Checko Posted Friday at 21:43 Share Posted Friday at 21:43 7th or above is a perfectly reasonable target to aim for, we're about 7th/8th for squad cost and wages so that's roughly where you'd expect us to finish up. It's where we finished last year despite a ridiculous injury crisis and crazy cup draws. Plus with the 4th best goal difference (thank you Sheffield United). I wouldn't subscribe to the 'if we don't achieve the expected 7th you must be sacked' attitude though. There's a lot of randomness in football. Over the course of a season you could easily get 4 points more or less than your performances deserve. That's an 8 point swing, which was the difference between 8th and fourth last year. And sometimes you just have a bad year. Happened to Klopp the year we finished fourth. Happening to Pep this year. Doesn't mean the manager's not good suddenly. So yeah, you definitely look at league placing, but also other factors: overall performances, has the manager improved players, team unity etc. Because ultimately it's not about what the manager's just done, it's about what you think they will do in the future, and last year's results is obviously part of that evaluation, but only part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted Friday at 22:34 Share Posted Friday at 22:34 3 hours ago, Interpolic said: How many of Liverpool's squad were bought for fees of <£5m vs our squad? Because that's your youth products, free transfers on big wages, and young bargains picked up due to elite scouting networks. The sort of activity you benefit from when you haven't been run into the ground for 14 years by a spiteful owner. This is squad space that accounts for very little purchase value. And this is context that everyone who watches football knows about and would apply when looking at that table. Ours will also be top-heavy because we weren't able to do stuff like buy a player like Salah to dominate the league for a decade for 35 million quid. Our record signing at that time was still Michael Owen. At least you are attempting to argue the right point now, although this isn’t about us vs Liverpool who are likely to win the league, it is about why you think us finishing 7th is an unrealistic expectation, when we have the 7th most valuable squad, 7th biggest income and from the stats TCD posted the 7th highest wage bill. You can add to that no European football to distract us. Howe has been backed with an unbelievable amount of money, and was given the benefit of the doubt last season for what was seen as a blip down to being in Europe and the worst injuries of any team in the league, but he now has to deliver. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LionOfGosforth Posted Friday at 22:53 Share Posted Friday at 22:53 15 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: At least you are attempting to argue the right point now, although this isn’t about us vs Liverpool who are likely to win the league, it is about why you think us finishing 7th is an unrealistic expectation, when we have the 7th most valuable squad, 7th biggest income and from the stats TCD posted the 7th highest wage bill. You can add to that no European football to distract us. Howe has been backed with an unbelievable amount of money, and was given the benefit of the doubt last season for what was seen as a blip down to being in Europe and the worst injuries of any team in the league, but he now has to deliver. Aye, not really understanding this point at all. Missing Europe by a c*** hair with all the context you've applied to that means he has to be given the benefit of the doubt? Why? Last season had it's frustrations, some weird games like conceding 4 at home to Luton for example, but I still enjoyed it a fair bit and thought with the extreme circumstances, we over-achieved and scored a shit ton of goals. Didn't see the need for any benefit of the doubt at all. This season is different, much more bumpy and inconsistent but I feel it's getting better and i'm optimistic for the remainder personally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted Friday at 23:02 Share Posted Friday at 23:02 18 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: At least you are attempting to argue the right point now, although this isn’t about us vs Liverpool who are likely to win the league, it is about why you think us finishing 7th is an unrealistic expectation, when we have the 7th most valuable squad, 7th biggest income and from the stats TCD posted the 7th highest wage bill. You can add to that no European football to distract us. Howe has been backed with an unbelievable amount of money, and was given the benefit of the doubt last season for what was seen as a blip down to being in Europe and the worst injuries of any team in the league, but he now has to deliver. Has to deliver what, 7th like he did last year under ridiculously trying circumstances? I didn't say 7th was unrealistic, I said sacking Howe for finishing a place or 2 below that would be completely unreasonable. It's marginal whether us or Villa have spent the most so to say us finishing 8th warrants that outcome is mental. Villa are another one who have had the benefit of huge pure-profit windfalls from their academy btw, unlike us. How long have you been supporting us? Do you realise how incredibly entitled you sound? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted Friday at 23:58 Share Posted Friday at 23:58 Just to sum up my feelings on this as it has been going on for days and I'm finding the opposing argument quite depressing... Howe or any future NUFC manager should only be expected to qualify for Europe (to the extent they'll lose their job if they don't) when they are operating consistently with a European budget. And for now that's not the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted yesterday at 00:02 Share Posted yesterday at 00:02 1 hour ago, Matt1892 said: At least you are attempting to argue the right point now, although this isn’t about us vs Liverpool who are likely to win the league, it is about why you think us finishing 7th is an unrealistic expectation, when we have the 7th most valuable squad, 7th biggest income and from the stats TCD posted the 7th highest wage bill. You can add to that no European football to distract us. Howe has been backed with an unbelievable amount of money, and was given the benefit of the doubt last season for what was seen as a blip down to being in Europe and the worst injuries of any team in the league, but he now has to deliver. Where do you think Man Utd will finish? Using your algorithm they should be top three .... no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloGeordio Posted yesterday at 00:20 Share Posted yesterday at 00:20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted yesterday at 00:27 Share Posted yesterday at 00:27 6 minutes ago, PauloGeordio said: I love you Eddie. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PauloGeordio Posted yesterday at 00:33 Share Posted yesterday at 00:33 5 minutes ago, Rod said: I love you Eddie. He's a top banana. We are so lucky to have him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted yesterday at 06:40 Share Posted yesterday at 06:40 6 hours ago, Interpolic said: Just to sum up my feelings on this as it has been going on for days and I'm finding the opposing argument quite depressing... Howe or any future NUFC manager should only be expected to qualify for Europe (to the extent they'll lose their job if they don't) when they are operating consistently with a European budget. And for now that's not the case. At the end of the season, he would have us 3 and a half years in the role, if we fail to qualify for Europe and finish lower than 7th, it will be the second season running that we have gone backwards. This isn’t acceptable for a club that has invested as heavily as we have since his arrival, and he will be moved on, with nobody to blame but himself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted yesterday at 06:48 Share Posted yesterday at 06:48 6 hours ago, Rod said: Where do you think Man Utd will finish? Using your algorithm they should be top three .... no? It isn’t my algorithm, it was something others said on here as to why it would be unreasonable to think we should challenge the big 6 with their finances, meaning it should be unreasonable for the likes of Villa, Forest, Brighton, Bournemouth and Fulham to challenge us for 7th spot, with our finances. You actually support my point regarding Man Utd, that these supposed big 6 clubs can have poor seasons, meaning that 6th should be possible if they can’t turn their season around, although we would have to turn our own season around too, as despite them having a terrible season so far they are only one point behind us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellis H Posted yesterday at 07:30 Share Posted yesterday at 07:30 Any talk of going backwards makes me remember we were bottom of the league and 5 points off safety when he took over in late November. We didn’t win any of the first 14 games but won 12 of the last 18 to finish 11th. Since that season we’ve finished 4th with a cup final appearance, 8 points off 4th (and a cup final upset away from Europe) and are now 5 points off 4th and in the Semi Finals of the cup. He’s consistently got us challenging for the top 4 and trophies with a top 8 squad. What could he do with a top 6 squad? Or even a top 4 one? I hope we get to find out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troll Posted yesterday at 07:39 Share Posted yesterday at 07:39 9 hours ago, Matt1892 said: At least you are attempting to argue the right point now, although this isn’t about us vs Liverpool who are likely to win the league, it is about why you think us finishing 7th is an unrealistic expectation, when we have the 7th most valuable squad, 7th biggest income and from the stats TCD posted the 7th highest wage bill. You can add to that no European football to distract us. Howe has been backed with an unbelievable amount of money, and was given the benefit of the doubt last season for what was seen as a blip down to being in Europe and the worst injuries of any team in the league, but he now has to deliver. We've not signed a first team player (unless you count Osula/Kelly) since we brought in Livramento and Hall, three transfer windows ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
54 Posted yesterday at 07:44 Share Posted yesterday at 07:44 58 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: At the end of the season, he would have us 3 and a half years in the role, if we fail to qualify for Europe and finish lower than 7th, it will be the second season running that we have gone backwards. This isn’t acceptable for a club that has invested as heavily as we have since his arrival, and he will be moved on, with nobody to blame but himself. You're doing that thing where you're making a subjective opinionated point but are delivering it in a way as if it is a fact, and there is no reason to debate. Yesterday, you said that 7th has gotten European football for 9 out of 10 season, but now you're saying that it Howe doesn't get European football 2 season in a row it's unacceptable. So surely them two things counteract one another and some leeway gets given? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rod Posted yesterday at 07:58 Share Posted yesterday at 07:58 1 hour ago, Matt1892 said: It isn’t my algorithm, it was something others said on here as to why it would be unreasonable to think we should challenge the big 6 with their finances, meaning it should be unreasonable for the likes of Villa, Forest, Brighton, Bournemouth and Fulham to challenge us for 7th spot, with our finances. You actually support my point regarding Man Utd, that these supposed big 6 clubs can have poor seasons, meaning that 6th should be possible if they can’t turn their season around, although we would have to turn our own season around too, as despite them having a terrible season so far they are only one point behind us. God, you are full of shit aren't you? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawalls Posted yesterday at 09:10 Share Posted yesterday at 09:10 10 hours ago, Matt1892 said: At least you are attempting to argue the right point now, although this isn’t about us vs Liverpool who are likely to win the league, it is about why you think us finishing 7th is an unrealistic expectation, when we have the 7th most valuable squad, 7th biggest income and from the stats TCD posted the 7th highest wage bill. You can add to that no European football to distract us. Howe has been backed with an unbelievable amount of money, and was given the benefit of the doubt last season for what was seen as a blip down to being in Europe and the worst injuries of any team in the league, but he now has to deliver. He also took over the worst performing team in the league, we were bottom and that wasn’t bad luck it was well deserved. We’d had 14 years abuse basically and a huge chunk of that money was catch up - not as simple as “ he’s had this cash so he must deliver” imo. There is things he can improve on (stubbornness in picking teams being one for me) but to say sack him when he’s taken us to a well performing cup team and a constant top ten team with so much work to go when it comes to the squad is crazy talk in my opinion. Just be careful what you wish for - I mean just who do you think will take the job if he leaves? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawalls Posted yesterday at 09:12 Share Posted yesterday at 09:12 1 hour ago, Ellis H said: Any talk of going backwards makes me remember we were bottom of the league and 5 points off safety when he took over in late November. We didn’t win any of the first 14 games but won 12 of the last 18 to finish 11th. Since that season we’ve finished 4th with a cup final appearance, 8 points off 4th (and a cup final upset away from Europe) and are now 5 points off 4th and in the Semi Finals of the cup. He’s consistently got us challenging for the top 4 and trophies with a top 8 squad. What could he do with a top 6 squad? Or even a top 4 one? I hope we get to find out. My apologies I replied to a post and didn’t read your post as you basically said a lot of the same things that I did. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checko Posted yesterday at 09:52 Share Posted yesterday at 09:52 Howe made a mistake getting us into Champions League IMO. Should have just got us a solid 8th/9th placed finish in 2022 instead of massively overachieving. Then last year would have been progress and we'd still be on the way up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cf Posted yesterday at 10:28 Share Posted yesterday at 10:28 34 minutes ago, Checko said: Howe made a mistake getting us into Champions League IMO. Should have just got us a solid 8th/9th placed finish in 2022 instead of massively overachieving. Then last year would have been progress and we'd still be on the way up. It's one thing the owners seemed quite grounded about on that documentary. They acknowledged that the CL qualification was way ahead of schedule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Butcher Posted yesterday at 15:52 Share Posted yesterday at 15:52 I'm a fucking idiot mind. Again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Parka Posted yesterday at 15:56 Share Posted yesterday at 15:56 Well done Eddie. I doubt. I idiot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newintoon Posted yesterday at 15:57 Share Posted yesterday at 15:57 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodneyCisse Posted yesterday at 15:59 Share Posted yesterday at 15:59 Would it be rough to drag up peoples thick comments? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave s Posted yesterday at 16:16 Share Posted yesterday at 16:16 next time Eddie has a sticky patch, can we all stop wetting our knickers? give him time to work it out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nine Posted yesterday at 16:23 Share Posted yesterday at 16:23 Mourinho in Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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