The College Dropout Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 4 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said: How many international sides historically have been full of world class players? They usually aren’t. France 98-00 and Spain 08-12 are the only sides I can think of in my lifetime where this could be said. Every other international side which won WCs or continental competitions had weaknesses. England has a significant proportion of top players, and relative to the rest of the teams in the tournament potentially has more than anyone else, which is not something which we could say historically. Southgate is pissing away the country’s best ever opportunity to win international competitions. Euro 2020 will always be the nadir for this - and that Serbia game was remarkably similar. Take an early lead then retreat into a shell, when the talent was there to go and get a killer second goal if you only had the bollocks to go and get it. We don’t have more world class players or quality in depth than France or Portugal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Who are Portugal’s world class players in your opinion? Genuine question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Ronaldo said: Who are Portugal’s world class players in your opinion? Genuine question. Dont watch enough to say world class but quality players or at least massive hype: Rafa Leao Cristiano Joao Felix Bruno Fernandes Joao Neves Ruben Dias Bernardo Silva Palhinha G. Ramos Nunes from City Cancelo Pedro Neto Diogo Jota Pepe has been a world class player and was excellent the last time I saw him in the CL. The Ruben Neves would likely get a start for England. It’s a talented squad. A lot of attacking options. You can pick a much better balanced front 6 than England imo. Palhinha J. Neves / R. Neves Bernardo Fernandes Leao Jota/Ramos Nice blend of passers. Runners. Ball retainers. Creatives. Just a shame they’ll start the old man. Edited June 17 by The College Dropout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groundhog63 Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Anyone posted this already? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 10 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: Dont watch enough to say world class but quality players or at least massive hype: Rafa Leao Cristiano Joao Felix Bruno Fernandes Joao Neves Ruben Dias Bernardo Silva Palhinha G. Ramos Nunes from City Cancelo Pedro Neto Diogo Jota Pepe has been a world class player and was excellent the last time I saw him in the CL. The Ruben Neves would likely get a start for England. It’s a talented squad. A lot of attacking options. You can pick a much better balanced front 6 than England imo. Palhinha J. Neves / R. Neves Bernardo Fernandes Leao Jota/Ramos Nice blend of passers. Runners. Ball retainers. Creatives. Just a shame they’ll start the old man. So they don’t have more world class players, in other words. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 1 minute ago, Ronaldo said: So they don’t have more world class players, in other words. They have more quality in depth like I said. France have both. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gazza ladra Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 As a neutral, I'd take England's squad over Portugal's. Backline is an issue, but in midfield and forward line England have world class players and depth in strength. Certainly better options than Portugal IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 17 Share Posted June 17 Where’s the midfield depth? As in.. central midfield. Where’s the defensive depth. There’s 1 LB injured and 1 genuine left winger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tgarve Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 (edited) 16 hours ago, The College Dropout said: Where’s the midfield depth? As in.. central midfield. Where’s the defensive depth. There’s 1 LB injured and 1 genuine left winger. Rice Bellingham Trent Mainoo Gallagher Wharton Shaw Trippier Gomes Saka in a disaster Edited June 18 by tgarve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 18 Share Posted June 18 28 minutes ago, tgarve said: Rice Bellingham Trent Mainoo Gallagher Wharton Shaw Trippier Gomes Saka in a disaster Rice: Best as an 8. V. good at 6. Bellingham: Best as a 10. Club & NT managers don't currently see him as an 8. Good at 8 though. Gallagher: Not very good. Trent: A RB. Not very good at CM. Mainoo & Wharton: Heavily inexperienced in pro football, let alone the elite level. That's not an elite group. You either play your best 2 players in roles that aren't their best. Or you play someone who is not proven quality at this level. 1 natural left-back who hasn't played a league game since February. The other options are not quality at this level at best and a joke at worst. There's not a single department of the pitch we have strength and balance throughout except the right-hand side. Front 3 is disjointed because of Foden. Midfield disjointed. Left side is disjointed. Defence is disjointed. Central defence - lacks aggression imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 On 18/06/2024 at 06:05, The College Dropout said: We don’t have more world class players or quality in depth than France or Portugal. Didn't say we did in fairness - though I do think that there is more quality than Portugal upfront. France still have the strongest overall squad for me - but I wouldn't swap the French options in attacking positions overall Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 19 hours ago, The College Dropout said: Rice: Best as an 8. V. good at 6. Bellingham: Best as a 10. Club & NT managers don't currently see him as an 8. Good at 8 though. Gallagher: Not very good. Trent: A RB. Not very good at CM. Mainoo & Wharton: Heavily inexperienced in pro football, let alone the elite level. That's not an elite group. You either play your best 2 players in roles that aren't their best. Or you play someone who is not proven quality at this level. 1 natural left-back who hasn't played a league game since February. The other options are not quality at this level at best and a joke at worst. There's not a single department of the pitch we have strength and balance throughout except the right-hand side. Front 3 is disjointed because of Foden. Midfield disjointed. Left side is disjointed. Defence is disjointed. Central defence - lacks aggression imo. Rice and Bellingham are both midfielders - if Southgate had a clue he'd play them there. Don't need a '6' or an '8' - play them as traditional centre mids. Play Foden as a playmaker behind Kane. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Spaceman Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between a 6 and an 8? I understand a 10 is basically Peter Beardsley, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relámpago blanco Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 8 minutes ago, Dr.Spaceman said: Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between a 6 and an 8? I understand a 10 is basically Peter Beardsley, right? He was number 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 3 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said: Rice and Bellingham are both midfielders - if Southgate had a clue he'd play them there. Don't need a '6' or an '8' - play them as traditional centre mids. Play Foden as a playmaker behind Kane. Traditional CMs. One sits more, one gets forward more.... 6 & 8. Rice is better when he has licence to get around the pitch and into attacking areas. His best form for Arsenal came when he had Jorginho or Partey playing a bit deeper next to him who are more passers and a bit more progressive with it. Bellingham's in Ballon D'Or discussion for not playing a more advanced role. I think they would make a good partnership but it's a partnership that doesn't get the best out of any of them. They would both rather more proactive roles. I haven't seen enough of Jude in CM to be sure - but I think that duo might lack a passer. I agree that's a good option, but it doesn't maximise 2 of our best players. I think potentially Wharton coming in provides better balance and put 2 of our best players in their best positions but would mean dropping a big name. Kane's natural game (not necessarily his best) is better suited to having Bellingham behind him than Foden. And Foden's never done it for England. Bellingham Rice Foden Kane That suits Foden most but doesn't get the best out of the other 2 in midfield or Kane. Wharton Rice Bellingham Kane I think this has 3 of our best players, in their most natural positions. But leaves out the best player in the EPL Phil Foden. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Dr.Spaceman said: Excuse my ignorance but what's the difference between a 6 and an 8? I understand a 10 is basically Peter Beardsley, right? I would say 6 - deepest CM. Keeps his position more. 8 - box to box CM. More licence to get forward and break lines. Against Serbia - Rice kept his position more in front of the defence and TAA was getting forward when he could. I don't think that works well. TAA isn't a CM and needs to have a simple game plan if he's to succeed at CM IMO. Sit in front of the defence and pass it forward. Off the ball stay behind the ball and try to win it aggressively at turnovers or foul the opp. I don't think he can do the off-the-ball stuff well which is maybe why he was told to get forward. NUFC don't play with a natural 6. All CMs often get forward (I guess they are meant to rotate). That leaves us susceptible to turnovers in midfield if the rotation is off - which we try to mitigate with athleticism in midfield to run back into position. Both Rice and Bellingham can do that tbf. Edited June 19 by The College Dropout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBottle Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 6 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: Traditional CMs. One sits more, one gets forward more.... 6 & 8. Rice is better when he has licence to get around the pitch and into attacking areas. His best form for Arsenal came when he had Jorginho or Partey playing a bit deeper next to him who are more passers and a bit more progressive with it. Bellingham's in Ballon D'Or discussion for not playing a more advanced role. I think they would make a good partnership but it's a partnership that doesn't get the best out of any of them. They would both rather more proactive roles. I haven't seen enough of Jude in CM to be sure - but I think that duo might lack a passer. I agree that's a good option, but it doesn't maximise 2 of our best players. I think potentially Wharton coming in provides better balance and put 2 of our best players in their best positions but would mean dropping a big name. Kane's natural game (not necessarily his best) is better suited to having Bellingham behind him than Foden. And Foden's never done it for England. Bellingham Rice Foden Kane That suits Foden most but doesn't get the best out of the other 2 in midfield or Kane. Wharton Rice Bellingham Kane I think this has 3 of our best players, in their most natural positions. But leaves out the best player in the EPL Phil Foden. Yeah, I know what you're saying TCD - but for me, playing Foden as a '10' would be more likely to get the performances out of him. In terms of traditional CMs - that's exactly what I'd be looking at; agreed that it is a position slightly deeper than Bellingham's more usual position, but for me I would put him there and basically give him the freedom to push on whenever he sees fit. I'd ask Rice to stay more disciplined, despite his likely inclinations. Which would mean I'd want someone on the left who is a more natural winger, with Foden and Bellingham spending most of their time playing off or alongside Kane. Tbf I'd also go three at the back, given England's lack of defensive options. Move Walker to RCB. Play someone like TAA as a libero - a player who is a defender but does have a pass in him. So effectively a 3-3-4 as a starting formation. Perhaps I'd win nowt as a manager - but what's the difference for England in that regard? - and it would be entertaining Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 Martinez tried something similar yesterday tbf. I think it was removing an old man from looking pretty good. Midfield looked ropey defensively though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 England reckoned to be unchanged tomorrow Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Prontonise Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 2 minutes ago, Disco said: England reckoned to be unchanged tomorrow More sufferball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 Playing Foden on the left is just not the right call and I love him. It’s fucking stupid management Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leffe186 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 3 minutes ago, gbandit said: Playing Foden on the left is just not the right call and I love him. It’s fucking stupid management It fails on another level too. Forcing Kane to stay up and out of Foden’s way played into Milenkovic’s hands. The fact Southgate didn’t anticipate that is telling. I’ve defended Southgate repeatedly and the way he’s managed the squad off the pitch has been exemplary but his abject failure to make appropriate tactical changes during any match is maddening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huss9 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 stubborn man, that southgate fella. has to prove he won't be affected by any criticism. i've an unnatural hate for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiquidAK Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 Can't imagine myself ever hating him tbh. Disagree with some of his decisions, but after what he's done for the culture of the team over his tenure, hatred? Even before you get into our vastly improved tournament performances under him. Reading shite like that makes me feel so disconnected from other England fans, it's wild. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leffe186 Posted June 19 Share Posted June 19 7 minutes ago, LiquidAK said: Can't imagine myself ever hating him tbh. Disagree with some of his decisions, but after what he's done for the culture of the team over his tenure, hatred? Even before you get into our vastly improved tournament performances under him. Reading shite like that makes me feel so disconnected from other England fans, it's wild. It doesn’t help that when he’s interviewed he just sounds so insipid. Honestly think that’s what puts people off more than anything. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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