjoyed some of his time but his football became tedious and with all the other stuff that went on I simply went off him.

As for other managers, I agree some have been abysmal but some didn't start off as abysmal. They actually started off decent.

Pardew included.

Carver was an abomination.

Bruce actually did ok to start with but lost the plot.

 

Rafa did the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

 

[magvicar]

4 hours ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

Did that happiness increase or decrease once Steve Bruce was appointed?

Increased to start with but then again Bruce wasn't my ideal appointment yet came in and gave it a go for a while and did ok at first.

After that we all know what happened. He basically lost the plot.

 

 

[magvicar]

4 hours ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

 

He had a net spend of minus £11m you absolute weapon 

Any idea how much he had to spend including what he took in from transfers since he came?

[Danh1]

2 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Increased to start with but then again Bruce wasn't my ideal appointment yet came in and gave it a go for a while and did ok at first.

After that we all know what happened. He basically lost the plot.

 

 

Would you not say that Bruce benefited from having a squad that had been coached by Benitez for 3 years? Once everything Rafa had installed wore off, that’s when Bruce struggled massively imo.

[jackyboy]

I just loved it when he put his glasses back into his top pocket after the match. An absolute gentleman 

[Danh1]

One thing I’d say about Benitez is that when a “big game” came round, we’d never falter. The Championship season we had Brighton away on the Tuesday, Huddersfield away on the Saturday and either Reading or Norwich away the following Tuesday. 
 

We beat Brighton and Huddersfield (tactical masterclass down there) and drew the other. Class.

[Kid Icarus]

15 minutes ago, magvicar said:

As I mentioned earlier in the posting, I enjoyed some of his time but his football became tedious and with all the other stuff that went on I simply went off him.

As for other managers, I agree some have been abysmal but some didn't start off as abysmal. They actually started off decent.

Pardew included.

Carver was an abomination.

Bruce actually did ok to start with but lost the plot.

 

Rafa did the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

With all due respect, I think anyone who's seen your working out can understand how you might get to that conclusion like, but both the working out and the conclusion are deranged imo. 

[TheBrownBottle]

3 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Increased to start with but then again Bruce wasn't my ideal appointment yet came in and gave it a go for a while and did ok at first.

After that we all know what happened. He basically lost the plot.

 

 

You've lost me now - I'm generally ok with folks not enjoying the football Benitez played etc, but defending Bruce is a line no-one should cross .  'Bruce's team did ok for bit and then everything dropped' - this directly refutes your point.  It took the team time to drop away from what Benitez had drilled into them.  Bruce actively made them worse - a point further proved by the number of players whose NUFC careers Howe has saved since.

[magvicar]

2 minutes ago, Danh1 said:

Would you not say that Bruce benefited from having a squad that had been coached by Benitez for 3 years? Once everything Rafa had installed wore off, that’s when Bruce struggled massively imo.

Absolutely. I'd say Bruce managed to get a bit more out of those players in a bit better way as time went on, but then things started to go downhill for a variety of reasons.

[magvicar]

2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

With all due respect, I think anyone who's seen your working out can understand how you might get to that conclusion like, but both the working out and the conclusion are deranged imo. 

You're obviously entitled to your opinion as are other, as I am. We aren't all going to like some opinions but then again it's all about what one person sees of something against another.

 

 

[Tiresias]

The best footy we played in the whole ashley era (with maybe the debatable exception of the half season when everything Cisse touched turned to goals) was the half season before he left, good coaching was getting players to play above themselves. Best coach of the ashley era no question. I do think maybe Everton stint shows the league has left him behind tactically somewhat, but he had proved flexible with us. Honestly with his football brain and database I wonder if he should be looking for director of football posts rather than manager, he knows his stuff

[Danh1]

1 minute ago, Tiresias said:

The best footy we played in the whole ashley era (with maybe the debatable exception of the half season when everything Cisse touched turned to goals) was the half season before he left, good coaching was getting players to play above themselves. Best coach of the ashley era no question. I do think maybe Everton stint shows the league has left him behind tactically somewhat, but he had proved flexible with us. Honestly with his football brain and database I wonder if he should be looking for director of football posts rather than manager, he knows his stuff

We played some lovely stuff that half season. Would be interesting to see what he would have done the following season had he stayed and been given the money Bruce was to spend on Joelinton and Maxi. 

[magvicar]

8 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

You've lost me now - I'm generally ok with folks not enjoying the football Benitez played etc, but defending Bruce is a line no-one should cross .  'Bruce's team did ok for bit and then everything dropped' - this directly refutes your point.  It took the team time to drop away from what Benitez had drilled into them.  Bruce actively made them worse - a point further proved by the number of players whose NUFC careers Howe has saved since.

I'm not defending Bruce other than to say he came in and did a decent job at first. Benitez did a decent job at first. Pardew did a decent job at first.

Hughton did a decent job at first.

I could go on and on about managers that come in and do a decent job at first.

If that's defending them then Rafa is also in that.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by magvicar
spelling

[FinnMag]

Little bit surprised that he does not return to La Liga.  

[Chris_R]

13 minutes ago, magvicar said:

I'm not defending Bruce other than to say he came in and did a decent job at first.

 

He did not.

 

It just the players took a while to unlearn what Rafa had drilled into them because they're professionals.

 

Bruce was shite from day 1, not just as a manager but as a man: as an ambassador for the club and as a representative of the hopes of the fans. In all regards, he was shite from the start.

 

I can't even believe anyone thinks that's a discussion worth having.

[magvicar]

5 minutes ago, Chris_R said:

 

He did not.

 

It just the players took a while to unlearn what Rafa had drilled into them because they're professionals.

 

Bruce was shite from day 1, not just as a manager but as a man: as an ambassador for the club and as a representative of the hopes of the fans. In all regards, he was shite from the start.

 

I can't even believe anyone thinks that's a discussion worth having.

He didn't set the bed alight but a 13th and 12th position in his first two seasons wasn't terrible.

However he did seem to be losing the plot and the pressure was getting to him because fans were on his back.

He was nothing special as a manager but then again few were.

 

I was as glad to see him go as many were. He lost the plot and seemed to lose his ability to motivate the team or himself by the look of things at the time.

 

 

 

[UncleBingo]

38 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Absolutely. I'd say Bruce managed to get a bit more out of those players in a bit better way as time went on, but then things started to go downhill for a variety of reasons.

Which players did he get more out of exactly?

 

 

[Yorkie]

You only have to compare the season points totals to see that Bruce did just as good a job as Rata, if not better. 

[timinperu]

48 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Absolutely. I'd say Bruce managed to get a bit more out of those players in a bit better way as time went on, but then things started to go downhill for a variety of reasons.

After watching every Bruce game, I am absolutely certain that what you are referring to wasn’t on the football field. Not one player made any form of progress under Bruce. Longstaff? Schar? Ritchie? Wilson? Almiron? Lascalles? And of course what he did with big Joe - stuff of legends? Bruce had his backers in the press, sure, but not within the club nor the fan base. 

[Menace]

People seem to forget Bruce was playing Ciaran Clark ahead of Schar

[Conjo]

43 minutes ago, magvicar said:

I'm not defending Bruce other than to say he came in and did a decent job at first. Benitez did a decent job at first. Pardew did a decent job at first.

Hughton did a decent job at first.

I could go on and on about managers that come in and do a decent job at first.

If that's defending them then Rafa is also in that.

 

I maybe wrong here, and I refuse to read myself up on it as I don't want to refresh my memory of the Bruce "era", but I seem to remember his start being riddled with excuses about players not being able to play his system because they were too drilled in the way Rafa had them play, so he ended up setting the team up very much like Rafa did, without knowing the system or instructions which resulted in the "boring" football and added bonus of not even being defensively solid. Then a few "judge me after x amount of time".

 

Which first period exactly was the good one?