Sven Botman back late December/early January 'at the earliest' (Howe)

[Cf]

5 minutes ago, Zero said:

I don’t know why, but you sounds like no one has to be blamed for this, and, most importantly, if such event occurs again, another 50/50 situation (which I don’t agree), everyone involved should act the same and take the gamble again.

 

So what’s the lesson learnt?

 

 

 

Because sometimes you have no good options. 

 

In hindsight we should have probably gone the surgery route. But the key point is this would also have been a gamble. The surgery could have complications, it might be a success but he comes back not the same, he'd obviously be out longer, etc. 

 

As I said there's no blanket rule in this scenario and it's a case by case basis. Presented with the various pieces of advice the player went down the no surgery route. Had every piece of advice been "you need surgery" he'd have had it. 

[madras]

2 minutes ago, High Five o said:

We kind of pay him shitloads for his body to play football. If a doctor tell him to do surgery he should follow that advice. If not the club should walk away from the contract.
 

Not saying it was a clear case here, but fucking hell the thought of footballers themselves deciding how an injury is treated is wild?

What if the doctors jury was split between surgery or rest ?

[nufcjmc]

When pressed on the issue eddie has said clearly you can't make a player have surgery while hindsight is a wonderful thing it doesn't sound like a failing of the club  if they cannot force someone contractually or not to do it.

 

The annoyance for me is he was still out for a very long time resting/rehab etc so it isn't like the no surgery was a short term solution either he could have been back before the end the season or for preseason if he had of just got it done. 

[joeyt]

Wonder if the Euros would have played a part in Botman's thinking?

 

If he got the surgery in September he would have close to no chance of making the Euros

[Abacus]

At least we've probably used up all our bad luck for a decade this season already.

 

And, re the surgery, I think in a lot of ways I'd be less worried about him coming back from it a different player, so hopefully he can keep his morale up during the lay off. Not only have ACL treatments come on in leaps and bounds but he's never been one to rely on explosive pace in the first place, but more on his intelligence and positioning.

 

(Anxiously awaits news of a freak brain injury on his way to the hospital.)

[Dr Jinx]

I’d be fairly pissed off if I was Botman reading those quotes today. Regardless of what happens, the manager must always shield blame from a player unless it’s something absolutely mental.

[Keegans Export]

41 minutes ago, High Five o said:

We kind of pay him shitloads for his body to play football. If a doctor tell him to do surgery he should follow that advice. If not the club should walk away from the contract.
 

Not saying it was a clear case here, but fucking hell the thought of footballers themselves deciding how an injury is treated is wild?

Sorry, this is an absolutely mental take. Every patient has the right to decide what treatments they do or don't have.

 

A footballer is a human being. The medical staff are registered professionals and any surgeons are required to act the same whether they are treating a footballer, a builder or a homeless guy on the street. The patient is given the pros and cons of each option and must make that decision themselves. A medical professional isn't there to convince them or make the decision for them. 

[et tu brute]

27 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

Sorry, this is an absolutely mental take. Every patient has the right to decide what treatments they do or don't have.

 

A footballer is a human being. The medical staff are registered professionals and any surgeons are required to act the same whether they are treating a footballer, a builder or a homeless guy on the street. The patient is given the pros and cons of each option and must make that decision themselves. A medical professional isn't there to convince them or make the decision for them. 

That's all fair enough, but then tell him that due to the injury and a duty of care based on medical advice, that he won't be available for selection.

[gjohnson]

3 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

That's all fair enough, but then tell him that due to the injury and a duty of care based on medical advice, that he won't be available for selection.

Unlikely situation, but maybe he's one of those that sees playing football as a job and little else. I doubt it, but if I was told I could take 6-9 months off on full pay I wouldn't be arguing. 

[Arknor]

just need Eddie to get injured and my bingo card is complete 

[gjohnson]

1 hour ago, Abacus said:

At least we've probably used up all our bad luck for a decade this season already.

 

And, re the surgery, I think in a lot of ways I'd be less worried about him coming back from it a different player, so hopefully he can keep his morale up during the lay off. Not only have ACL treatments come on in leaps and bounds but he's never been one to rely on explosive pace in the first place, but more on his intelligence and positioning.

 

(Anxiously awaits news of a freak brain injury on his way to the hospital.)

Bad luck used in for a decade in a season?....Clearly haven't been around NUFC for long. We are the MASTERS of "bad luck". A chance for glory comes our way and thers always a monumental f**k up that comes our way. 

[High Five o]

50 minutes ago, Keegans Export said:

Sorry, this is an absolutely mental take. Every patient has the right to decide what treatments they do or don't have.

 

A footballer is a human being. The medical staff are registered professionals and any surgeons are required to act the same whether they are treating a footballer, a builder or a homeless guy on the street. The patient is given the pros and cons of each option and must make that decision themselves. A medical professional isn't there to convince them or make the decision for them. 

Well of course.

But then being a professional footballer might not be for you.

 

“I just broke my leg, I do not want an operation, but please continue paying me 100k a week for the next 5 years.”

 

Its not happening man?

 

 

[High Five o]

1 hour ago, madras said:

What if the doctors jury was split between surgery or rest ?

As I said, this case is not clear cut and I do not criticize Botman or the club here.

 

Just the idea some her say that it’s 100% up to the player what treatment they receive is absolutely mental.

 

I know at the end of the day it’s they who decide, but then they probably would be released from the club not following the medical advice.

[Hhtoon]

2 hours ago, madras said:

But where's the blame ?

 

2 hours ago, Kanji said:

On Nickson for scouting him obv. 

 

Direct trace back to mama Botman IMO

[Keegans Export]

20 minutes ago, High Five o said:

As I said, this case is not clear cut and I do not criticize Botman or the club here.

 

Just the idea some her say that it’s 100% up to the player what treatment they receive is absolutely mental.

 

I know at the end of the day it’s they who decide, but then they probably would be released from the club not following the medical advice.

Replace "player" with "patient". From a medical perspective there is no difference. 

 

And you can't coerce/threaten the patient to do what you want either. Bench him, yes fair enough, if you believe it's in his best interests, but you can't sack him.

[Abacus]

34 minutes ago, gjohnson said:

Bad luck used in for a decade in a season?....Clearly haven't been around NUFC for long. We are the MASTERS of "bad luck". A chance for glory comes our way and thers always a monumental f**k up that comes our way. 

Sadly, or happily, I've been around NUFC for a long time. I've not seen any combination of shit luck like this before.

 

And I say this having still enjoyed an amazing European adventure, two decent cup runs and still  the chance of a crack at some sort of European football next season.

 

This season is one of what ifs, and as they say, it's the hope that kills you.

[et tu brute]

56 minutes ago, gjohnson said:

Unlikely situation, but maybe he's one of those that sees playing football as a job and little else. I doubt it, but if I was told I could take 6-9 months off on full pay I wouldn't be arguing. 

I've got no doubt he wanted to play especially with the Euros coming up. I'm not blaming him by the way, Im

saying he should have been told that he would not be selected. It was blatantly obvious it was not right and this has been discussed on here and through the media for months.

[Geordie Ahmed]

16 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

I've got no doubt he wanted to play especially with the Euros coming up. I'm not blaming him by the way, Im

saying he should have been told that he would not be selected. It was blatantly obvious it was not right and this has been discussed on here and through the media for months.

 

I presume if the medical advice was clear cut that surgery is required then he would have gotten it done

 

Much like now, he's obviously been told surgery is needed 

 

However, if he's had mixed advice then I can't blame him for going with the one that doesn't require surgery 

 

A lesson for the club is probably not to trust the medical professional that reckons rest was the solution because me as a layman knew that was asking got a trouble 

[et tu brute]

5 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

 

I presume if the medical advice was clear cut that surgery is required then he would have gotten it done

 

Much like now, he's obviously been told surgery is needed 

 

However, if he's had mixed advice then I can't blame him for going with the one that doesn't require surgery 

 

A lesson for the club is probably not to trust the medical professional that reckons rest was the solution because me as a layman knew that was asking got a trouble 

You can only go off what Howe stated today and he quoted the medical team said he needed surgery. I honestly don't understand why people are trying to say it was acceptable what has happened. It's obviously been a monumental fuck up and I've no doubt the club will be having their own internal investigation. 

[Cf]

10 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

You can only go off what Howe stated today and he quoted the medical team said he needed surgery. I honestly don't understand why people are trying to say it was acceptable what has happened. It's obviously been a monumental fuck up and I've no doubt the club will be having their own internal investigation. 

 

The medical team will have recommended surgery on balance from the advice they had all received. But it won't have been a clear cut you definitely need surgery. 

 

There's a lot more nuance to it than some people are making out and it's why I don't find Howe's comments helpful the way he's seemingly made out that Botman overruled the club and this is some sort of crisis of management. 

 

This sort of discussion about whether an injury requires surgery or not probably happens all the time. We obviously aren't privy to such conversations. It's just not that often that this is the outcome. 

[et tu brute]

13 minutes ago, Cf said:

 

The medical team will have recommended surgery on balance from the advice they had all received. But it won't have been a clear cut you definitely need surgery. 

 

There's a lot more nuance to it than some people are making out and it's why I don't find Howe's comments helpful the way he's seemingly made out that Botman overruled the club and this is some sort of crisis of management. 

 

This sort of discussion about whether an injury requires surgery or not probably happens all the time. We obviously aren't privy to such conversations. It's just not that often that this is the outcome. 

I'm privy to my eyes which saw obvious problems and I heard Howe today state the medical team said he needed surgery. If you want to think something else that's entirely up to you. I stick to my point that it's been a monumental fuck up which will probably see a player miss an entire season.

 

 

Edited March 29 by et tu brute

[Kanj]

I honestly give up here. 
 

multiple specialists had conflicting views. Club said get the op. He chose another option. He rested and rehabbed. He didn’t play until the club and doctors cleared him to play. This only after many months of rest rehab and scans done locally and with approved medical professionals. 
 

now the club could have still said nah we’re not playing you Sven, even after all these months. But they didn’t, did they? Because the medical team and club all looked at the facts and said he could play. 

[Sibierski]

On 20/03/2024 at 19:29, Sibierski said:

Christ, stop leaving it to the bloody players to decide if they’re fit or not  Like asking a player after they’ve been knocked out if they’re good to play, they will say yes.

 

[Andy]

 

10 minutes ago, Kanji said:

I honestly give up here. 
 

multiple specialists had conflicting views. Club said get the op. He chose another option. He rested and rehabbed. He didn’t play until the club and doctors cleared him to play. This only after many months of rest rehab and scans done locally and with approved medical professionals. 
 

now the club could have still said nah we’re not playing you Sven, even after all these months. But they didn’t, did they? Because the medical team and club all looked at the facts and said he could play. 

 

Good assesment. Definitely seems to me that the club did everything they realistically could have. These things aren't black and white, all they could do is mitigate the risk if the specialists couldn't come to a conclusive recommendation and the player himself didn't want to undergo surgery. 

 

From Botman's perspective, it also makes perfect sense that he'd want to continue playing if he felt capable, he's a professional and the Euros are coming up. 

 

It could have went either way, as I'm sure it does in many cases that we never hear about. 

[High Five o]

2 hours ago, Keegans Export said:

Replace "player" with "patient". From a medical perspective there is no difference. 

 

And you can't coerce/threaten the patient to do what you want either. Bench him, yes fair enough, if you believe it's in his best interests, but you can't sack him.

I don’t care from a medical perspective, all know a doctor cannot force you to do surgery. But from an employee perspective I believe a PL club have something in the contract that states that a player can not refuse treatment for an injury that is treatable….