Joelinton

[Lush Vlad]

37 minutes ago, Lotus said:

Got to be honest, I’d sell him and replace him with more technical midfielder but the joy from watching smash through people is quite unique. I giggle at it in a very immature way 😝

I have no idea how the numbers would work. But I’d much rather we sold Longstaff from the midfield and got Big Joe to sign a new contract. Especially if we are going to carry on with the same system. 

[Johny4317]

On 27/01/2024 at 01:59, Dan Gleebals said:

His transformation under Howe has been incredible. However, think he has probably hit his ceiling. Really want him to stay but for the right price, he is the most likely to go given his contract. 

 

Abilities aside, his personality and commitment will be very hard to replace. 

His ceiling? As one of the most effective midfielders in the league?

[TRon]

1 hour ago, Lush Vlad said:

I have no idea how the numbers would work. But I’d much rather we sold Longstaff from the midfield and got Big Joe to sign a new contract. Especially if we are going to carry on with the same system. 

 

So would I but selling Longstaff for £40m might prove a bit harder.

[Lush Vlad]

15 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

So would I but selling Longstaff for £40m might prove a bit harder.

Well obviously not for £40m. Hence why I mentioned the numbers. But people who understand it and seemed interested by it. Have regularly said about selling academy players for FFP purposes. So even if it was for say half that….. Guessing, of course. Then it would still be preferable IMO. 

[Jagten]

1 hour ago, Johny4317 said:

His ceiling? As one of the most effective midfielders in the league?

This is probably a stretch, given he can’t really pass.

[Shearergol]

We love joelinton’s passion, but we could upgrade him by signing someone who could either pass or shoot.

[gbandit]

It’s not just his passion. He’s a phenomenal athlete, he bullies oppositions like few people can and wins the ball back better than pretty much anyone in the league. He’s weak in front of goal but I think his link up play and short passing is easily good enough. Finding a player who has his defensive attributes or even close to them will be extremely difficult if we want to upgrade on his ability going forwards as well 

[TheBrownBottle]

2 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

I have no idea how the numbers would work. But I’d much rather we sold Longstaff from the midfield and got Big Joe to sign a new contract. Especially if we are going to carry on with the same system. 

I wouldn’t and I doubt the club would either, given UEFA requirements for HG players

[TRon]

11 minutes ago, gbandit said:

It’s not just his passion. He’s a phenomenal athlete, he bullies oppositions like few people can and wins the ball back better than pretty much anyone in the league. He’s weak in front of goal but I think his link up play and short passing is easily good enough. Finding a player who has his defensive attributes or even close to them will be extremely difficult if we want to upgrade on his ability going forwards as well 

 

I do agree with this, but if we are not going to sell depreciating assets, then I guess we can just keep on buying and hope the FFP/PSR bullshit won't pull us up on it.

[BonesJones]

Would suck to sell him because his story is not to dissimilar to the club in terms of the rise from shitness to quality. In the role required of him he's a bully, so can't really complain, I don't think there's massive pressure on him to score or assist. His ability when fit to win second balls, I'd guess has been one of the top stats wise. Which works well with our pressing game (when we're not knackered), as there's lot of second balls to be won.

 

He's great at covering for Burn when defending which frees Gordon up more as an outlet. Has weaknesses obviously but we would lose some extremely effective strengths for our system, and finding a player to replace him that can pass and shoot considerably better without splashing huge money is not easy.

[duo]

2 hours ago, Shearergol said:

We love joelinton’s passion, but we could upgrade him by signing someone who could either pass or shoot.

When he is on song - we are on song. Our stop / start season has much to do with him being injured for a lot of it.  He is crucial to the way Eddie wants us to play. Very few players like him.

[Kid Icarus]

As per the Schär song, every needs a Joelinton. You get a creative mid in addition to him, not by losing him.

[Shearergol]

8 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

As per the Schär song, every needs a Joelinton. You get a creative mid in addition to him, not by losing him.

 

Which in a non-FFP world is absolutely correct. Not sure how we fund that technical player though? 

[Johny4317]

17 hours ago, Jagten said:

This is probably a stretch, given he can’t really pass.

His pass % isn’t as bad as you think, slightly less than a Rodri, same as a Mac Allister and more than an Onana! He’s a solid midfielder who makes us look miles better when he’s playing 

[Jagten]

26 minutes ago, Johny4317 said:

His pass % isn’t as bad as you think, slightly less than a Rodri, same as a Mac Allister and more than an Onana! He’s a solid midfielder who makes us look miles better when he’s playing 

Passing % isn’t a good way to evaluate this. Generally, you need some model of his passing “value”. For example, Statsbomb use their “On Ball Value” model (OBV), which aims to describe the downstream xG delta arising from an action (in this case, whenever Joelinton passes the ball). Ignoring the Onana overlay, his passing OBV is close to the worst in the league

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by Jagten

[Nucasol]

5 minutes ago, Jagten said:

Passing % isn’t a good way to evaluate this. Generally, you need some model of his passing “value”. For example, Statsbomb use their “On Ball Value” model (OBV), which aims to describe the downstream xG delta arising from an action (in this case, whenever Joelinton passes the ball). Ignoring the Onana overlay, his passing OBV is close to the worst in the league

 

 

 

 

Statsbomb

 

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

10 minutes ago, Jagten said:

Passing % isn’t a good way to evaluate this. Generally, you need some model of his passing “value”. For example, Statsbomb use their “On Ball Value” model (OBV), which aims to describe the downstream xG delta arising from an action (in this case, whenever Joelinton passes the ball). Ignoring the Onana overlay, his passing OBV is close to the worst in the league

 

 

 

 

Fantasy football has a great deal to answer for, letting stats obsessed knobheads show their face in public, rather than witter away in their parents basement. Just a general observation rather than anything  aimed at yourself Jagten btw.

 

And whilst I agree Joelinton's passing isn’t his greatest attribute, you’re obviously watching a different league to me, if you think he’s one of the worst passers in it.

 

It’s also not his main purpose in the team and there are plenty of other metrics where he's was In the 90th percentile across all of Europe's major leagues.

 

 

[Jagten]

6 minutes ago, Ghandis Flip-Flop said:

Fantasy football has a great deal to answer for, letting stats obsessed knobheads show their face in public, rather than witter away in their parents basement. Just a general observation rather than anything  aimed at yourself Jagten btw.

 

And whilst I agree Joelinton's passing isn’t his greatest attribute, you’re obviously watching a different league to me, if you think he’s one of the worst passers in it.

 

It’s also not his main purpose in the team and there are plenty of other metrics where he's was In the 90th percentile across all of Europe's major leagues.

Inferring latent quantities from noisy data is an extremely valuable skill, common to basically everywhere that matters, which can very definitely afford you at least your own basement. 
 

I think Joelinton is one of the worst starting PL central midfielders when it comes to passing, yes. His out-of-possession game is good and has suited us very well however. 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Never mind FFP, this page is everything that is taking the fun out of football.

 

just watch it with your own eyes, get totally partisan about your own players and how good they are and shit over everyone else’s, no matter how good they actually are. Bonus points for having an unwavering hatred of players from a particular team (like Liverpool)

 

who gives a flying monkeys about these stats. do you enjoy watching someone play and on the eye test do they make the team better.

 

leave the boring stats analysis to the back room teams and the manager 

[bobbydazzla]

I can't enjoy us winning these days because I find myself worrying if our xG is poor and Bruno's heat map shows he was playing as a false 8, pivoting with a 6 and his pass accuracy was lower than anticipated given the %'s achieved by his peer group from all top flight clubs across Europe

 

I know we won at Fulham, but in my opinion most of the stats show it was technically a loss. So I didn't celebrate and spent all day yesterday poring over my spreadsheets with a furrowed brow. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29 by bobbydazzla

[Jimburst]

Stats are good, stop being intimidated by new stuff ya pansies.

 

Everyone knows big Joe isn't an incisive passer. You can tell from the eye test. Those same statsbomb numbers show he's a monster defensively and you can see that too.

[Jagten]

13 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

I can't enjoy us winning these days because I find myself worrying if our xG is poor and Bruno's heat map shows he was playing as a false 8, pivoting with a 6 and his pass accuracy was lower than anticipated given the %'s achieved by his peer group from all top flight clubs across Europe

 

I know we won at Fulham, but in my opinion most of the stats show it was technically a loss. So I didn't celebrate and spent all day yesterday poring over my spreadsheets with a furrowed brow. 

Most free analysis is shit, most people interpreting it don't know what they're doing. I'd recommend feeling however you want, and I would probably be less inclined to engage if I didn't understand the basics of linear models. Enjoy the win, and don't use a spreadsheet. 

[bobbydazzla]

VAR, Stats, FPP and LED advertising boards are parts of the modern game that need reining in. They've gone past the point of curiosity and into something far more demoralising

 

Football is about passion, bias, irrational love, irrational hatred, a little bit of spunk dribbling into the y-fronts when we score a last minute winner, drowning sorrows with our comrades when we lose to those scouse wankers again

 

It's not about 1mm of a boot being ahead of the defenders leg in a VAR review, selling academy talent to balance the books, having hair loss clinics flashed at you every 2 minutes or obsessing over player data numbers that only a scout or performance analyst actually needs to be arsed about

 

 

[TheBrownBottle]

26 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

 

It's not about 1mm of a boot being ahead of the defenders leg in a VAR review, selling academy talent to balance the books, having hair loss clinics flashed at you every 2 minutes or obsessing over player data numbers that only a scout or performance analyst actually needs to be arsed about

 

 

Parklife!

[TheBrownBottle]

56 minutes ago, Jagten said:

Most free analysis is shit, most people interpreting it don't know what they're doing. I'd recommend feeling however you want, and I would probably be less inclined to engage if I didn't understand the basics of linear models. Enjoy the win, and don't use a spreadsheet. 

The problem remains that football doesn’t naturally lend itself to this sort of detailed data-crunching.  It is far too open to interpretation in terms of analysis.  Most of it is just Charles Hughes nonsense on steroids, and English football is only just crawling out from under his shadow.