Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[Dokko]

  On 02/03/2024 at 12:20, DahnSahf said:

Merse just saying on GSS that the rules have to change - their purpose is to keep the top three at the top and not allow anyone to catch them.

 

Edit. I mean it's the 'top six', but you have to remember that Merse can't count. ?

 

 

 

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He's probably right though. The top 3 benefit the most, and at least he's pinpointing Arsenal.

[Whitley mag]

  On 02/03/2024 at 12:51, FloydianMag said:

Who knows…..now I wonder if this is genuine?

 

https://x.com/mccull41/status/1763502109054415351?s=46&t=RaLdCRuzyWBbm603Y3eUgg

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I mean even if it’s not real, we all know that’s their view and is being pushed at every opportunity by the red tops and wannabe spuds as a means of protectionism.

[The Prophet]

 

[gbandit]

That’s a disastrous amount of money to be making a loss on. Looks like the talk of them needing to sell players is likely to be true come the summer 

[Matt1892]

Their wage bill also went up from £137 million to £194 million.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

Coutinho will fall off the wage bill for this year but you'd imagine Diaby Tielemans and Torres are on a decent wedge

 

Amortisation will also increase by around £20m from the summer activity and they won't see a massive drop off from prior year signings until 2024/2025 (€19m spent in 18/19, over €100m spent every year since then).

 

Before you take off any allowable expenses they had a profit of £336,000 last year and a loss of £37,000,000 the year before. There is some amazing dark arts going on in their FFP calcs to avoid a breach after these accounts, I'd love to get my teeth into them and if they don't breach then we need to have a good hard look at how they've done it.

 

And if Everton can get done 2 years in a row they'd have to come up with a profit of £15m this year to not get done again

[timeEd32]

That's an eye popping increase to their wage bill. Seems likely to cross £200m in the 2023/24 accounts.

 

Higher wages and amortisation costs than NUFC on £33m less revenue.

 

 

[Keegans Export]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:37, Colos Short and Curlies said:

Coutinho will fall off the wage bill for this year but you'd imagine Diaby Tielemans and Torres are on a decent wedge

 

Amortisation will also increase by around £20m from the summer activity and they won't see a massive drop off from prior year signings until 2024/2025 (€19m spent in 18/19, over €100m spent every year since then).

 

Before you take off any allowable expenses they had a profit of £336,000 last year and a loss of £37,000,000 the year before. There is some amazing dark arts going on in their FFP calcs to avoid a breach after these accounts, I'd love to get my teeth into them and if they don't breach then we need to have a good hard look at how they've done it.

 

And if Everton can get done 2 years in a row they'd have to come up with a profit of £15m this year to not get done again

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So even before all the clever accounting they've got £70m(ish) to play with? 

[timeEd32]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:37, Colos Short and Curlies said:

Coutinho will fall off the wage bill for this year but you'd imagine Diaby Tielemans and Torres are on a decent wedge

 

Amortisation will also increase by around £20m from the summer activity and they won't see a massive drop off from prior year signings until 2024/2025 (€19m spent in 18/19, over €100m spent every year since then).

 

Before you take off any allowable expenses they had a profit of £336,000 last year and a loss of £37,000,000 the year before. There is some amazing dark arts going on in their FFP calcs to avoid a breach after these accounts, I'd love to get my teeth into them and if they don't breach then we need to have a good hard look at how they've done it.

 

And if Everton can get done 2 years in a row they'd have to come up with a profit of £15m this year to not get done again

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Sounds like the £56m in Covid losses is helping them bring that number down and then I guess infrastructure, women's football, etc.? Going to be interesting to see how they balance the the three year period ending in June without those Covid losses included anymore.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:42, Keegans Export said:

So even before all the clever accounting they've got £70m(ish) to play with? 

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Had £70m to play with for 2022/2023, they've bust that by £49m though. It's Everton levels of creative allocation of costs to bring that back in line.

 

for 2023/2024 they start with a loss of £119m and a profit of £336k, so lets be kind and round it right down to £118m as a starting point, hence needing to come up with a £15m profit this year.

 

Even if they did then its still a breakeven position needed for 2024/2025.

 

I reckon they'll sell Watkins and someone like Ramsey, but time is against them

 

[Tsunami]

Do they not have some of the Grealish money to offset those losses?

[Colos Short and Curlies]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:45, timeEd32 said:

 

Sounds like the £56m in Covid losses is helping them bring that number down and then I guess infrastructure, women's football, etc.? Going to be interesting to see how they balance the the three year period ending in June without those Covid losses included anymore.

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£20m of that rolls off in this 3 year period.

 

And how you can claim for loss of player value (£4m), write down of player values (£1.4m) and have a loss for not taking up the furlough scheme (£1.6m) is bonkers.

 

A full FFP statement should be made public in the accounts

[Keegans Export]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:46, Colos Short and Curlies said:

 

Had £70m to play with for 2022/2023, they've bust that by £49m though. It's Everton levels of creative allocation of costs to bring that back in line.

 

for 2023/2024 they start with a loss of £119m and a profit of £336k, so lets be kind and round it right down to £118m as a starting point, hence needing to come up with a £15m profit this year.

 

Even if they did then its still a breakeven position needed for 2024/2025.

 

I reckon they'll sell Watkins and someone like Ramsey, but time is against them

 

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Are you not just looking at the actual P&L rather than what's relevant just to the PSR though? Haven't we posted two £70m losses in the last two seasons?

[Colos Short and Curlies]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:51, Tsunami said:

Do they not have some of the Grealish money to offset those losses?

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Its fully included in the £336k profit from 2021/2022

[Colos Short and Curlies]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:53, Keegans Export said:

Are you not just looking at the actual P&L rather than what's relevant just to the PSR though? Haven't we posted two £70m losses in the last two seasons?

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Hence my first line on the Everton levels of accounting creativity needed to post a loss that slips inside the allowable amount for FFP

[timeEd32]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:52, Colos Short and Curlies said:

 

£20m of that rolls off in this 3 year period.

 

And how you can claim for loss of player value (£4m), write down of player values (£1.4m) and have a loss for not taking up the furlough scheme (£1.6m) is bonkers.

 

A full FFP statement should be made public in the accounts

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Do you have a link to the actual accounts? I haven't seen them and don't see them on their site.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:56, timeEd32 said:

 

Do you have a link to the actual accounts? I haven't seen them and don't see them on their site.

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https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/05891280/filing-history

 

This year's aren't up, but they will be here in the next couple of days

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2024 by Colos Short and Curlies

[midds]

In all fairness their financial position is just as ridiculous as ours. They have owners who want to invest but are being hamstrung by this FFP shite, it's shit for the pair of us. They should also be allowed to invest as much as their owners are prepared to put in to help them move forward and gatecrash the top 6 too, they have just as much right to have a go as we do, good on them tbh

[Keegans Export]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:55, Colos Short and Curlies said:

 

Hence my first line on the Everton levels of accounting creativity needed to post a loss that slips inside the allowable amount for FFP

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Right, but by the looks of things we're doing exactly the same if we've lost £150m in two years worth of full accounts 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

  On 04/03/2024 at 22:00, Keegans Export said:

Right, but by the looks of things we're doing exactly the same if we've lost £150m in two years worth of full accounts 

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More or less, The only difference is that our losses were fairly consistent and we are building additional revenue streams bit by bit whereas Villa's has come out of nowhere really.

 

Would need to see if there are any exceptional costs in there because the fundamentals in player wages and amortisation are going to increase by as much, if not more than their European revenue.

 

As Midds says, its ridiculous for both of us

[McDog]

  On 04/03/2024 at 22:05, Colos Short and Curlies said:

 

More or less, The only difference is that our losses were fairly consistent and we are building additional revenue streams bit by bit whereas Villa's has come out of nowhere really.

 

Would need to see if there are any exceptional costs in there because the fundamentals in player wages and amortisation are going to increase by as much, if not more than their European revenue.

 

As Midds says, its ridiculous for both of us

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I assume clubs don’t publish their revenue streams but have to provide them to the Premier League through their books. Does the league periodically publish those numbers or are some of the lists that are bandied about educated guesses?

[Heron]

This FFP stuff is just getting increasingly annoying like, it's poorly defined, terribly governed, inconsistent garbage.

 

They just make it up as they go along, farcical.

[brummie]

  On 04/03/2024 at 21:45, timeEd32 said:

 

Sounds like the £56m in Covid losses is helping them bring that number down and then I guess infrastructure, women's football, etc.? Going to be interesting to see how they balance the the three year period ending in June without those Covid losses included anymore.

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Invested a ton building a new inner city academy, covid losses plus of the three seasons, one of which we didn’t lose anything at all, and the other 37

or so. 
 

We will be well within the PSR limits but what these sort of manoeuvres show is how much of a ridiculous balancing act all this shit is. 
 

It will be hard to strengthen in the summer without also selling though. But then again we spent 8m on a young right back and 10m on Rodgers in January so it can’t be that tight. 

The other thing with all this is it just makes me more convinced we’ll be getting a new ground. 

[brummie]

  On 04/03/2024 at 22:00, Keegans Export said:

Right, but by the looks of things we're doing exactly the same if we've lost £150m in two years worth of full accounts 

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you (I mean the wider sense of you here, ie competing clubs) have absolutely no choice but to sail as close to the wind as they possibly can with FFP. 

 

It is absolutely fucking ridiculous and in some ways encourages more recklessness as the rules are so draconian all of a sudden (now it is convenient to pull up the ladder). 
 

The reason Everton got a points deduction isn’t spending as such, as much as it was about pushing the interpretation of the rules too far. 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

  On 04/03/2024 at 22:40, brummie said:

Invested a ton building a new inner city academy, covid losses plus of the three seasons, one of which we didn’t lose anything at all, and the other 37

or so. 
 

We will be well within the PSR limits but what these sort of manoeuvres show is how much of a ridiculous balancing act all this shit is. 
 

It will be hard to strengthen in the summer without also selling though. But then again we spent 8m on a young right back and 10m on Rodgers in January so it can’t be that tight. 

The other thing with all this is it just makes me more convinced we’ll be getting a new ground. 

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i haven’t gone through your accounts to see, but wouldn’t most of the costs in setting up an academy by capital costs and therefore not included in the losses?

 

yes you’d have the payroll costs for the academy staff but nothing for the buildings and facilities. Fees for buying young players would also be written off for FFP, can’t think of much else