Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability

[r0cafella]

Just now, nufcnick said:

Only applies when property is sold under value to avoid taxes, we could sell our training ground to the Ruben’s for a £1b 

No we couldn’t. It stills falls within the scope of FMV. 

[Ben]

UEFA/FIFA will be sorted with a few bribes though

[Keegans Export]

Just now, r0cafella said:

I’m not sure but it’s important to understand the punishments given by Uefa are much less draconian than what the EPL gives out. As I keep mentioning psg lost 600m euro over the last 3 financial years and that’s valuing the dodgy sponserships at full value, and what’s the punishment for these unprecedented losses? Supervisory measures

Didn't they kick Juventus out of the Conference League this year?

[r0cafella]

Just now, Keegans Export said:

Didn't they kick Juventus out of the Conference League this year?

Probably but that probably involved being in breach forever. The point being made is if you hire good lawyers and sell the story as well as kick the can for years your good. 

[Mikky]

1 minute ago, Keegans Export said:

Didn't they kick Juventus out of the Conference League this year?

Think Juve volunteered to be kicked out - easy way out 

[r0cafella]

To be very frank, as we’ve seen with Chelsea and city the rules are full of loophole; the fact we haven’t taken advantage of any should demonstrate we might want to temper our expectations. 

[Peppe]

Still think we should just have a totally-not-related-to-our-owners-in any-way Saudi company order 100 million Nufc-shirts from us. They, in turn, could then just donate them to people in the world who don't have clothes. Win-win

[Toonjam88]

16 minutes ago, Peppe said:

Still think we should just have a totally-not-related-to-our-owners-in any-way Saudi company order 100 million Nufc-shirts from us. They, in turn, could then just donate them to people in the world who don't have clothes. Win-win

They are opening a JD sport in Saudi 

[Jack27]

4 minutes ago, Toonjam88 said:

They are opening a JD sport in Saudi 

they should go one step further and open an official club shop in Saudi (and other high value markets)

[ikri]

We should immediately buy a dozen sites around Newcastle so we can plan for upgrading the training ground and then sell them on after we decide that we don't need so many.

Buy Newcastle racecourse too whilst we investigate the option for building a new stadium, then immediately sell it when people complain about moving the ground.

Or just buy all those places anyway, develop them for offices and hotels and use the income to boost the FFP limits.

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, r0cafella said:

I’m not sure but it’s important to understand the punishments given by Uefa are much less draconian than what the EPL gives out. As I keep mentioning psg lost 600m euro over the last 3 financial years and that’s valuing the dodgy sponserships at full value, and what’s the punishment for these unprecedented losses? Supervisory measures

But AC Milan were banned from Europe

[r0cafella]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

But AC Milan were banned from Europe

I don’t know the details of the case but ultimately if you get banned from the champions league whilst PSG didn’t your failing somewhere along the line.

[Monkey Alan]

Arsenal fans have been saying for months "Newcastle need to sell".  I couldn't find anything to verify this but now it seems somebody down in London knew something we didn't. It makes one wonder.

[The College Dropout]

22 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

I don’t know the details of the case but ultimately if you get banned from the champions league whilst PSG didn’t your failing somewhere along the line.

 

That was the Europa though and they took a voluntary ban. Probably wanted to focus on the league.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48801681

 

Milan did the same thing PSG have always done so I don't know why they would get banned bar not really wanting to play in Europa.

[r0cafella]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

 

That was the Europa though and they took a voluntary ban. Probably wanted to focus on the league.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48801681

 

Milan did the same thing PSG have always done so I don't know why they would get banned bar not really wanting to play in Europa.

I don’t know all the details but I can imagine the situation can be gamed in such a way whereby you can actually breach and end up benefiting. 

[The Prophet]

23 minutes ago, Monkey Alan said:

Arsenal fans have been saying for months "Newcastle need to sell".  I couldn't find anything to verify this but now it seems somebody down in London knew something we didn't. It makes one wonder.

 

It's been in the media for months, but it's still only guesswork at this point. Reporting varies from we're either just over or very close to the limit, so their giddy claims we need to see Isak aren't very likely to be accurate.

[Checko]

I swear, if Dummett's salary this year put us over the limit I will not be held responsible for my actions

 

 

Edited June 7 by Checko

[The College Dropout]

It all stems from the CEOs interview and the following rumours of sales that never materialised.

 

I don't think we need to sell to be compliant. But we might need to sell to invest.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

The hype and sales of the shirt today are a shot in the arm for RTP/APT discussions going forward. How anyone can argue down the commercial impact of being associated with us is one for Masters to work out

[mattypnufc]

Just fuck the whole thing off.  

[Terraloon]

2 hours ago, r0cafella said:

I’m not sure but it’s important to understand the punishments given by Uefa are much less draconian than what the EPL gives out. As I keep mentioning psg lost 600m euro over the last 3 financial years and that’s valuing the dodgy sponserships at full value, and what’s the punishment for these unprecedented losses? Supervisory measures

Sad that I am I spent a couple of hours a week or so  reading the UEFA regulations and the PLs alongside.

 

The UEFA ones first have different strands such as squad costs, no outstanding payables debt and of course all that alongside allowable losses.

 You are 100% correct the UEFA punishments are far less draconian

 

In terms of exceeding squad costs there is a table of monetary fines that basically withhold a % of the revenue earned from UEFA . The table does vary based on how many occasions a club exceeds and by what % but I would think that if you worked on say 15% -20% in year one that would be about right 

 

The squad wages are  for 1) Every male player registered with the club 2) Head Coaches wages 3) Amortisation and Impairment

 for those players 4) Agents fees etc ( theses are  included in the amortisation charge. You then add back the wages spent on academy players 

 

Many make the mistake of looking at accounts and just taking the wage numbers reflected in those accounts as being the number they will use. I have seen estimates of what % is probably accurate . It’s quite simply impossible without access to the internal numbers to know but it could be as high as 90% for some clubs ( Everton for instance have outsourced commercial and catering and WHU pay stadium costs including security are included in their rent of the London Stadium) I would imagine that some clubs may well be circa 70% or even lower for clubs that have massive numbers employed in commercial, admin etc.

 

In terms of football revenue UEFAs regulation around “ profit “ from the disposal of tangible assets is not as clear cut as it could be and unless you replace assets such as training grounds and  stadiums they aren’t allowed at all. Irrespective if say for instance the proceeds from the sell of those hotels are disallowed it’s highly likely that a sanction will follow by way of a sanctions agreement and yes that could be expulsion but more likely to be an additional monetary policy penalty and squad size restrictions.

 

Those hotels were independently valued ( by two companies) and the proceeds didn’t exceed the depreciated value in the relevant accounts. 
 

Anyone that has visited Stamford Bridge will know that there is significant property owned by the club that I suspect will now be sold to Blue Co. From the block of flats which is worth tens of millions . 

 

I would add in those UEFA regulations there is significant concession when clubs have been through issues such as the knock on of things such as the sanction’s imposed on  RA. In effect that could mean for the years 21/22  &  22/23 the numbers are excluded simply because the 3 year cycle would be a factor in the assessment.

What all this has gone to prove is that PSR/ FFP or whatever system the football bodies want to put in place the loop holes as some refer them as being will always be exploited by the very clever people that this very rich people employ to crunch the numbers 

 

 

 

 

 

[KetsbaiaIsBald]

2 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

Those hotels were independently valued ( by two companies) and the proceeds didn’t exceed the depreciated value in the relevant accounts. 

 

Did the value include the fact they theft the income from the hotels with the original trading entity?  It seems weird to me to say my company owns a hotel worth 100 million and it generates income of 10 million a year.  If I sold this property to someone but kept the rights to the 10 million income per year surely I could not sell it for 100 million?

[r0cafella]

2 minutes ago, KetsbaiaIsBald said:

 

Did the value include the fact they theft the income from the hotels with the original trading entity?  It seems weird to me to say my company owns a hotel worth 100 million and it generates income of 10 million a year.  If I sold this property to someone but kept the rights to the 10 million income per year surely I could not sell it for 100 million?

Loophole in the rules sadly, it’s very specific too. I can only tip my hat at the genius of it personally love a double dip.

[madras]

2 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Loophole in the rules sadly, it’s very specific too. I can only tip my hat at the genius of it personally love a double dip.

 But surely that negates the FMV bit as someone wouldn't buy it if they didn't get the profits from its use ?

[Kimbo]

I feel like I’m quite close to fucking the sport off. I’m hesitant to even call it a sport when we have the rules rigged in favour of a small group of clubs. I don’t even want us to spend more than anyone else, and I don’t care about the premier league being the biggest league in the world, but if there’s no route for clubs to compete for trophies, then what’s the point? We’re just supposed to exist as feeder clubs? Like the footballing equivalent of faceless goons that get shot in the head by John Wick?
 

Either bring down the spending of the top clubs so that it’s in line with the rest of the league, or allow the rest of the league to compete financially with the top clubs if they have investors capable of it. It can be done in such a way that doesn’t bankrupt clubs.