Sven Botman

[Hhtoon]

2 hours ago, madras said:

But where's the blame ?

 

2 hours ago, Kanji said:

On Nickson for scouting him obv. 

 

Direct trace back to mama Botman IMO

[Keegans Export]

20 minutes ago, High Five o said:

As I said, this case is not clear cut and I do not criticize Botman or the club here.

 

Just the idea some her say that it’s 100% up to the player what treatment they receive is absolutely mental.

 

I know at the end of the day it’s they who decide, but then they probably would be released from the club not following the medical advice.

Replace "player" with "patient". From a medical perspective there is no difference. 

 

And you can't coerce/threaten the patient to do what you want either. Bench him, yes fair enough, if you believe it's in his best interests, but you can't sack him.

[Abacus]

34 minutes ago, gjohnson said:

Bad luck used in for a decade in a season?....Clearly haven't been around NUFC for long. We are the MASTERS of "bad luck". A chance for glory comes our way and thers always a monumental f**k up that comes our way. 

Sadly, or happily, I've been around NUFC for a long time. I've not seen any combination of shit luck like this before.

 

And I say this having still enjoyed an amazing European adventure, two decent cup runs and still  the chance of a crack at some sort of European football next season.

 

This season is one of what ifs, and as they say, it's the hope that kills you.

[et tu brute]

56 minutes ago, gjohnson said:

Unlikely situation, but maybe he's one of those that sees playing football as a job and little else. I doubt it, but if I was told I could take 6-9 months off on full pay I wouldn't be arguing. 

I've got no doubt he wanted to play especially with the Euros coming up. I'm not blaming him by the way, Im

saying he should have been told that he would not be selected. It was blatantly obvious it was not right and this has been discussed on here and through the media for months.

[Geordie Ahmed]

16 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

I've got no doubt he wanted to play especially with the Euros coming up. I'm not blaming him by the way, Im

saying he should have been told that he would not be selected. It was blatantly obvious it was not right and this has been discussed on here and through the media for months.

 

I presume if the medical advice was clear cut that surgery is required then he would have gotten it done

 

Much like now, he's obviously been told surgery is needed 

 

However, if he's had mixed advice then I can't blame him for going with the one that doesn't require surgery 

 

A lesson for the club is probably not to trust the medical professional that reckons rest was the solution because me as a layman knew that was asking got a trouble 

[et tu brute]

5 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

 

I presume if the medical advice was clear cut that surgery is required then he would have gotten it done

 

Much like now, he's obviously been told surgery is needed 

 

However, if he's had mixed advice then I can't blame him for going with the one that doesn't require surgery 

 

A lesson for the club is probably not to trust the medical professional that reckons rest was the solution because me as a layman knew that was asking got a trouble 

You can only go off what Howe stated today and he quoted the medical team said he needed surgery. I honestly don't understand why people are trying to say it was acceptable what has happened. It's obviously been a monumental fuck up and I've no doubt the club will be having their own internal investigation. 

[Cf]

10 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

You can only go off what Howe stated today and he quoted the medical team said he needed surgery. I honestly don't understand why people are trying to say it was acceptable what has happened. It's obviously been a monumental fuck up and I've no doubt the club will be having their own internal investigation. 

 

The medical team will have recommended surgery on balance from the advice they had all received. But it won't have been a clear cut you definitely need surgery. 

 

There's a lot more nuance to it than some people are making out and it's why I don't find Howe's comments helpful the way he's seemingly made out that Botman overruled the club and this is some sort of crisis of management. 

 

This sort of discussion about whether an injury requires surgery or not probably happens all the time. We obviously aren't privy to such conversations. It's just not that often that this is the outcome. 

[et tu brute]

13 minutes ago, Cf said:

 

The medical team will have recommended surgery on balance from the advice they had all received. But it won't have been a clear cut you definitely need surgery. 

 

There's a lot more nuance to it than some people are making out and it's why I don't find Howe's comments helpful the way he's seemingly made out that Botman overruled the club and this is some sort of crisis of management. 

 

This sort of discussion about whether an injury requires surgery or not probably happens all the time. We obviously aren't privy to such conversations. It's just not that often that this is the outcome. 

I'm privy to my eyes which saw obvious problems and I heard Howe today state the medical team said he needed surgery. If you want to think something else that's entirely up to you. I stick to my point that it's been a monumental fuck up which will probably see a player miss an entire season.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2024 by et tu brute

[Kanj]

I honestly give up here. 
 

multiple specialists had conflicting views. Club said get the op. He chose another option. He rested and rehabbed. He didn’t play until the club and doctors cleared him to play. This only after many months of rest rehab and scans done locally and with approved medical professionals. 
 

now the club could have still said nah we’re not playing you Sven, even after all these months. But they didn’t, did they? Because the medical team and club all looked at the facts and said he could play. 

[Sibierski]

On 20/03/2024 at 19:29, Sibierski said:

Christ, stop leaving it to the bloody players to decide if they’re fit or not  Like asking a player after they’ve been knocked out if they’re good to play, they will say yes.

 

[Andy]

 

10 minutes ago, Kanji said:

I honestly give up here. 
 

multiple specialists had conflicting views. Club said get the op. He chose another option. He rested and rehabbed. He didn’t play until the club and doctors cleared him to play. This only after many months of rest rehab and scans done locally and with approved medical professionals. 
 

now the club could have still said nah we’re not playing you Sven, even after all these months. But they didn’t, did they? Because the medical team and club all looked at the facts and said he could play. 

 

Good assesment. Definitely seems to me that the club did everything they realistically could have. These things aren't black and white, all they could do is mitigate the risk if the specialists couldn't come to a conclusive recommendation and the player himself didn't want to undergo surgery. 

 

From Botman's perspective, it also makes perfect sense that he'd want to continue playing if he felt capable, he's a professional and the Euros are coming up. 

 

It could have went either way, as I'm sure it does in many cases that we never hear about. 

[High Five o]

2 hours ago, Keegans Export said:

Replace "player" with "patient". From a medical perspective there is no difference. 

 

And you can't coerce/threaten the patient to do what you want either. Bench him, yes fair enough, if you believe it's in his best interests, but you can't sack him.

I don’t care from a medical perspective, all know a doctor cannot force you to do surgery. But from an employee perspective I believe a PL club have something in the contract that states that a player can not refuse treatment for an injury that is treatable….

 

[LFEE]

5 hours ago, joeyt said:

Wonder if the Euros would have played a part in Botman's thinking?

 

If he got the surgery in September he would have close to no chance of making the Euros

Totally. Was surely his thinking when he decided to nurse it. 

[et tu brute]

1 hour ago, Kanji said:

I honestly give up here. 
 

multiple specialists had conflicting views. Club said get the op. He chose another option. He rested and rehabbed. He didn’t play until the club and doctors cleared him to play. This only after many months of rest rehab and scans done locally and with approved medical professionals. 
 

now the club could have still said nah we’re not playing you Sven, even after all these months. But they didn’t, did they? Because the medical team and club all looked at the facts and said he could play. 

And by doing that he is now facing a season out, and the reason for that is that he wasn't told that he would not be selected. Instead he kept on playing when it was plainly obvious that there were issues. Who is ultimately to blame is subject to the club. 

[et tu brute]

12 minutes ago, LFEE said:

Totally. Was surely his thinking when he decided to nurse it. 

I think it's an absolute certainty that is the reason he wanted to continue to play.

[gjohnson]

4 hours ago, Abacus said:

Sadly, or happily, I've been around NUFC for a long time. I've not seen any combination of shit luck like this before.

 

And I say this having still enjoyed an amazing European adventure, two decent cup runs and still  the chance of a crack at some sort of European football next season.

 

This season is one of what ifs, and as they say, it's the hope that kills you.

Never seen anything with as bad luck as this? How about getting  taken over by the tightest billionaire in the world, suffering two relegations due to basic incompetence? We've had far worse seasons, and luck has been a factor this season, but shouldn't gloss over some of the obvious mistakes that have been made on and off the pitch. 

 

Given our so called style, injuries should be realistically expected so will freely admit we were unlucky with Barnes. Tonalis issues should have been picked up so I don't see that as bad luck...either an oversight or incompetence in due diligence. Bringing in no cover for Isak or Wilson and letting Wood go knowing their records is bordering on stupidity

[Abacus]

3 hours ago, gjohnson said:

Never seen anything with as bad luck as this? How about getting  taken over by the tightest billionaire in the world, suffering two relegations due to basic incompetence? We've had far worse seasons, and luck has been a factor this season, but shouldn't gloss over some of the obvious mistakes that have been made on and off the pitch. 

 

Given our so called style, injuries should be realistically expected so will freely admit we were unlucky with Barnes. Tonalis issues should have been picked up so I don't see that as bad luck...either an oversight or incompetence in due diligence. Bringing in no cover for Isak or Wilson and letting Wood go knowing their records is bordering on stupidity

Well, we're going to have to disagree then, in a scholarly manner. 

 

I was mainly just sticking to things on the pitch and ignoring the PSG robbery, but then you have the ridiculous cup draws, the Tonali situation and the freak injuries trying to cope with a squad built by Ashley after years of neglect.

 

If you're talking off the pitch, then the years we couldn't or wouldn't compete is comfortably trumped by realising that the cards are stacked in such a way to stop us, or anyone else from doing so. Maybe saying that's bad luck is describing it wrongly, but we certainly did it at the wrong time.

 

Thing is, we were finally playing like we all wanted and were ready to give it a go (well ahead of time) from where we should have been. Shit luck, as I say.

 

Edit; it's still been a hell of a ride and nowhere near as dispiriting as some of the Ashley years, so I'll definitely give you that.

 

 

Edited March 29, 2024 by Abacus
25 pints

[Away Toon]

10 hours ago, joeyt said:

Wonder if the Euros would have played a part in Botman's thinking?

 

If he got the surgery in September he would have close to no chance of making the Euros

Fit or not he’s way down the list to play for the Netherlands. Far too slow for a start.

[madras]

6 hours ago, et tu brute said:

I'm privy to my eyes which saw obvious problems and I heard Howe today state the medical team said he needed surgery. If you want to think something else that's entirely up to you. I stick to my point that it's been a monumental fuck up which will probably see a player miss an entire season.

 

 

 

That's strange because I read Howe saying their was conflicting advice, the club advised him to get surgery but he decided to play on and Howe had seen players do that with that sort of injury before.

 

 

 

But that means we can't blame anyone and we have to have blame !

[et tu brute]

Just now, madras said:

That's strange because I read Howe saying their was conflicting advice, the club advised him to get surgery but he decided to play on and Howe had seen players do that with that sort of injury before.

 

 

 

But that means we can't blame anyone and we have to have blame !

Well they were both wrong then. Howe said the club advised getting surgery, so obviously they considered all the 'conflicting advice'. You're damn right someone(s) is to blame also, but I very much doubt we will ever find out. At the end of the day our best central defender is out for probably a season, because of playing games when he was so clearly not fit and also because he didn't have surgery when advised to do so. I've got no doubt this was due to the player wanting to give his options open for the summer euros. 

[madras]

Just now, et tu brute said:

Well they were both wrong then. Howe said the club advised getting surgery, so obviously they considered all the 'conflicting advice'. You're damn right someone(s) is to blame also, but I very much doubt we will ever find out. At the end of the day our best central defender is out for probably a season, because of playing games when he was so clearly not fit and also because he didn't have surgery when advised to do so. I've got no doubt this was due to the player wanting to give his options open for the summer euros. 

Alternatively Botman thought he could play on after rest, there was some advice to say he could and evidence of others doing it. Why shouldn't he ?

 

Players play with injuries all the time, it's always a risk but teams would rarely fill a bench if putting out 100% fit players.

[et tu brute]

Just now, madras said:

Alternatively Botman thought he could play on after rest, there was some advice to say he could and evidence of others doing it. Why shouldn't he ?

 

Players play with injuries all the time, it's always a risk but teams would rarely fill a bench if putting out 100% fit players.

 

Because it was clearly obvious he was not fit in the games he played and we're not talking about a minor injury here. We're talking about an ACL tear. You also keep saying some advice about being able to continue, but obviously this was all taken into consideration and the recommendation was for surgery. You believe what you want to though.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Away Toon said:

Fit or not he’s way down the list to play for the Netherlands. Far too slow for a start.

 

He was called up to their squad towards the end of last season, so would make perfect sense from his point of view to not want surgery to stay in and around the squad with the Euros coming up.

[madras]

18 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

 

Because it was clearly obvious he was not fit in the games he played and we're not talking about a minor injury here. We're talking about an ACL tear. You also keep saying some advice about being able to continue, but obviously this was all taken into consideration and the recommendation was for surgery. You believe what you want to though.

It wasn't clear he wasn't fit, it was clear he wasn't as good as he had been (its bye the bye but Bruno hasnt been as good as he was last season without carrying an injury), that's as likely to be psychological as physical, but he was still our best option and was able to play on advice given.

[et tu brute]

2 minutes ago, madras said:

It wasn't clear he wasn't fit, it was clear he wasn't as good as he had been (its bye the bye but Bruno hasnt been as good as he was last season without carrying an injury), that's as likely to be psychological as physical, but he was still our best option and was able to play on advice given.

 

As I said you believe what you want to believe. Bruno hasn't been as good this seaon as for large parts he has been playing with Longstaff and Miley (he has still been very good mind). I totally disagree with you, but you're entitled to your opinion.