Eddie Howe

[TRon]

10 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I think the ‘improving players’ part has long been overstated - Murphy, Almiron, Joelinton would be the obvious ones.  Some don’t look any better than they were when we signed them, and some look worse.  Which you’d expect, that’s how it works. 

 

I’m also not convinced at all that he’s made us better than the sum of the parts he’s had available - you mentioned Chelsea’s midfield; ours hasn’t ever really looked like a unit, but plenty outside of the club have cited it as possibly the best midfield in the PL.  

 

I've long maintained this view. I think it was first mentioned wrt Isak, but you only had to look at his two finishes on his debut against Liverpool to see he didn't need much improving. 

 

He's certainly drilled a work ethos into his players, and he deserves credit for that though. But most managers will get their players to follow some sort of drill, other than Bruce. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

32 minutes ago, Newcastle Fan said:

No other manager survives taking a team for Champions league to a relegation battle after spending nearly 250 million, i don't see why we are making an exception for him especially now we have enough data to know that the minute we are back in Europe he will do the same shit again.

 

I know what you mean but it's not a logical argument. Every manager should be assessed on whether they are a good manager and can get better etc.

 

Sacking is not like a punishment for a certain set of results, so the idea of making an exception isn't really real. Of course in a lot of cases a manager that has had the season we have had would be sacked, but that doesn't tell us anything about our own decision.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

14 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

When does recency bias stop being recency bias ?

 

Do we need 4 x seasons of finishing 13th - 17th to be able to say with confidence that what we're seeing isn't a blip ?

 

Asking for a friend.

 

The answer is obvious, it's about whether you're putting too much emphasis on recency

 

If the whole of Howe's record was bad we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

[r0cafella]

9 minutes ago, Rich said:

I think most pro-Howe people would argue to give him one settled summer and all of next season, unless things were looking terminal at any point. (I’d also be pushing for him to pay Simeone another visit or Enrique a visit in the summer if that’s what it’ll take to see him adapt/evolve our style.)

I think if he stays beyond this summer he will be under huge pressure to keep us thereabouts European places from early doors. 

[TheBrownBottle]

3 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

I've long maintained this view. I think it was first mentioned wrt Isak, but you only had to look at his two finishes on his debut against Liverpool to see he didn't need much improving. 

 

He's certainly drilled a work ethos into his players, and he deserves credit for that though. But most managers will get their players to follow some sort of drill, other than Bruce. 

Good footballers are unlikely to be improved technically by training IMHO.  Relatively poor players are far more ‘coachable’.  I don’t think if Howe inherited a more talented squad he’d have drastically improved them - that doesn’t diminish his achievements in making good players from shite

[TRon]

1 hour ago, The College Dropout said:

As it stands it looks like Howe has shown his ceiling here. It might not be true but that’s what it looks like.   
 

If I was running another club i would have Doubts Howe can play enough football to sustain cup wins and league finishes.   Over indexes on physicality.  
 

This wouldn’t be known pre Newcastle. 

 

 

This has been the big doubt for me. We have done brilliantly well with the high press during Howe's term, but this season whenever we have come up against the better teams in the UCL, they have passed all round our press and made us look average.

 

Watching the game between PSG and Bayern yesterday was an education as well. You could argue defensively it was poor, but the level of passing and movement was something else. Our high press would be destroyed by either team. 

 

Obviously you need the best players to play that stuff, but it is what it takes to go next level. 

[The College Dropout]

It’s the lack of desire to even try. 

[stabmasterareson]

3 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

 

This has been the big doubt for me. We have done brilliantly well with the high press during Howe's term, but this season whenever we have come up against the better teams in the UCL, they have passed all round our press and made us look average.

 

Watching the game between PSG and Bayern yesterday was an education as well. You could argue defensively it was poor, but the level of passing and movement was something else. Our high press would be destroyed by either team. 

 

Obviously you need the best players to play that stuff, but it is what it takes to go next level. 

Excepting the two halves of football - both against Barcelona - first half in the group stage and second half in the r16 match, I don't think that's true, certainly PSG away we pressed well, held our own and arguably deserved to win. Likewise the home knockout fixture against Barca 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

6 minutes ago, TRon said:

 

 

This has been the big doubt for me. We have done brilliantly well with the high press during Howe's term, but this season whenever we have come up against the better teams in the UCL, they have passed all round our press and made us look average.

 

Watching the game between PSG and Bayern yesterday was an education as well. You could argue defensively it was poor, but the level of passing and movement was something else. Our high press would be destroyed by either team. 

 

Obviously you need the best players to play that stuff, but it is what it takes to go next level. 

Comparing us to Bayern v PSG is faintly ridiculous though surely. Maybe in a decade when we have a new stadium and double the revenue. 

[TRon]

1 minute ago, stabmasterareson said:

Excepting the two halves of football - both against Barcelona - first half in the group stage and second half in the r16 match, I don't think that's true, certainly PSG away we pressed well, held our own and arguably deserved to win. Likewise the home knockout fixture against Barca 

 

Pressing that high works for the first 45 mins but it inevitably ends up leaving everyone exhausted for the second half and we end up conceding goals later on. You can see it coming. 

 

Maybe if we had exceptional forwards and we could build 2-3 goal leads then it would work better. 

[TRon]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Comparing us to Bayern v PSG is faintly ridiculous though surely. Maybe in a decade when we have a new stadium and double the revenue. 

 

 

I'm just saying those are the standards being set. It's football how it should be played IMO. 

[bobbydazzla]

25 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

The answer is obvious, it's about whether you're putting too much emphasis on recency

 

If the whole of Howe's record was bad we wouldn't be having this discussion. 

 

Word on the street is: A struggling season stops being “recency bias” when the problems are repeatable, explainable, and not fixing themselves.

 

 

 

 

[dcmk]

44 minutes ago, Zero said:

No elite club would accept a manager / head coach that are proven that he needs extra-long time to turn the corner after a ridiculous losing run - and this is assuming that we really give him time. Bournemouth relegated and he simply walked. 
 

If we sacked Howe (which I don’t want to see) he would be a manager that failed twice.

Failed twice?

 

How could he possibly he tagged as a failure here.  Even if he were to be sacked.. He won us silverware for the first time in 70 years, got us out of a near certain relegation, got us two Champions League campaigns.

 

I don't think anyone rational would consider those achievements as a failure.

[llcoolc157]

Pep last season… didn’t he have something like 1 win in 13 at some stage and a run of defeats the season before…

Arteta.. also had a bad run a few seasons ago and as things stand has won the same number of key trophies as Eddie…

Likewise, im pretty sure Klopp also had a bad run at some point….

Now compare these clubs to the likes of Chelsea, Man U and Spurs over recent seasons… and the numerous managerial disasters weve all enjoyed witnessing there… and how it affected them…

For me this might be the right time to err on the side of caution, back Eddie to turn things round and see if we can kick on again next season…

[Zero]

12 minutes ago, dcmk said:

Failed twice?

 

How could he possibly he tagged as a failure here.  Even if he were to be sacked.. He won us silverware for the first time in 70 years, got us out of a near certain relegation, got us two Champions League campaigns.

 

I don't think anyone rational would consider those achievements as a failure.

Do you really think the elite club would consider these as some marvellous achievement that can ignore his downside shown twice in EPL?

 

If silverware is all it matters, Emery should have a glorious career even after his failure at Arsenal. It took him a long time before being considered as a elite coach again, and yet you can see not all the elite clubs are after him now.

 

Back to your question. To us of course it’s a huge success. No question about that. To those elite clubs? I ain’t sure.

 

 

Edited April 29 by Zero

[AyeDubbleYoo]

12 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

Word on the street is: A struggling season stops being “recency bias” when the problems are repeatable, explainable, and not fixing themselves.

 

 

If you want criteria I guess those are reasonable-ish, problem is forecasting how good the explanation really is, whether the problems are permanent or you back the manager to improve again. Which just leads us back to the question of assessing the manager.

 

But recency bias is still something to keep in mind when asking the ultimate question of how good a manager Howe is (if that' how you want to make the decision). Some people are fine with assessing things just on the last few months, certainly in football we tend to be extremely short-term.

[Robster]

18 minutes ago, dcmk said:

Failed twice?

 

How could he possibly he tagged as a failure here.  Even if he were to be sacked.. He won us silverware for the first time in 70 years, got us out of a near certain relegation, got us two Champions League campaigns.

 

I don't think anyone rational would consider those achievements as a failure.

People have lost their minds

[andycap]

19 minutes ago, dcmk said:

Failed twice?

 

How could he possibly he tagged as a failure here.  Even if he were to be sacked.. He won us silverware for the first time in 70 years, got us out of a near certain relegation, got us two Champions League campaigns.

 

I don't think anyone rational would consider those achievements as a failure.

You forgot put us in a near certain relegation. 😂 

[Wallsendmag]

12 hours ago, dcmk said:

4 out of 5 seasons is a case for overperforming.

 

This season has been broken for a multitude of reasons.  But it sounds like you only consider as of right now.

 

As of right now is what's most important though. What happened 3 or 4 years ago is largely irrelevant when discussing our problems here and and now as it's so long ago in the past. In fact most PL clubs have probably changed managers in that timescale such is the nature of the game.

[TheBrownBottle]

2 hours ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

Fair enough. I think it can be deceptive though totting up transfer fees, given what he inherited squad wise.

For me, he has gotten ‘a quart out of a pint pot’ for us with some wonderful campaigns and occasional miraculous performances/results with only a smattering of true quality through the squad; plus many of those have been out for long periods through his reign. 
Eddie Howe with a Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, or Liverpool squad—plus the experience he has accrued with us— would be more a force to be reckoned with than ‘wouldn’t last a season’. 

 

 

 

Honestly, you could well be right mate.  I can’t sit here and go ‘nah, you’re totally wrong’.  I suspect he’d struggle but it’s just my view 👍

[Holloway]

Language is very important isn't it, when three quarters of a billion or quarter of a billion is typed out instead of 750m or 250m, it tells you all you need to know,really 😉

[AyeDubbleYoo]

25 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said:

 

As of right now is what's most important though. What happened 3 or 4 years ago is largely irrelevant when discussing our problems here and and now as it's so long ago in the past. In fact most PL clubs have probably changed managers in that timescale such is the nature of the game.

 

I don't get this argument. Just because football clubs usually only think about the last 6 months and sack people quickly, it's obviously the right thing to do? 

 

We have an opportunity here to show some patience, improve the infrastructure around the manager and see what could happen. As @llcoolc157 said above, some top managers have had down periods before kicking on again. It's obviously not guaranteed but it could happen. 

 

If sacking was such an obvious option it wouldn't generate this debate. 

[dcmk]

54 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said:

 

As of right now is what's most important though. What happened 3 or 4 years ago is largely irrelevant when discussing our problems here and and now as it's so long ago in the past. In fact most PL clubs have probably changed managers in that timescale such is the nature of the game.

When you have a proven figure though in Howe, it's usually enough to reflect on his  entire body of work here, to understand that this season is an outlier and to get the issues resolved in the summer.

[dcmk]

1 hour ago, Zero said:

Do you really think the elite club would consider these as some marvellous achievement that can ignore his downside shown twice in EPL?

 

If silverware is all it matters, Emery should have a glorious career even after his failure at Arsenal. It took him a long time before being considered as a elite coach again, and yet you can see not all the elite clubs are after him now.

 

Back to your question. To us of course it’s a huge success. No question about that. To those elite clubs? I ain’t sure.

 

 

 

It's all relative though.

 

We were fighting relation not so long ago. And then subsequently our season targets have been top 10. Our budgets are tiny in comparison to those elite clubs.

 

They have been elite for 20+ years.  To even break into that group for our CL qualification seasons is a massive thing.

 

 

[Zero]

2 minutes ago, dcmk said:

It's all relative though.

 

We were fighting relation not so long ago. And then subsequently our season targets have been top 10. Our budgets are tiny in comparison to those elite clubs.

 

They have been elite for 20+ years.  To even break into that group for our CL qualification seasons is a massive thing.

 

 

 

I don’t deny that, massive for us as well, which is why I doubt the elite clubs would consider that as massive. For mid table teams that is massive.

 

Howe would have no problem to get a job for Brentford / Everton etc. Just like Moyes.