Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Dr.Spaceman]

Lock the fucking thread for a week or so

[Chicken Dancer]

9 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

Good point, though don’t fully agree about the outcome of that Man City match. Many weak teams have had a go at home to them and got thumped, but many have got positive results too. I don’t really blame Rafa for that, but it wasn’t pretty to watch and we’d have been far less complimentary to a less successful manager for that. I don’t have an issue with pundits criticising it tbh - more annoyed Bruce wouldn’t get the same treatment. 
 

Also this might differ to others here, but I have reservations over him pointing out the limitations of our squad, which helped him get away with some pretty bad runs of form. There’s often not an awful lot the separates teams that scrape into the top 10 from those in the relegation zone. We had no more of a ‘Championship squad’ than plenty of other teams, or Bruce did at times. 

They only dropped points in 6 games that season to be fair. That was the best version of Pep’s city. 

[STM]

In my book, anyone going out of their way to criticise Rafa, wants their heads checked. I can just about accept that he's not everyone's cup of tea. He's very pragmatic, political and his charisma isn't something people will generally warm too but that's as far as it goes. He was a superb tactician.

 

On the other hand, anyone remotely suggesting Bruce and Rafa were comparable or even defending Bruce is the slightest, wants to get in the fucking bin.

 

Bruce was a fat fraud, who's made his way in management due to one reason, his mates in the ex footballer community. If you didn't know any better, you'd think the disingenuous lard arse used to hold legendary house parties for his team mates when he was Man United captain, thus exonerating him from any criticisms.

 

The two are polar opposites. Rafa was a fountain of footballing knowledge, Bruce a bufoon. Rafa cared deeply for the clubs and communities he was involved with, Bruce cared for himself. Rafa fought against the regime, Bruce worked with it. Rafa developed players, Bruce destroyed them. 

 

Rafa is more a geordie than that cunt will ever be. 

[Heron]

14 minutes ago, STM said:

In my book, anyone going out of their way to criticise Rafa, wants their heads checked. I can just about accept that he's not everyone's cup of tea. He's very pragmatic, political and his charisma isn't something people will generally warm too but that's as far as it goes. He was a superb tactician.

 

On the other hand, anyone remotely suggesting Bruce and Rafa were comparable or even defending Bruce is the slightest, wants to get in the fucking bin.

 

Bruce was a fat fraud, who's made his way in management due to one reason, his mates in the ex footballer community. If you didn't know any better, you'd think the disingenuous lard arse used to hold legendary house parties for his team mates when he was Man United captain, thus exonerating him from any criticisms.

 

The two are polar opposites. Rafa was a fountain of footballing knowledge, Bruce a bufoon. Rafa cared deeply for the clubs and communities he was involved with, Bruce cared for himself. Rafa fought against the regime, Bruce worked with it. Rafa developed players, Bruce destroyed them. 

 

Rafa is more a geordie than that cunt will ever be. 

In a nutshell.

[LV]

4 hours ago, UncleBingo said:

Still chuckling at have-a-go football. ??

Have a go at getting relegated while fucking off to Portugal every couple of weeks 

[MrRaspberryJam]

Magvicar is class. 

[St. Maximin]

3 hours ago, Chicken Dancer said:

They only dropped points in 6 games that season to be fair. That was the best version of Pep’s city. 

Oh aye they were incredible. Playing ultra-defensive is still risky though and only achieved in us not ruining the goal difference too much. They could have easily scored more on another day, though I guess that doesn’t matter as they didn’t. 
 

I’m agreeing by and large with the pro-Rafa comments here thankfully. Just don’t think it should be too black and white (ironically) that his achievements means we shouldn’t be happy with criticism. He certainly has his limitations and it’s fine to recognise those without making out they mean he’s a bad manager. Not like we don’t criticise our favourite players after all. 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by St. Maximin

[LV]

1 hour ago, MrRaspberryJam said:

Magvicar is class. 

He makes me miss @Rod

[MrRaspberryJam]

3 minutes ago, LV said:

He makes me miss @Rod

 

He'll be back. He's just on a 5 day bender somewhere. 

[Chicken Dancer]

5 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

Oh aye they were incredible. Playing ultra-defensive is still risky though and only achieved in us not ruining the goal difference too much. They could have easily scored more on another day, though I guess that doesn’t matter as they didn’t. 
 

I’m agreeing by and large with the pro-Rafa comments here thankfully. Just don’t think it should be too black and white (ironically) that his achievements means we shouldn’t be happy with criticism. He certainly has his limitations and it’s fine to recognise those without making out they mean he’s a bad manager. Not like we don’t criticise our favourite players after all. 

 

 

 

Completely agree with everything you’ve said. He definitely had flaws of which I think stubbornness was the worst. You sort of know what you’re going to get with him too in terms of how you’ll set up, you just need to buy into it as a fan which thankfully we (mostly) did. St James’ never turned under him from what I can remember. I’m sure Bruce would have had some awkward afternoons had it not been for the majority of his tenure being behind closed doors. 

 

I do remember though always having confidence during the bad runs that he’d get it right eventually. Genuinely - despite league positions - I was never once worried about getting relegated under him (excluding 15/16). Just knew he’d get results when needed. The only time I ever really wavered was Leicester at home (think it was the 125 years game), but quickly remembered it was December and we would definitely stay up. 
 

Special bloke who was one of the only shining lights of a rotten period in the clubs history. Love Rafa me, always welcome at mine for a drink. 

[St. Maximin]

3 minutes ago, Chicken Dancer said:

Completely agree with everything you’ve said. He definitely had flaws of which I think stubbornness was the worst. You sort of know what you’re going to get with him too in terms of how you’ll set up, you just need to buy into it as a fan which thankfully we (mostly) did. St James’ never turned under him from what I can remember. I’m sure Bruce would have had some awkward afternoons had it not been for the majority of his tenure being behind closed doors. 

 

I do remember though always having confidence during the bad runs that he’d get it right eventually. Genuinely - despite league positions - I was never once worried about getting relegated under him (excluding 15/16). Just knew he’d get results when needed. The only time I ever really wavered was Leicester at home (think it was the 125 years game), but quickly remembered it was December and we would definitely stay up. 
 

Special bloke who was one of the only shining lights of a rotten period in the clubs history. Love Rafa me, always welcome at mine for a drink. 

Spot on, it’s a shame people would rather be ignorant and not examine why he was so popular here. I do hope he gets another decent job and shows what he’s capable of, though I feel there are some adjustments he might need to make, in line with how football in general has changed. I imagine he’s constantly studying and learning though, rather like our current manager. Really doubt that about the other bloke in between…

[Chicken Dancer]

4 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

Spot on, it’s a shame people would rather be ignorant and not examine why he was so popular here. I do hope he gets another decent job and shows what he’s capable of, though I feel there are some adjustments he might need to make, in line with how football in general has changed. I imagine he’s constantly studying and learning though, rather like our current manager. Really doubt that about the other bloke in between…

Yeah I think time has made people view his time here negatively, completely forgetting how he was shit on like messrs Keegan, Shearer and Hughton before him. He really was one of us, and like someone else has said, 10x the Geordie Bruce will ever be.

 

Sadly I think his stock has fell to a level he won’t get another ‘top’ job, and I do think coaches like Benitez have been left behind by the modern game. Guardiola and Klopp (and others) have revitalised the way everyone tries to play now, and in my opinion probably the only way to be successful is to play the ‘modern’ way. 
 

Conte is the next bloke who will be seen in the Rafa mould. Fans won’t stand for being pragmatic now, especially those of clubs who think they should be at the top end of the table.

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

13 hours ago, magvicar said:

As I mentioned earlier in the posting, I enjoyed some of his time but his football became tedious 

 

 

 

This doesn’t align with my memories.  The last 5-6 months after we signed miggy was the best football we played under Rafa IMO. 
 

- relegation season - style didn’t really matter.  I don’t remember how good or bad we were to be honest.  I was just looking for the points 

- promotion season - we were, if anything, a little negative for the league we were in. We achieved the objective but it was not free flowing.  
- 1st season up. We did what we had to to stay up.  Played well sometimes,   sometimes very defensive. 
- 2nd season first half. Lots of bad luck with results.  Performances ok

- 2nd season second half with miggy.  We really started to play well. With an attacking threat at last.  We didn’t have maxim yet.  Miggy gave us someone who offered something and despite the lack of goals made a huge difference to the style. 
 

We lost Rafa, signed Bruce.  Got maxim so had two good attacking threats and took a huge step backwards in style of play. 
 

Using stats people compare Bruce and Rafa over Rafa’s two seasons in the league.  I think that’s totally unfair as we were a newly promoted team, building and improving.  Stats should compare the rafas last 6 months with Bruce’s time. 
 

Bruce’s football was poor defence.  Conceded 15-20 chances.  Prey they didn’t take them.  Hope we score on the break. 
 

 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by KetsbaiaIsBald

[Guest]

When people compare the Rafa and Bruce seasons, I just think where we'd have been had Bruce taken over from McClaren and I'm guessing 35k crowds in the Championship, him making a pigs ear of promotion, and if he did manage to get us up, what he'd have done with a newly promoted team on a small budget. 

[magvicar]

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

This doesn’t align with my memories.  The last 5-6 months after we signed miggy was the best football we played under Rafa IMO. 

Agreed and I never said Rafa's football was all bad. I said it was tedious for most part.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- relegation season - style didn’t really matter.  I don’t remember how good or bad we were to be honest.  I was just looking for the points 

I had no issues with Rafa in the relegation season. He basically took on a very talented team that was basically ruined by a smug and inept manager who I rate as our worst manager ever just for the irritating smirking when he had to explain another pathetic performance.

I don't blame Rafa for taking us down but I did expect him to keep us up with 10 games to tweak that talent enough to overcome some dire teams, including Sunderland.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- promotion season - we were, if anything, a little negative for the league we were in. We achieved the objective but it was not free flowing.  

I loved that season in the championship. It was almost a breath of fresh air after the last smug manager.

I can still remember the elation of winning it on the final day.

I loved Rafa then, believe it or not and was well happy for him to carry on.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- 1st season up. We did what we had to to stay up.  Played well sometimes,   sometimes very defensive.

This is where I started to get a bit disgruntled, as the season went on but towards the latter part we started to pick up points and finished 10th with football that had me scratching my head compared to how we started off earlier in that season.

 

I just thought Rafa was stubborn in not playing a much better brand of offensive football and concentrating on the negative nearly cost us and would have if he'd never bit his lip and changed it up.

 

I still had time for Rafa, though.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 - 2nd season first half. Lots of bad luck with results.  Performances ok

Not sure about the bad luck. I'd say more reverting to type and being punished.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

- 2nd season second half with miggy.  We really started to play well. With an attacking threat at last.  We didn’t have maxim yet.  Miggy gave us someone who offered something and despite the lack of goals made a huge difference to the style.

Yep we did the same thing again. Struggled and then he went back into offensive mode and we got out of the relegation struggle. But for me we didn't need to get to that point.

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 We lost Rafa, signed Bruce.  Got maxim so had two good attacking threats and took a huge step backwards in style of play.

 

At first I agree and arguments can be had about whether Bruce was incompetent or he really did have to alter Rafa's set up.

I'd say Bruce had a lot of mind to change to get to his own set up and that included the fans as well as the players.

I'll say now it was the wrong appointment for two reasons.

1. He was replacing Rafa who was almost a messiah in some people's eyes but certainly a wanted manager in many people's eyes, which I think was more to do with his stance in football more than what he was offering us on the pitch...but that's just my own opinion.

 

2. Bruce came in as an ex Sunderland manager and a man who once turned us down, so on top of him replacing a sort of messiah, he walked into a bit of a cauldron.

Now I'm not exactly defending him, I'm basically saying what I believe was the case and other people will see it their way.

 

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

Using stats people compare Bruce and Rafa over Rafa’s two seasons in the league.  I think that’s totally unfair as we were a newly promoted team, building and improving.  Stats should compare the rafas last 6 months with Bruce’s time.

Most arguments against managers do come down to stats to close debates but stats don't always tell a full story as we all know.

The thing is though most people will argue and offer up stats for almost anything in a debate so we have to accept that they do play a part when marrying up players or managers or results and so on.

Was Bruce on par with Benitez?

Obviously not if we want to look back in history of other clubs managed, but this isn't about looking back to other clubs it's what was happening at Newcastle with those two, being my focus and I'd say they were as close to par over their stints, in terms of results and performances but I would definitely say I enjoyed the football under Bruce much more than I did under Rafa for most part, premier league wise.

Others may see it differently and that's fine by me.

 

 

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

Bruce’s football was poor defence.  Conceded 15-20 chances.  Prey they didn’t take them.  Hope we score on the break.

Yep, Rafa was more set up defence wise but we also struggled and got away with a lot under Rafa defensively.

Who was the better tactician defensively?

I'd say Rafa for sure but his man management seemed to come second to Bruce.

 

Imagine being defensive and counter attack not just away to difficult teams but also at home. That was Benitez.

 

9 hours ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

[Cf]

13 minutes ago, magvicar said:

Agreed and I never said Rafa's football was all bad. I said it was tedious for most part.

I had no issues with Rafa in the relegation season. He basically took on a very talented team that was basically ruined by a smug and inept manager who I rate as our worst manager ever just for the irritating smirking when he had to explain another pathetic performance.

I don't blame Rafa for taking us down but I did expect him to keep us up with 10 games to tweak that talent enough to overcome some dire teams, including Sunderland.

I loved that season in the championship. It was almost a breath of fresh air after the last smug manager.

I can still remember the elation of winning it on the final day.

I loved Rafa then, believe it or not and was well happy for him to carry on.

This is where I started to get a bit disgruntled, as the season went on but towards the latter part we started to pick up points and finished 10th with football that had me scratching my head compared to how we started off earlier in that season.

 

I just thought Rafa was stubborn in not playing a much better brand of offensive football and concentrating on the negative nearly cost us and would have if he'd never bit his lip and changed it up.

 

I still had time for Rafa, though.

Not sure about the bad luck. I'd say more reverting to type and being punished.

Yep we did the same thing again. Struggled and then he went back into offensive mode and we got out of the relegation struggle. But for me we didn't need to get to that point.

At first I agree and arguments can be had about whether Bruce was incompetent or he really did have to alter Rafa's set up.

I'd say Bruce had a lot of mind to change to get to his own set up and that included the fans as well as the players.

I'll say now it was the wrong appointment for two reasons.

1. He was replacing Rafa who was almost a messiah in some people's eyes but certainly a wanted manager in many people's eyes, which I think was more to do with his stance in football more than what he was offering us on the pitch...but that's just my own opinion.

 

2. Bruce came in as an ex Sunderland manager and a man who once turned us down, so on top of him replacing a sort of messiah, he walked into a bit of a cauldron.

Now I'm not exactly defending him, I'm basically saying what I believe was the case and other people will see it their way.

 

Most arguments against managers do come down to stats to close debates but stats don't always tell a full story as we all know.

The thing is though most people will argue and offer up stats for almost anything in a debate so we have to accept that they do play a part when marrying up players or managers or results and so on.

Was Bruce on par with Benitez?

Obviously not if we want to look back in history of other clubs managed, but this isn't about looking back to other clubs it's what was happening at Newcastle with those two, being my focus and I'd say they were as close to par over their stints, in terms of results and performances but I would definitely say I enjoyed the football under Bruce much more than I did under Rafa for most part, premier league wise.

Others may see it differently and that's fine by me.

 

 

Yep, Rafa was more set up defence wise but we also struggled and got away with a lot under Rafa defensively.

Who was the better tactician defensively?

I'd say Rafa for sure but his man management seemed to come second to Bruce.

 

Imagine being defensive and counter attack not just away to difficult teams but also at home. That was Benitez.

 

 

 

You're allowed to just hold your hands up and say that you're wrong. Much better than digging and digging. 

[magvicar]

6 minutes ago, Cf said:

 

You're allowed to just hold your hands up and say that you're wrong. Much better than digging and digging. 

Wrong about what? What I think and about having an opinion?

It's not really about who is wrong and who is right, it's about the individual feeling of things that happened and things that are happening now.

 

[Chicken Dancer]

1 hour ago, magvicar said:

I'll say now it was the wrong appointment for two reasons.

3. he was a fucking shit manager who deserved to be nowhere near the Premier League, let alone Newcastle

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

1 hour ago, magvicar said:

Agreed and I never said Rafa's football was all bad. I said it was tedious for most part.....

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with a lot of that but it's all just opinions.  It's interesting hearing the debate from the other side.  

 

I was left very bitter with Bruce due to:

 

- his mates media support (I'm sure he's a nice guy 1-1 and that has worked for him)

- false Geordie claims

- being very poor when anyone questions him

- complete disregard to tactics and preparation of the team for a particular opponent

- and mostly being completely unprofessional and leaving our squad unfit for a season.  It really did look like he was looking for his 8 million.  Low salary high pay off absolutely stank of Ashley.

 

 

edit: to the point that I have more respect for Pardew and I absolutely hated him at the time.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by KetsbaiaIsBald

[kingxlnc]

Bruce was barely professional by the end. Maybe it's his weight so he's lower energy and more tired than he used to be - aka lazy - but I know amateurs whose professionalism is way way way over and above Bruce and his clan. The sheer amount of time off, even damning indictments of his own players that they were kind of told to get on with it ('lets play') and very non-detailed suggested he was really complacent and just couldn't give a toss. 

 

The charlatan mercenary nature of not caring COUPLED with the fact he claimed to be a fan in charge of his boyhood club - my God, what would the effort levels be if he had no attachment / no link to the club?! If he was a foreigner he would have been run out of the league by the media, national debates on radio and media about foreign managers getting jobs instead of British managers. 

 

Pardew was slimy and lowered expectations etc but he was still professional. 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. They knew it was a serious club and treated it as such. Even Souness who was horrid for us, you didn't question his effort, you just questioned his ability and temperament.

 

Bruce had neither the ability, nor the temperament... but worst of all, he didn't even have the effort, which surely is the bare minimum. 

Then you have his sheer cringiness of his interviews, and his seemingly invincibility in the media and management meant it just killed the spirit completely.

 

He was truly the icon for a club that stopped trying, symptomatic of its malaise and neglect, the representative of a rotting corpse. 

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

5 minutes ago, kingxlnc said:

Bruce was barely professional by the end. Maybe it's his weight so he's lower energy and more tired than he used to be - aka lazy - but I know amateurs whose professionalism is way way way over and above Bruce and his clan. The sheer amount of time off, even damning indictments of his own players that they were kind of told to get on with it ('lets play') and very non-detailed suggested he was really complacent and just couldn't give a toss. 

 

The charlatan mercenary nature of not caring COUPLED with the fact he claimed to be a fan in charge of his boyhood club - my God, what would the effort levels be if he had no attachment / no link to the club?! If he was a foreigner he would have been run out of the league by the media, national debates on radio and media about foreign managers getting jobs instead of British managers. 

 

Pardew was slimy and lowered expectations etc but he was still professional. 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. They knew it was a serious club and treated it as such. Even Souness who was horrid for us, you didn't question his effort, you just questioned his ability and temperament.

 

Bruce had neither the ability, nor the temperament... but worst of all, he didn't even have the effort, which surely is the bare minimum. 

Then you have his sheer cringiness of his interviews, and his seemingly invincibility in the media and management meant it just killed the spirit completely.

 

He was truly the icon for a club that stopped trying, symptomatic of its malaise and neglect, the representative of a rotting corpse. 

 

Yeah.  That interview with Longstaff when he talks about how depressed he was and then nearly ruined his career was so telling.  For a player to excel under the manager before and after Bruce is really telling.

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

7 minutes ago, kingxlnc said:

 

 

The reason why Gullitt and others get a fair pass by the fans despite not being very good is that you couldn't argue with their effort. 

 

He's still the only manager, I know of, that has refused a pay off and that includes Keegan and Robson.  

[The Prophet]

It was pretty straightforward why Bruce wasn't wanted. Nothing to do with Sunderland, it's because he was a shit, uninspiring appointment. That's all there is to it really. 

[Chicken Dancer]

4 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

It was pretty straightforward why Bruce wasn't wanted. Nothing to do with Sunderland, it's because he was a shit, uninspiring appointment. That's all there is to it really. 

 

Exactly this, and I didn't pack in my Season Ticket when Benitez left...I gave them the benefit of the doubt for a short while. A combination of the Trust's scheme and especially Bruce getting the job made me chuck a ticket I had for 16 years and over 150 points.

 

He was literally the most typical appointment of the Ashley era so I don't even know why I was surprised. Obviously I wish I still had the ticket now, but it's hard to regret something when you know at the time it was something you felt you had to do to try and initiate change.

[Nine]

There’s more to it than this but generally Rafa did a very solid job with the tools he had available, how could he not deploy a defensive style when we had Joselu as our main striker during 17/18? Rafa gets labelled as ‘negative’ because people perceive that he’s defensive under any circumstance.. that’s not the truth. Pragmatic and careful yes, but that doesn’t always equal negative. With a better squad he’d have adjusted here to a much more positive style as we had a glimpse of for 6 months or so when we signed Miggy.