greydos Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 I just don’t think this whole “we’re keeping our power dry for the summer” argument really cuts it. There’s clearly time and place for buying players to get you through a short-term problem, Chris Wood is recent successful proof of that, arguably Targett and Burn also. There’s no guarantee a long term target will come to us in the summer. And the idea the owners have a master plan for advancing to champions league and staying there in future is tantamount to saying they can accurately predict the future performance of other teams and so know that, even if Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and Brighton improve, because of a few commercial contracts signed we’ll be sustainably better than those sides on the pitch. There can be no such guarantee! A January disappointment Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 5 minutes ago, Scotty66 said: We couldn't have kept Shelvey as he wanted to leave. Howe told him he can't go but Shelvey said he wanted a new challenge so Howe had no choice. Yes we should have got a replacement but there's obviously valid reasons for why we didn't get it done. Exactly. Shelvey begged to go at the 11th hour. We didn’t have time to get anyone in because of that. You can’t just magic a loan up out of thin air and on top of that we are really particular about who we get in. People are being unrealistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 People continue to miss the point re: shelvey. The point is we need a squad, with options who we know can contribute at PL level. Shelvey was that, as recently as our great run last season. We’ve made a money move to get rid, fine; but it’s a gamble and now we have to pay for that gamble by relying on crap players. I therefore conclude it wasn’t an intelligent gamble in all the circumstances. It’s really simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWMag Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Everyone keeps saying we have 4 CM’s, we have 5. Howe has said Anderson is a CM so whether you think he is up to it or not, the clubs view is we have 5 CM’s, and if we play 4231 we only need 2 of them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Keeping Shelvey would have meant our squad was stronger, that much is obvious, how much stronger is up for debate but whilst it would have been better for now the chances are we would have in the summer then been stuck with a player on high wages The player wanting to move combined with the opportunity to remove high wages without losing someone of real importance meant selling him made sense Now in the summer his spot is easier to replace than if we were still lumbered with him (Also worth noting for next season Gordon and Ashby will take up a squad space) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Anderson isn’t good enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUHRLYASLEEVESUP Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Shelvey wasn't fit was he ? or am I just stupid but how is this even a discussion? he's a tampax player Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERTOON Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 6 minutes ago, NWMag said: Everyone keeps saying we have 4 CM’s, we have 5. Howe has said Anderson is a CM so whether you think he is up to it or not, the clubs view is we have 5 CM’s, and if we play 4231 we only need 2 of them We have played 4 of them non stop for the last few months though so that in itself is an issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERTOON Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 1 minute ago, RUHRLYASLEEVESUP said: Shelvey wasn't fit was he ? or am I just stupid but how is this even a discussion? he's a tampax player Because he’s fit now and would have been an option for the rest of the season Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 6 minutes ago, Theregulars said: People continue to miss the point re: shelvey. The point is we need a squad, with options who we know can contribute at PL level. Shelvey was that, as recently as our great run last season. We’ve made a money move to get rid, fine; but it’s a gamble and now we have to pay for that gamble by relying on crap players. I therefore conclude it wasn’t an intelligent gamble in all the circumstances. It’s really simple. Everything you say is correct apart from one thing.... long term. By keeping Shelvey (who begged to leave) and playing him, we would have triggered a contract extension. He was a player with no future at the club, on high wages and needed moved on. If losing Shelveys 100k? wages gives us even more wriggle room for signings in the summer, it was worth the gamble. Would Shelvey have seen us get top 4? I think it's hard to tell but IMO the owners (Ashworth) aren't going to make decisions based on that point. It wasn't even on the horizon at the start of the season and they won't change their plans and "gamble" on anything. The process is thought through and they won't budge from it, nor should they. We are only going in one direction, a moment of short term discomfort for long term success is well worth it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUHRLYASLEEVESUP Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Just now, SUPERTOON said: Because he’s fit now and would have been an option for the rest of the season For a week or say perhaps, hes had 7 seasons of underachievement, injury & disappointment (save the championship season) he wasn't imo a viable option, but I know nowt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, RUHRLYASLEEVESUP said: Shelvey wasn't fit was he ? or am I just stupid but how is this even a discussion? he's a tampax player Again, played yesterday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Just now, RUHRLYASLEEVESUP said: For a week or say perhaps, hes had 7 seasons of underachievement, injury & disappointment (save the championship season) he wasn't imo a viable option, but I know nowt How do you think he performed after Howe arrived last season? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RUHRLYASLEEVESUP Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, Theregulars said: Again, played yesterday. Sub no ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 4 minutes ago, RUHRLYASLEEVESUP said: Sub no ? Yes; and the entire point I’m making is that we need a squad. So, to spell that out more clearly, we need to have substitutes who can come in and operate at a premier league level when our starters are injured or suspended. We now have 2 CM starters out, so having a roster of 4 for 3 places was not an intelligent gamble. We’ve not made big enough money on Shelvey to make it worthwhile in my view. People will now bleat “but FFP!” - fine, then recruit intelligently. Get a loan or find a young gem. The board and manager - who, again, have been brilliant in their tenures to date - have left us stupidly short. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, Theregulars said: How do you think he performed after Howe arrived last season? I’ll give you a clue: well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 14 minutes ago, STM said: Everything you say is correct apart from one thing.... long term. By keeping Shelvey (who begged to leave) and playing him, we would have triggered a contract extension. He was a player with no future at the club, on high wages and needed moved on. If losing Shelveys 100k? wages gives us even more wriggle room for signings in the summer, it was worth the gamble. Would Shelvey have seen us get top 4? I think it's hard to tell but IMO the owners (Ashworth) aren't going to make decisions based on that point. It wasn't even on the horizon at the start of the season and they won't change their plans and "gamble" on anything. The process is thought through and they won't budge from it, nor should they. We are only going in one direction, a moment of short term discomfort for long term success is well worth it. I proposed we kept him until season’s end. If his automatic extension kicked in, so be it; we make it clear to him that he’s not getting many minutes and should look for a club during the summer. Howe was clearly prepared to trigger the extension, which suggests they weren’t that concerned about it. I don’t think Shelvey by himself would have got us into the top 4, of course not. But I think he could be a squad player in an upstart team that gets there before growing, yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coffee_Johnny Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 33 minutes ago, Theregulars said: People continue to miss the point re: shelvey. The point is we need a squad, with options who we know can contribute at PL level. Shelvey was that, as recently as our great run last season. We’ve made a money move to get rid, fine; but it’s a gamble and now we have to pay for that gamble by relying on crap players. I therefore conclude it wasn’t an intelligent gamble in all the circumstances. It’s really simple. So is balancing the books in terms of wages and numbers. Also respecting a player’s wish to leave. Hasn’t really featured much this season so probably on balance seemed the right option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 44 minutes ago, LV said: Exactly. Shelvey begged to go at the 11th hour. We didn’t have time to get anyone in because of that. You can’t just magic a loan up out of thin air and on top of that we are really particular about who we get in. People are being unrealistic. We've needed a midfielder even before Shelvey said he wanted to go Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 He hasn’t featured as much because he was injured. Howe repeatedly said that shelvey was a big player for us and that his return would help. Again, I understand the financial argument and the argument that Shelvey wanted to take the longer contract. However, we held the cards, and I think we should have stood firm. It’s not a huge forbearance on him to play for us instead of nottingham forest for a further 4/5 months. In theory it’s nice to grant his wishes, but I’d rather not be nice when it means weakening our chances this season. All in all, in my opinion it looks a bad decision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 1 minute ago, joeyt said: We've needed a midfielder even before Shelvey said he wanted to go Precisely! We’ve now a need for 2, not 1. Bad decision. Like I’ve said, you’re just not allowed to criticise Howe and the board without provoking an avalanche of accusations of entitlement, lacking perspective and overhyping shelvey (a PL regular for most of his 14 year career, by the way). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SUPERTOON Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Theregulars said: Precisely! We’ve now a need for 2, not 1. Bad decision. Like I’ve said, you’re just not allowed to criticise Howe and the board without provoking an avalanche of accusations of entitlement, lacking perspective and overhyping shelvey (a PL regular for most of his 14 year career, by the way). Don’t even think this is a criticism of Howe tbh, I don’t think he would have let Shelvey go. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 47 minutes ago, LV said: Exactly. Shelvey begged to go at the 11th hour. We didn’t have time to get anyone in because of that. You can’t just magic a loan up out of thin air and on top of that we are really particular about who we get in. People are being unrealistic. Firstly, stop saying he “begged”. It’s stupidly emotive. He politely asked and set out his case. Secondly, the fact he asked so late should support the argument that we should have said no. Too late to replace him. The manager himself has said it’s a big gamble and he’s not comfortable with it. Stop trying to excuse them - they’ve made a mistake and it’s plain as day. All parties involved have shown their inexperience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 Just now, SUPERTOON said: Don’t even think this is a criticism of Howe tbh, I don’t think he would have let Shelvey go. I’m criticising Howe, who said that he agreed to let Shelvey go. I think it was an overly-emotional decision from Howe. He should have stood firm, and politely declined the request. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LV Posted February 12, 2023 Share Posted February 12, 2023 1 minute ago, Theregulars said: I’m criticising Howe, who said that he agreed to let Shelvey go. I think it was an overly-emotional decision from Howe. He should have stood firm, and politely declined the request. Overly emotional? He said no at first and Jonjo begged him to be let go. That’s not an overly emotional response. You want to keep an unhappy player? Because that won’t work. He’d been here years and wanted to go. Right decision in my opinion and just unfortunately too late in the day to get a replacement of the calibre we want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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