Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[magvicar]

2 minutes ago, Danh1 said:

Would you not say that Bruce benefited from having a squad that had been coached by Benitez for 3 years? Once everything Rafa had installed wore off, that’s when Bruce struggled massively imo.

Absolutely. I'd say Bruce managed to get a bit more out of those players in a bit better way as time went on, but then things started to go downhill for a variety of reasons.

[magvicar]

2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

With all due respect, I think anyone who's seen your working out can understand how you might get to that conclusion like, but both the working out and the conclusion are deranged imo. 

You're obviously entitled to your opinion as are other, as I am. We aren't all going to like some opinions but then again it's all about what one person sees of something against another.

 

 

[Tiresias]

The best footy we played in the whole ashley era (with maybe the debatable exception of the half season when everything Cisse touched turned to goals) was the half season before he left, good coaching was getting players to play above themselves. Best coach of the ashley era no question. I do think maybe Everton stint shows the league has left him behind tactically somewhat, but he had proved flexible with us. Honestly with his football brain and database I wonder if he should be looking for director of football posts rather than manager, he knows his stuff

[Danh1]

1 minute ago, Tiresias said:

The best footy we played in the whole ashley era (with maybe the debatable exception of the half season when everything Cisse touched turned to goals) was the half season before he left, good coaching was getting players to play above themselves. Best coach of the ashley era no question. I do think maybe Everton stint shows the league has left him behind tactically somewhat, but he had proved flexible with us. Honestly with his football brain and database I wonder if he should be looking for director of football posts rather than manager, he knows his stuff

We played some lovely stuff that half season. Would be interesting to see what he would have done the following season had he stayed and been given the money Bruce was to spend on Joelinton and Maxi. 

[magvicar]

8 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

You've lost me now - I'm generally ok with folks not enjoying the football Benitez played etc, but defending Bruce is a line no-one should cross .  'Bruce's team did ok for bit and then everything dropped' - this directly refutes your point.  It took the team time to drop away from what Benitez had drilled into them.  Bruce actively made them worse - a point further proved by the number of players whose NUFC careers Howe has saved since.

I'm not defending Bruce other than to say he came in and did a decent job at first. Benitez did a decent job at first. Pardew did a decent job at first.

Hughton did a decent job at first.

I could go on and on about managers that come in and do a decent job at first.

If that's defending them then Rafa is also in that.

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by magvicar
spelling

[FinnMag]

Little bit surprised that he does not return to La Liga.  

[Chris_R]

13 minutes ago, magvicar said:

I'm not defending Bruce other than to say he came in and did a decent job at first.

 

He did not.

 

It just the players took a while to unlearn what Rafa had drilled into them because they're professionals.

 

Bruce was shite from day 1, not just as a manager but as a man: as an ambassador for the club and as a representative of the hopes of the fans. In all regards, he was shite from the start.

 

I can't even believe anyone thinks that's a discussion worth having.

[magvicar]

5 minutes ago, Chris_R said:

 

He did not.

 

It just the players took a while to unlearn what Rafa had drilled into them because they're professionals.

 

Bruce was shite from day 1, not just as a manager but as a man: as an ambassador for the club and as a representative of the hopes of the fans. In all regards, he was shite from the start.

 

I can't even believe anyone thinks that's a discussion worth having.

He didn't set the bed alight but a 13th and 12th position in his first two seasons wasn't terrible.

However he did seem to be losing the plot and the pressure was getting to him because fans were on his back.

He was nothing special as a manager but then again few were.

 

I was as glad to see him go as many were. He lost the plot and seemed to lose his ability to motivate the team or himself by the look of things at the time.

 

 

 

[UncleBingo]

38 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Absolutely. I'd say Bruce managed to get a bit more out of those players in a bit better way as time went on, but then things started to go downhill for a variety of reasons.

Which players did he get more out of exactly?

 

 

[Yorkie]

You only have to compare the season points totals to see that Bruce did just as good a job as Rata, if not better. 

[timinperu]

48 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Absolutely. I'd say Bruce managed to get a bit more out of those players in a bit better way as time went on, but then things started to go downhill for a variety of reasons.

After watching every Bruce game, I am absolutely certain that what you are referring to wasn’t on the football field. Not one player made any form of progress under Bruce. Longstaff? Schar? Ritchie? Wilson? Almiron? Lascalles? And of course what he did with big Joe - stuff of legends? Bruce had his backers in the press, sure, but not within the club nor the fan base. 

[Menace]

People seem to forget Bruce was playing Ciaran Clark ahead of Schar

[Conjo]

43 minutes ago, magvicar said:

I'm not defending Bruce other than to say he came in and did a decent job at first. Benitez did a decent job at first. Pardew did a decent job at first.

Hughton did a decent job at first.

I could go on and on about managers that come in and do a decent job at first.

If that's defending them then Rafa is also in that.

 

I maybe wrong here, and I refuse to read myself up on it as I don't want to refresh my memory of the Bruce "era", but I seem to remember his start being riddled with excuses about players not being able to play his system because they were too drilled in the way Rafa had them play, so he ended up setting the team up very much like Rafa did, without knowing the system or instructions which resulted in the "boring" football and added bonus of not even being defensively solid. Then a few "judge me after x amount of time".

 

Which first period exactly was the good one?

[Kanj]

The Schar, Lejeune, Lascelles trio at CB with Dubravka in net was class. Imagine if we had been able to get some proper wing backs - Longstaff never got hurt and he was able to play next Merino? Front 3 of Almiron, Rondon and Ayoze. Had the makings of a decent side - that. 

[duo]

1 minute ago, Menace said:

People seem to forget Bruce was playing Ciaran Clark ahead of Schar

[Stifler]

11 minutes ago, magvicar said:

He didn't set the bed alight but a 13th and 12th position in his first two seasons wasn't terrible.

However he did seem to be losing the plot and the pressure was getting to him because fans were on his back.

He was nothing special as a manager but then again few were.

 

I was as glad to see him go as many were. He lost the plot and seemed to lose his ability to motivate the team or himself by the look of things at the time.

 

 

 

In his 1st season we were well in a relegation battle, no one could say that we weren’t going for certain. The league then stopped play and the remainder was played over 2-3 months behind closed doors. A lot of teams came back half arsed, heck a Liverpool team who were running away with the title came back slowly.

It worked well for us, but you have to remember that before that the atmosphere was turning. 10,000 people packed their season tickets in and day trippers were not taking them up, hence why Ashley had only just given away 10,000 half season tickets.

 

Aside from 1 match, the following season was behind closed doors as well. Again that benefited Bruce as he never had that poisonous atmosphere in home matches, and capitalised on away fixtures where there was no home crowd for him to work against either.

 

It’s no coincidence that as soon as the crowds came back he was taking us down. The crowd knew it, and so did the players. How the fuck we never got relegated last season is down too both a lot of luck, and some great management from Howe.

 

There was absolutely fuck all from Bruce to suggest that he was any good for us, he got lucky that circumstances meant he got away with it here. In fact WBA found that out when he took them from fighting for promotion, to on the verge of going to League One, possibly never to return.

[magvicar]

21 minutes ago, UncleBingo said:

Which players did he get more out of exactly?

 

 

Most I reckon.

I think the players were a bit dejected under Rafa. Rafa seemed cold. Bruce at least came in with some zest even amid a mixed reception.

I think Shelvey brightened up and I'll never forgive Rafa for destroying Mitrovic for us.

 

But that's juyst my take as unpopular as it seems.

[Conjo]

1 minute ago, magvicar said:

Most I reckon.

I think the players were a bit dejected under Rafa. Rafa seemed cold. Bruce at least came in with some zest even amid a mixed reception.

I think Shelvey brightened up and I'll never forgive Rafa for destroying Mitrovic for us.

 

But that's juyst my take as unpopular as it seems.

 

He came in and gave the players more time off as I remember it, which Shelvey was a big fan of.

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, magvicar said:

Most I reckon.

I think the players were a bit dejected under Rafa. Rafa seemed cold. Bruce at least came in with some zest even amid a mixed reception.

I think Shelvey brightened up and I'll never forgive Rafa for destroying Mitrovic for us.

 

But that's juyst my take as unpopular as it seems.

Mitrovic destroyed himself by acting like a knacker and generally speaking not being able to hit a cow's arse with a banjo.  He wasn't good enough at the time.

 

He's popped a canny few in the last couple of years for Fulham - but at Fulham he remains; I don't see many teams knocking their door down to get him.  He's an elite level second division footballer, or a decent PL striker these days - but he's hardly the dog's bollocks.

[LiquidAK]

23 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

You only have to compare the season points totals to see that Bruce did just as good a job as Rata, if not better. 

Feel like this is massively oversimplifying things. With Rafa we were on an upward trajectory and the performances matched that. With Bruce he was being pulled out of the fire by Willock going on a mental scoring run and Maxi doing some magic (in Pardew-speak). Just looking at the points doesn’t tell the whole story of how utterly clueless we looked most of the time under Bruce. 

[UncleBingo]

4 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Most I reckon.

I think the players were a bit dejected under Rafa. Rafa seemed cold. Bruce at least came in with some zest even amid a mixed reception.

I think Shelvey brightened up and I'll never forgive Rafa for destroying Mitrovic for us.

 

But that's juyst my take as unpopular as it seems.

 

Most of the players. Fucking hell ????

[Abacus]

I'm not sure if Rafa destroyed Mitro as much as never quite trusted him.

 

You only have to look at how he has just imploded after he had his best PL season.

 

I think there was an element of the players treating the place like a holiday camp after Rafa left. In fact, a literal holiday camp in Portugal - which is fine for a few weeks but not what any professional athlete should be about.

 

And as for Bruce - he virtually destroyed Joelinton's career, a player who now looks almost irreplaceable.

[Abacus]

1 minute ago, LiquidAK said:

Feel like this is massively oversimplifying things. With Rafa we were on an upward trajectory and the performances matched that. With Bruce he was being pulled out of the fire by Willock going on a mental scoring run and Maxi doing some magic (in Pardew-speak). Just looking at the points doesn’t tell the whole story of how utterly clueless we looked most of the time under Bruce. 

And I'm fairly sure he's winding you up

[Yorkie]

Just now, LiquidAK said:

27 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

You only have to compare the season points totals to see that Bruce did just as good a job as Rata, if not better. 

Feel like this is massively oversimplifying things. With Rafa we were on an upward trajectory and the performances matched that. With Bruce he was being pulled out of the fire by Willock going on a mental scoring run and Maxi doing some magic (in Pardew-speak). Just looking at the points doesn’t tell the whole story of how utterly clueless we looked most of the time under Bruce.

 

sake

[TheBrownBottle]

Benitez talked about 'Newcastle United is not a stepping stone'.  With Bruce, it was back to 'unrealistic expectations' and 'can't compete' shite.  Ashley paid millions for a man to be his professional apologist - Benitez actually had enough self-worth and stock in the game not to have to go down that path.  Benitez was a La Liga and European Cup winning manager reminding us of what we are and can be.  Steve Bruce was a Second and Third Division playoffs winner with a truly weird accent telling us that we were deluded.   He can get to fuck, frankly.