Financial Fair Play / Profit & Sustainability: Forest unsuccessful in appeal against four-point deduction

[wyn davies]

1 hour ago, Pixelphish said:

Given our ownship now I think every fanbase going would feel the same towards NUFC.

Unfortunately for those fanbases we appear to be squeaky clean and I'm ignoring the usual Saudi nonsense as the majority of people in the world depend on them for oil, clothing in the fact it's generally made from oil, plastic , cars etc etc

[Groundhog63]

11 minutes ago, wyn davies said:

Unfortunately for those fanbases we appear to be squeaky clean and I'm ignoring the usual Saudi nonsense as the majority of people in the world depend on them for oil, clothing in the fact it's generally made from oil, plastic , cars etc etc

Just. Stop. Oil

[OCK]

27 minutes ago, Miggys First Goal said:

Apparently the same disciplinary panel that docked them 10 points will hear the compensation claim from Leicester, Leeds and Burnley.

[RodneyCisse]

On 21/11/2023 at 19:40, Skeletor said:

Might be because Everton are one of my most disliked teams but I've got immense blood lust about this and enjoying it so much.

It’s the scouse Mackem nature to their fans and that they think they’re some staple of English football and are loved by the media.

[Skeletor]

1 hour ago, Miggys First Goal said:

Apparently the same disciplinary panel that docked them 10 points will hear the compensation claim from Leicester, Leeds and Burnley.

 

 

[LFEE]

Everton should think themselves very lucky personally. If they were given 6 points as they are arguing more realistic they would’ve been relegated both of the last two seasons when it should of been given.

[TRon]

21 hours ago, RodneyCisse said:

It’s the scouse Mackem nature to their fans and that they think they’re some staple of English football and are loved by the media.

 

Scouse mackem pretty much sums them up tbh. It's Liverpool who are the media darlings, Everton are just there to make up the numbers. They aren't loved by anyone other than their counterparts on wearside.

[The Prophet]

I understand rivalry and schadenfreude are part of football, but putting tribalism aside, I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good thing.

 

Rewind two to three years, our takeover was stalled. It wasn't accepted, it wasn't rejected, it was left in limbo without a single official line from the PL as to why. 

 

The takeover then goes through and immediately we have a temporary ban on sponsorship, before new murky associated party laws are passed.  since tried and failed to prevent associated party loans a month before the transfer market.

 

Everton are effectively going through a relatable scenario. They've breached FFP and admitted as much. The PL have dismissed all of their mitigation out of hand without a convincing explanation as to why. They've then been penalised  with a sanction based on nothing but the whim of Richard Masters. There's no written guidance or rules on the matter.

 

The Premier League have more or less said they wanted to draw a line in the sand and Everton would be that. Everything that follows are opaque, unconvincing arguments made up on the hoof. From a regulator point of view it's an absolute shambles. It's just another example of the Premier League behaving how it wants without any constitution or remit.

[Tiresias]

1 minute ago, The Prophet said:

I understand rivalry and schadenfreude are part of football, but putting tribalism aside, I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good thing.

 

Rewind two to three years, our takeover was stalled. It wasn't accepted, it wasn't rejected, it was left in limbo without a single official line from the PL as to why. 

 

The takeover then goes through and immediately we have a temporary ban on sponsorship, before new murky associated party laws are passed.  since tried and failed to prevent associated party loans a month before the transfer market.

 

Everton are effectively going through a relatable scenario. They've breached FFP and admitted as much. The PL have dismissed all of their mitigation out of hand without a convincing explanation as to why. They've then been penalised  with a sanction based on nothing but the whim of Richard Masters. There's no written guidance or rules on the matter.

 

The Premier League have more or less said they wanted to draw a line in the sand and Everton would be that. Everything that follows are opaque, unconvincing arguments made up on the hoof. From a regulator point of view it's an absolute shambles. It's just another example of the Premier League behaving how it wants without any constitution or remit.

 

Half their mitigation is Covid as if they were the only club that went through that. Some is legitimate and maybe that's why it's 10 points not the recommended 12. The thing is if any club ever breaches the losses rules something has gone wrong and there will always be mitigating circumstances. They spent way more than they made, they got punished. What is opaque about that? You start letting clubs off because waaah waaah this went wrong and that (they already made accomodations to all clubs due to Covid) then the rules become meaningless. 

[The Prophet]

4 minutes ago, Tiresias said:

 

Half their mitigation is Covid as if they were the only club that went through that. Some is legitimate and maybe that's why it's 10 points not the recommended 12. The thing is if any club ever breaches the losses rules something has gone wrong and there will always be mitigating circumstances. They spent way more than they made, they got punished. What is opaque about that? You start letting clubs off because waaah waaah this went wrong and that (they already made accomodations to all clubs due to Covid) then the rules become meaningless. 

 

Parts of Everton's mitigation are nonsense, other parts are more reasonable and were dismissed without a convincing explanation.

 

They're guilty of breaching FFP and have admitted it. The problem is that the Premier League have no sanctions guidance. How have the PL come to a sanction of ten points? Have any aggravation factors contributed and how many points do they account for?  Could any of Everton's mitigation resulted in less points being deducted and how many?  The aim was to set a precedent, but procedurally it's all over the show.

[Tiresias]

Yeah punishment would be clear but I think points deductions are more than appropriate punishment. They have gained a sporting advantage over clubs that kept to the rules and need a sporting punishment. The problem with saying if you go this much over the rules you get this many points is that then it becomes something you can price in. Oh we aren't going to compete for the title this year and european football would be a burden let's spend this much and accept the 10 point punishment. That would be absolutely clear nonsense. 

[Groundhog63]

Just started watching Britain's Biggest Football Scandal 

 

By rights City should be in the Conference next season. 

[Geordie Ahmed]

12 hours ago, Tiresias said:

 

Half their mitigation is Covid as if they were the only club that went through that. Some is legitimate and maybe that's why it's 10 points not the recommended 12. The thing is if any club ever breaches the losses rules something has gone wrong and there will always be mitigating circumstances. They spent way more than they made, they got punished. What is opaque about that? You start letting clubs off because waaah waaah this went wrong and that (they already made accomodations to all clubs due to Covid) then the rules become meaningless. 

Plus to add to it they have been in communication with the Premier League throughout, they were repeatedly told they needed to get their finances in order but they continued spending and ultimately being reckless has come back to bite them

 

It seems that some people are also saying the loss is only £19m, it's actually way more than that but the mitigating factors (such as Covid) reduced it but they were still over the limit

 

Part of their mitigation is that Spurs knew they were in financial trouble so drove a hard bargain and got Richarlison for £20m less than his value of "£80m", which is utterly ludicrous

 

I don't care for FFP/PSR but if the rules are in place then they need to be followed and Everton failed to do so despite repeated warnings

 

The Everton ownership/management only have themselves to blame but I do have sympathy for the fans and also can understand the fans feel hard done by as they are the first club to be done for breaching these rules but someone has to be the first

[Stifler]

13 hours ago, The Prophet said:

I understand rivalry and schadenfreude are part of football, but putting tribalism aside, I don't understand how anyone could think this is a good thing.

 

Rewind two to three years, our takeover was stalled. It wasn't accepted, it wasn't rejected, it was left in limbo without a single official line from the PL as to why. 

 

The takeover then goes through and immediately we have a temporary ban on sponsorship, before new murky associated party laws are passed.  since tried and failed to prevent associated party loans a month before the transfer market.

 

Everton are effectively going through a relatable scenario. They've breached FFP and admitted as much. The PL have dismissed all of their mitigation out of hand without a convincing explanation as to why. They've then been penalised  with a sanction based on nothing but the whim of Richard Masters. There's no written guidance or rules on the matter.

 

The Premier League have more or less said they wanted to draw a line in the sand and Everton would be that. Everything that follows are opaque, unconvincing arguments made up on the hoof. From a regulator point of view it's an absolute shambles. It's just another example of the Premier League behaving how it wants without any constitution or remit.

They haven’t though.

Everton’s losses were nearly £400m, meaning they at minimum spent £700m over a 3 year period.

They were allowed deductions due to some of it being related to the new stadium. Their Covid losses were over double what the 2nd highest club to report covid losses (Arsenal) was at.

They point to 1 player who they let go and valued him at £10m. This is a player who is allegedly under investigation for serious crimes. Look at the Greenwood situation and realise this guy had no value, despite them saying they released him for his own mental health for nothing.

They have also been investigated and found guilty of trying to conceal their losses by the Premier League.

In an era where every club, and fan base is up in arms with FFP and not wanting clubs to be able to spend casts sums of money, how much leeway are the Premier League supposed to give Everton?

[The Prophet]

34 minutes ago, Stifler said:

They haven’t though.

Everton’s losses were nearly £400m, meaning they at minimum spent £700m over a 3 year period.

They were allowed deductions due to some of it being related to the new stadium. Their Covid losses were over double what the 2nd highest club to report covid losses (Arsenal) was at.

They point to 1 player who they let go and valued him at £10m. This is a player who is allegedly under investigation for serious crimes. Look at the Greenwood situation and realise this guy had no value, despite them saying they released him for his own mental health for nothing.

They have also been investigated and found guilty of trying to conceal their losses by the Premier League.

In an era where every club, and fan base is up in arms with FFP and not wanting clubs to be able to spend casts sums of money, how much leeway are the Premier League supposed to give Everton?

 

I'm not particularly debating their guilt as such, they've admitted a certain amount of wrongdoing.

 

It's more the lack of rules and procedures in place that allows the Premier League to make precedents up on the fly, however and whenever it pleases.

[Slim]

 

[The Prophet]

I know there's a lot of hate for Everton on this forum, but I guess my overall position is...

 

FFP is a flawed system that prevents clubs challenging at the top end of the league using their own money.

 

Despite how much I disagree with FFP, they form the law as it stands and Everton have broken that law.

 

The Premier League has no rules or procedures in place for this kind of rule breach. They wanted to make an example of Everton and have more or less pulled a ten point deduction out of the air.

 

Some of the Premier League's case is quite unreasonable. For example, speculating how much Everton might be awarded for taking a player to court for breach of contract, when the club were allegedly helping that player through mental health problems. Granted, this is ultimately beside the main point of Everton providing misleading information regarding stadium costs and interest.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2023 by The Prophet

[Fezzle]

Saw something this morning that Everton werent happy Man Utd and Wolves werent looked at when they broke UEFA FFP, cant even remember that being a thing. Obviously Wolves had a firesale to solve issues this summer but still. There does need to be a more consistent rulebook/punishment mind, then again that wouldnt suit Man City and Chelsea when the time comes....

[Geordie Ahmed]

1 hour ago, The Prophet said:

 

I'm not particularly debating their guilt as such, they've admitted a certain amount of wrongdoing.

 

It's more the lack of rules and procedures in place that allows the Premier League to make precedents up on the fly, however and whenever it pleases.

Tbf the Premier League (the independent panel) are in a very difficult position when it comes to punishments, they are probably going to get criticised whatever the outcome

 

If it was 3 points the clubs around them kick off, if it's 9 like it is then those that want to see City/Chelsea punished feel it's harsh

 

This isn't a situation where you can easily assign an outcome, saying for example for every £5m loss over the limit = 2 points, that just wouldn't work or be viable

 

Listening to Neville on the overlap, the one thing he said I really agree with is life reporting, clubs should be able to at the end of the season know where they are at and what they can spend coming up

[Stifler]

2 hours ago, The Prophet said:

 

I'm not particularly debating their guilt as such, they've admitted a certain amount of wrongdoing.

 

It's more the lack of rules and procedures in place that allows the Premier League to make precedents up on the fly, however and whenever it pleases.

But clubs, and fans have been calling for stronger punishments for FFP.

I agree that FFP just creates a glass ceiling, and I agree that Everton are the first to be made an example of, but it has to start somewhere.

[Groundhog63]

2 hours ago, The Prophet said:

Some of the Premier League's case is quite unreasonable. For example, speculating how much Everton might be awarded for taking a player to court for breach of contract, when the club were allegedly helping that player through mental health problems. 

 

It wasn't the PL that speculated on "X's" 😉 value and the amount they could've reclaimed. It was Everton

 

55 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

Listenng to Neville on the overlap, the one thing he said I really agree with is life reporting, clubs should be able to at the end of the season know where they are at and what they can spend coming up

 

Everton WERE in dialogue with the PL over the whole time frame and fully conversant with the demands/expectations required of them. They chose to ignore. 

[macphisto]

1 hour ago, Geordie Ahmed said:

Listening to Neville on the overlap, the one thing he said I really agree with is life reporting, clubs should be able to at the end of the season know where they are at and what they can spend coming up

Did I hear right that he also said owners could put in as much as they want at the beginning of the season so clubs knew what they had to spend? 

[Geordie Ahmed]

11 minutes ago, Groundhog63 said:

 

It wasn't the PL that speculated on "X's" 😉 value and the amount they could've reclaimed. It was Everton

 

 

Everton WERE in dialogue with the PL over the whole time frame and fully conversant with the demands/expectations required of them. They chose to ignore. 

I am aware of Everton, they knew they were going to be running close so were in dialogue, I am saying all clubs should be in a constant dialogue with live accounting reporting, so it doesn't require self reporting and there are no shocks 

[Geordie Ahmed]

9 minutes ago, macphisto said:

Did I hear right that he also said owners could put in as much as they want at the beginning of the season so clubs knew what they had to spend? 

He said if based on the previous seasons revenue there is a shortfall of cash owners have to put in the money there and then to show they can afford to sign players otherwise they will be stopped

 

Now I don't know if that means there is no limit as to what they can spend or whether they have a limit but they still need to put the funds in at the start of the season 

 

I suppose his main point was, that the funding needs to be there to buy the players, I presume that is instead of relying on credit etc 

[RodneyCisse]

2 hours ago, Slim said:

 

Jesus what a terrible take, I wonder how he felt when he woke up?