Allan Saint-Maximin (now playing for Fenerbahce, on loan from Al-Ahli)

[Lush Vlad]

It’s almost as if people and players have different personalities and attitudes. Abilities, attributes and styles. 

[Holloway]

The 'turn' ?

Observations that are plain to see, he's hardly droppable at this stage.

[Lush Vlad]

We do seem quick to turn on players of late. I don’t think it’s always this way. 
 

Not many players have set a high standard here the last year or two. But two that have, are Willock and ASM. Yet they’re going through a below par run of form and they’re getting called crap by plenty of fans. 
 

Tough crowd. 

[Holloway]

I think many of that tough crowd are just a little exasperated at schoolyard dribbles with no end product,and the lack of awareness to learn from it, which is what we are witnessing imo,and it's become elevated because it's crunch time. Willock, I haven't a scooby what's happened there, but I live amongst Gooners and haven't met one yet who has rated him,so maybe he put the cape on to save Brucie

[jackyboy]

For two years we have just packed our penalty box, desperately defending and when we got a chance we just hoofed it upfield to ASM in the hope that he could get something out of nothing and sometimes he did. That was his only responsibility, hanging about the half way line waiting and hoping.

It's going to take time to get this out of his, and some of the other players systems.

[Holloway]

30 minutes ago, jackyboy said:

For two years we have just packed our penalty box, desperately defending and when we got a chance we just hoofed it upfield to ASM in the hope that he could get something out of nothing and sometimes he did. That was his only responsibility, hanging about the half way line waiting and hoping.

It's going to take time to get this out of his, and some of the other players systems.

fair point, he`s a thrilling player, has world class potential if he can improve his finishing and match awareness/vision

[TorchyTBB]

My main gripe with St Maximin is his apparent lack of fitness and the fact that he looks injured every time he gets up from being tackled.  Contrast that with Declan Rice, for example, who bounces straight up and still looks like he could run through brick walls after playing flat out for 90 mins.  If St M had that sort of fitness and mentality, he could be one of the best.

[Lush Vlad]

If Declan Rice had the same ability on the ball and dribbling quality and skills of St Maximin. He could be the best player in the world. 

[Lush Vlad]

16 minutes ago, Holloway said:

fair point, he`s a thrilling player, has world class potential if he can improve his finishing and match awareness/vision

I doubt he will, mind. If he did, he’d be playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world. It is why he is here and not playing for someone like Liverpool or Real Madrid. It was the same with HBA.

 

Most flair players are inconsistent. They often seem to have that maverick mentality and are often referred to as being hard to manage. They are also trying low percentage/high reward passes or moves that basically only 1-2 players on the pitch are usually capable of pulling off. So bar the true world class players. They are not going to be brilliant every game and will be infuriating at times. 
 

I’m biased, mind. Some of my favourite NUFC players have been rogues like HBA, Asprilla and Martins  

[Jaqen]

23 minutes ago, TorchyTBB said:

My main gripe with St Maximin is his apparent lack of fitness and the fact that he looks injured every time he gets up from being tackled.  Contrast that with Declan Rice, for example, who bounces straight up and still looks like he could run through brick walls after playing flat out for 90 mins.  If St M had that sort of fitness and mentality, he could be one of the best.

 

Look at players like Messi, Ronaldo, Mbappe etc they conserve their energy to use in attack. You don't necessarily want your explosive attacking players to be sprinting around madly for 90 minutes. 

 

There's also genetics at play. Stuff like the amount of fast or slow muscle fibres you have will effect your speed and endurance. Rice could run all day but he has nowhere near the speed or exploviness of St Maximin. 

 

Ronaldo is probably the biggest fitness freak in the sport with an insane mentality, he couldn't sprint around all game either. 

[Lush Vlad]

I actually started typing about how maybe ASM has been instructed to conserve energy in the past. But that would have required some sort of tactical thinking on Bruce’s part.  

[MrRaspberryJam]

3 minutes ago, Lush Vlad said:

I actually started typing about how maybe ASM has been instructed to conserve energy in the past. But that would have required some sort of tactical thinking on Bruce’s part.  

 

Is Bruce not the master at conserving energy and doing fuck all, though? 

[Palestoon]

I've always felt the classification of flair players as wasteful can sometimes be lazy. almost every flair player playing for a bottom half club at some point is questioned about their end product. Is it because they actually are bottom half players that lack composure and a clinical touch? im sure yes sometimes that is the case. But i cant help but wonder if sometimes its the optics of it. these bottom half flair players are relied upon to create chances for the their team, and when they dont turn the few they get into something positive, they stand out as wasteful.

 

Compare that to our last match against liverpool. In the first 10 minutes alone, i counted Salah one on one on the wing about 6 or 7 times with a free run at our LB and he produced nothing from them. ASM on the other hand probably gets that chance to go 1 on 1 with a full back 2 times an entire game if we're lucky. the difference is, Salah continues to get those opportunities because Liverpool are capable of creating chance after chance for him at will. Eventually he scores, and there you go. end product... nobody goes back to the other boatload of situations where he produced nothing. wheras with a player like ASM, his mistakes are highlighted because they're one of the few chances our team creates all day.

 

thats not to say ASM and Salah are players of the same level  but theirs definitely something to the team set up that affects how a players contributions appear.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2021 by Palestoon

[TorchyTBB]

1 hour ago, Lush Vlad said:

If Declan Rice had the same ability on the ball and dribbling quality and skills of St Maximin. He could be the best player in the world. 

 

You can't give someone natural ability, but you can improve fitness and mentality.

[Mattoon]

I think some of what's been written about him on social media has been pretty disgusting, but that's what I've come to expect on Twitter, too many idiots with voices but that's a conversation for another day.

 

Most of what has been said is fair criticism though. Is he our best player? Probably. Is he our best chance of winning games? Almost definitely. Is he above criticism? Definitely not. He has probably the hardest job at the moment, cut adrift a lonely figure up front with the burden of creating everything on the break pretty much on his own. It's a huge burden to bare and it must be highly frustrating for him watching the game pass by and having to take on the world when he finally sees the ball. He's definitely let it get to him, he looks frustrated, at times he's looked disinterested, I can't blame him for that but as a professional he can't allow that to happen.

 

It'll be interesting to see how he plays when he has some new signings around him and the sole ownership of attacking intent is not at his door alone. Take some of the onus away from him and hopefully we see the old ASM with a bit more freedom and less opposition players to worry about.

[Lush Vlad]

2 hours ago, TorchyTBB said:

 

You can't give someone natural ability, but you can improve fitness and mentality.

You think ASM didn’t spend god knows how many hours perfecting his craft? Now you just suddenly want him to have a totally different attitude and mindset and play the game like Declan Rice?!  

 

It’s almost as if all human beings are different. 

[Happinesstan]

7 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

I doubt he will, mind. If he did, he’d be playing for one of the biggest clubs in the world. It is why he is here and not playing for someone like Liverpool or Real Madrid. It was the same with HBA.

 

Most flair players are inconsistent. They often seem to have that maverick mentality and are often referred to as being hard to manage. They are also trying low percentage/high reward passes or moves that basically only 1-2 players on the pitch are usually capable of pulling off. So bar the true world class players. They are not going to be brilliant every game and will be infuriating at times. 
 

I’m biased, mind. Some of my favourite NUFC players have been rogues like HBA, Asprilla and Martins  

I said this the other day, but I'd be delighted if he started trying more low percentage passes like the one for Wilson's chance against Burnley.

 

I haven't turned on him though.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Happinesstan

[Guest]

By far our best player for me, but his decision making lets him down. Two occasions the other night on the break where he had a chance to play in Fraser who’d have been through, and he either didn’t see him or chose to ignore him.

[Cronky]

He's a great athlete, and that ability to suddenly change pace and direction often takes him past defenders. That ability is quite separate from the skill of being able to control the pace, direction and timing of a pass to a team-mate. But I think those two abilities get confused when words like 'flair' get used. 

 

ASM is very good at one, but not the other. If he was good at both, he wouldn't be playing for us. It's a matter of accepting his strengths and limitations, and at the moment, with the state of the squad, we haven't much choice but to set things up to make the most of him. As others have said, whether that will always be the right call is another question.

 

Incidentally, I thought HBA actually was good at both. The problem was between his ears.

[TRon]

19 minutes ago, Cronky said:

He's a great athlete, and that ability to suddenly change pace and direction often takes him past defenders. That ability is quite separate from the skill of being able to control the pace, direction and timing of a pass to a team-mate. But I think those two abilities get confused when words like 'flair' get used. 

 

ASM is very good at one, but not the other. If he was good at both, he wouldn't be playing for us. It's a matter of accepting his strengths and limitations, and at the moment, with the state of the squad, we haven't much choice but to set things up to make the most of him. As others have said, whether that will always be the right call is another question.

 

Incidentally, I thought HBA actually was good at both. The problem was between his ears.

 

HBA just didn't take football seriously, otherwise he was one of the most gifted footballers in the modern era. Max isn't really in the same league, talented though he is. With HBA you always felt like if you put the right players around him, he would make a team almost unstoppable. Ba, Cabaye, Tiote, Cisse and HBA together was a pretty formidable collection of players who complemented each other's abilities almost perfectly. Pardew the useless cunt probably couldn't believe his luck. 

[1964]

So is this fucker fit then?  

[TorchyTBB]

12 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

You think ASM didn’t spend god knows how many hours perfecting his craft? Now you just suddenly want him to have a totally different attitude and mindset and play the game like Declan Rice?!  

 

It’s almost as if all human beings are different. 

And I'm sure there's many a lower league player that has spend hours trying to perfect their craft, but they are still in the lower leagues.  Natural ability and mindset/attitude can go together.  Guess we'll just beg to differ on our opinions.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by TorchyTBB

[Lush Vlad]

It’s not really begging to differ. I just still find it strange that you are using Declan Rice, A DM, who has played centre back. As some sort of yardstick for ASM’s way of playing the game, mentality wise. 
 

BTW, I don’t think ASM is flawless. People have already mentioned his decision making. He clearly does have a few fitness issues, it has been said he’s been hard to work with in the past and he does love a sulk and a roll about. But the latter is true for about 80% of modern footballers  

 

I’m just not sure transplanting another player’s personality is the way forward. 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Lush Vlad

[STM]

Would stick with Almiron and Fraser in the wide areas for the next game.

[Guest HTT II]

6 minutes ago, STM said:

Would stick with Almiron and Fraser in the wide areas for the next game.

Would rather stick pins in them all…