Marc Guehi

[Miercoles]

4 hours ago, St. Maximin said:

Ultimately it just seems a bit confusing to me if we welcome being owned by a country with explicitly oppressive views on homosexuality (among other things), but strongly reject buying a defender because he writes that he loves Jesus on a rainbow armband. 
 

Anyway sorry to get involved this again . I think Guehi is a very good defender and would be a great signing for us, though we’re at the point where our ageing defenders are still playing really well and Botman to come back, so might seem like we need to split the money across the team to provide more depth than necessarily a new starter. 

 

At the very least it shows a lack of professionalism. I've got zero patience for excusing the bigotry of fundy christians, but I'm also not interested in proselytizing about that so I'm going to leave it be.

 

From a purely footballing perspective, writing on the armband shows a lack of professionalism and character. The best thing for the team in that situation is to just wear the armband and focus on winning the game, not creating a needless distraction by defacing the armband you are required to wear by the league. Maybe its not a huge impact, but it is an example of him putting his personal interests ahead of the team.

 

Add to that the fact that he's never looked like much of a world beater when we played Palace, or for England, and that they tried to fuck us around on the fee last time, and I am more than happy to find another centerback with less baggage. Maybe even one who is smart enough to keep his religious bigotry on the down-low like most people do.

[Lotus]

Does Jesus ever actually mention same sex relationships?
I thought all the homophobic stuff was from the Old Testament and never actually quotes Jesus himself as he said nowt about it.

If true, that would be people inferring what his views were in the absence of any wouldn’t it?
Tricky ground…

[Miercoles]

Christianity is about as far from the teachings of Jesus as you can get.

 

25 minutes ago, Lotus said:

Does Jesus ever actually mention same sex relationships?
I thought all the homophobic stuff was from the Old Testament and never actually quotes Jesus himself as he said nowt about it.

If true, that would be people inferring what his views were in the absence of any wouldn’t it?
Tricky ground…

 

[southernmag]

Look, I'm a Christian, and I understand the strong opinions on this issue. I'm going to stick my neck out though and receive criticism if necessary, because there are one or two things I think need clarifying.

 

What it ultimately comes down to is our underlying beliefs about where we get out moral authority from. Some believe it comes from God (or a god), while others believe it's based on the opinion of the majority, etc etc. I have my view on what holds more weight in that regard, as do others.

 

It's interesting that some insist that someone like me is clearly hateful, a bigot, backward, a c**t, all terms used in the last few pages of this thread. I think if you actually met me you'd have a hard time convincing yourself I was those things. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

The Christian standpoint is effectively that God a) exists and b) because of his nature has the authority to assert what is right and wrong. This is obviously offensive/unpalatable to many, but that is the assertion. When people diverge on this fundamental worldview, then of course we're going to see stuff like homosexuality completely differently. It shouldn't surprise us.

 

I'm still learning and growing as I go through life, but the Christian claim - as I understand it - is that God's judgement of sin, and him being loving, work together, and are not a contradiction. Again - offensive to many.

 

A decent analogy to relate to this (in my view) is that as a parent, you tell your children what's right and wrong, as you have the right to do so, and you love them too much to do otherwise. You hope that they'll trust you, and do what you say. When they defy you, do you hate them? Of course not. You're disappointed, but you desire them to learn obedience. You want to reconcile with them. That's how the Bible says God views us. Any true Christian views homosexuality as one of many sins that lead us away from God (and we're all equally guilty of sin), but not that cause God to "hate" us.

 

Again - I know people have very different views on all this. But at the very least, I'd hope you wouldn't be so quick to automatically label me (or someone with my worldview) hateful etc. I think if we're honest we all know that Marc Guehi is very likely a decent human being, not a hateful, bigoted, c**t of a man. At worst, ignorant, but again, that's a claim based on wider worldviews which we could discuss till the cows come home.

 

PS not sure if NO has a private message feature but I'd be happy to talk about this stuff further in private if anyone wanted.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 15:26 by southernmag

[Lotus]

@southernmag I’m not a Christian so forgive my ignorance. I would’ve thought someone who follows the teachings of Christ would use what Christ has purported to have said as the absolute fundament of their beliefs and outlook. If Christ makes no mention of something how do you infer what his opinion was?
 

I can’t find any actual ‘quotes’ that Jesus said anything about same sex relationships at all. If he did, please correct me.

[geordie_b]

[Kid Icarus]

Bigotry takes many forms like. It isn't necessarily always hate-filled and foaming at the mouth, it quite often wears a smile and claims to only want the best for you, but it's still ultimately bigotry.

 

The parent child analogy is a good reflection on how religious people see it I think, but also unintentionally a perfect example of why the views of religious people and how they view themselves and gay people is insufferable too.

 

An analogy that starts with the paternalistic premise of 'I'm the adult you're the child' has incredibly patronising connotations before even getting on to how it's ironic, or how the parent might not hate their child, but they will punish them for their own good.

 

Not trying to be confrontational, just saying why I think a lot of these 'I want the best for you' stances are met with justifiable outrage.

 

 

Edited Saturday at 15:56 by Kid Icarus

[southernmag]

7 minutes ago, Lotus said:

@southernmag I’m not a Christian so forgive my ignorance. I would’ve thought someone who follows the teachings of Christ would use what Christ has purported to have said as the absolute fundament of their beliefs and outlook. If Christ makes no mention of something how do you infer what his opinion was?
 

I can’t find any actual ‘quotes’ that Jesus said anything about same sex relationships at all. If he did, please correct me.

 

I think the short answer is that the Bible asserts Jesus 'fulfilled' the Old Testament law (as in, without exception and to the fullest degree), therefore endorsing all of its contents, even if his views on specific issues aren't always recorded in the New Testament.

 

But again I'm happy to discuss further elsewhere - I'm trying to resist clogging this thread up further with a God debate.

[The Butcher]

Wouldn't mind signing him before, but after reading the last few pages I hope he goes elsewhere

[Lotus]

Yeah, no worries. 
 

To reaffirm, I’m not saying Guehi wouldn’t be good, it’s just that from my limited perspective there’s probably better players for the supposed money.

[Ghandis Flip-Flop]

25 minutes ago, southernmag said:

Look, I'm a Christian, and I understand the strong opinions on this issue. I'm going to stick my neck out though and receive criticism if necessary, because there are one or two things I think need clarifying.

 

What it ultimately comes down to is our underlying beliefs about where we get out moral authority from. Some believe it comes from God (or a god), while others believe it's based on the opinion of the majority, etc etc. I have my view on what holds more weight in that regard, as do others.

 

It's interesting that some insist that someone like me is clearly hateful, a bigot, backward, a c**t, all terms used in the last few pages of this thread. I think if you actually met me you'd have a hard time convincing yourself I was those things. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

The Christian standpoint is effectively that God a) exists and b) because of his nature has the authority to assert what is right and wrong. This is obviously offensive/unpalatable to many, but that is the assertion. When people diverge on this fundamental worldview, then of course we're going to see stuff like homosexuality completely differently. It shouldn't surprise us.

 

I'm still learning and growing as I go through life, but the Christian claim - as I understand it - is that God's judgement of sin, and him being loving, work together, and are not a contradiction. Again - offensive to many.

 

A decent analogy to relate to this (in my view) is that as a parent, you tell your children what's right and wrong, as you have the right to do so, and you love them too much to do otherwise. You hope that they'll trust you, and do what you say. When they defy you, do you hate them? Of course not. You're disappointed, but you desire them to learn obedience. You want to reconcile with them. That's how the Bible says God views us. Any true Christian views homosexuality as one of many sins that lead us away from God (and we're all equally guilty of sin), but not that cause God to "hate" us.

 

Again - I know people have very different views on all this. But at the very least, I'd hope you wouldn't be so quick to automatically label me (or someone with my worldview) hateful etc. I think if we're honest we all know that Marc Guehi is very likely a decent human being, not a hateful, bigoted, c**t of a man. At worst, ignorant, but again, that's a claim based on wider worldviews which we could discuss till the cows come home.

 

PS not sure if NO has a private message feature but I'd be happy to talk about this stuff further in private if anyone wanted.

 

 

 

Mate the only mentions around homosexuality in the bible are by Leviticus, hope you’ve not worn a garment of more than two threads or eaten any seafood as they’re also abominations.
 

As others have said there's no mention of homosexuality by Christ himself. I mean it’s not as if anything might’ve also been lost in translation or deliberately altered in the changes from Aramaic, to Hebrew, to Latin and then to English either is there? 🤦🏻‍♂️

 

 

Edited Saturday at 15:49 by Ghandis Flip-Flop

[southernmag]

FWIW I think Guehi could be a good signing for a reasonable (say sub 40m) fee.

 

I'm not fully convinced by him but we've seen what Eddie and co can do to players to raise their level.

[southernmag]

You'll be glad to hear I'm not gonna nibble on any more God stuff in this thread. Much as I'm tempted, it's not really the place.

[BonesJones]

Personally couldn't care less what other men are upto in bed. Women on the other hand...

[St. Maximin]

21 hours ago, Tiresias said:

 

You absolutely don't get to 'like' me and think me being gay is 'wrong'.  It's part of the package, and I find that view often expressed by people excusing their prejudices as religious objections, that they 'love' someone, not their 'sexuality' or anything and it's an insidious work around to pretend that 'loving and accepting others' is an easy thing that requires no effort or empathy on someones part, it just becomes merely to patronize. There is a fundamental dishonesty at work there just the same as those racists who have one non-white friend at work whom they will insist is "alright". If someone thinks my sexuality is immoral that's fine that's your imperative, but don't sit here and pretend your hatred of it is 'love' in disguise because if they did they'd have to have a hard look at their own value system to acknowledge you hate someone and if they've read the bible cover to cover and think that's the message it's sending fine, it's all open to interpretation, but don't put a smile on and think they can be friends with me while holding that view. 

 

People can bring up 'gay marriage' as an issue as if that's a policy thing, but again if there wasn't any hate where is all the campaigning against atheists getting married, or indeed people of other religions getting married? And lets spell out, if they don't want me to get gay married they are saying I don't deserve to have my long term partner by my hospital bed when i'm dying, don't deserve to have all those legal rights, my love is lesser than an atheist marrying a jewish person or something?

 

Again really, everyone is absolutely entitled to hold whatever views, but I am also free to not want to smile and make nice with someone who thinks i am lesser no matter if it is couched in 'niceness'. I love going to football matches, I do not confirm to the stereotype of a gay person so I can be fairly unnoticed in that crowd. My partner is too, so I'm not concerned about attending games, but it still meant a lot when i walked into the ground and there was a rainbow flag waving in the gallogate. Seeing their players with rainbow armbands may seem like nothing but could be important to some frightened 14 year old growing up in a macho strict family. All to same, it matters. 

 

I also do agree that i don't know enough about Guehi's viewpoint. I will give any benefit of the doubt if he ever clarifies or anything, it's not me trying to get him removed from polite society, i do not resent him enjoying a good career, i dont think anyone signing him is acting immorally, it's just at present not in danger of being a player i love

 

(edited to change general 'you to they as i accidently made it sound targeted which wasn't meant)

 

 

 

I appreciate your honesty here but I just don’t think that first claim is right at all. I know I keep mentioning it but I know lots of Christians so I’m in a good place to comment here and I’m a bit disappointed that gets overlooked tbh. There are loads of things that put me off Christianity including the homosexuality teaching, but I know they believe certain behaviour is ‘wrong’ rather than being gay, in the same way they think lots of other behaviours (that they acknowledge they do themselves) are wrong. If you ask me that’s stupid and it leads to all sorts of unpleasant behaviour towards certain communities including LGBTQ, but I don’t think we should disguise that with the average religious person who happens to have an opinion on something but doesn’t want to treat people any differently for it. And like I’ve said before, a lot of people are very conflicted and uncomfortable with their own beliefs, especially when they happen to have gay friends and family. So it’s important we appreciate the complexities and struggles here rather than seeing this as a black and white issue. 
 

I know plenty of LGBTQ people that have friends and family who are Christian and they quite clearly do like each other as people even if they have disagreements over things. I used to play for a sports team affiliated with a conservative evangelical church (though I reckon under 50% were churchgoers). There was a gay couple that joined and one of them was made captain - they were fully aware what the church thought, but knew they were welcomed in and not judged because lifestyle choices don’t mean you should be thought of as a worse person or treated differently (even if some people tragically do get that bit wrong). I’m sure most of us have also been in jobs where there were gay colleagues and Christian/Muslim colleagues and chances are the latter might have had similar views to Guehi but it’s never talked about or seen as an issue. 

This doesn’t mean that views on, say gay marriage, should be seen as justifiable. I felt it was ridiculous that some people told me I was supposed to be against it even as a Christian. However, I know Christians are very much in an uncomfortable and conflicted position over it purely because they do love and care for others but believe they have to be consistent to the Bible (and often I think they aren’t, but that’s their interpretation). Sensitive topic for me still even as an agnostic who thinks religion is ridiculous, because I don’t want to be told my family and friends aren’t loving even if they have some puzzling views. 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 10:56 by St. Maximin

[ExiledGeordie]

Whether or not we sign him he has the physical ability to deal with players like Watkins who we struggled with yesterday. 

[TheBrownBottle]

15 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

I know they believe certain behaviour is ‘wrong’ rather than being gay,

You can be gay as long as you don’t act on it - it’s all down to them not wanting to sound prejudiced (while absolutely being that very thing)

[St. Maximin]

16 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

You can be gay as long as you don’t act on it - it’s all down to them not wanting to sound prejudiced (while absolutely being that very thing)

Mate I’ve put some detailed stuff in here trying to outline the complexities, which I think has been fair and balanced, but it’s often only the odd sentences that you’re responding to.
 

I’ve written tonnes about what a difficult situation this is for Christians, who don’t want to hold those views but feel they have to and become conflicted. Surely we can understand that without agreeing, rather than seeing them just as people full of hatred. 
 

Like I said it’s hardly stopping many of them from having friendships with gay people so maybe not everyone sees their personal views in quite the same way?

 

 

Edited Sunday at 11:28 by St. Maximin

[Lush Vlad]

Marc Guehi and Idrissa Gana Gueye have both caused controversy around this gay stuff. I reckon they’re both in the closet. 

[Theregulars]

20 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

Bigotry takes many forms like. It isn't necessarily always hate-filled and foaming at the mouth, it quite often wears a smile and claims to only want the best for you, but it's still ultimately bigotry.

 

The parent child analogy is a good reflection on how religious people see it I think, but also unintentionally a perfect example of why the views of religious people and how they view themselves and gay people is insufferable too.

 

An analogy that starts with the paternalistic premise of 'I'm the adult you're the child' has incredibly patronising connotations before even getting on to how it's ironic, or how the parent might not hate their child, but they will punish them for their own good.

 

Not trying to be confrontational, just saying why I think a lot of these 'I want the best for you' stances are met with justifiable outrage.

 

 

 

I think the other issue that atheists have is that the “teachings” of the Bible were thought up and codified many thousands of years ago; social / moral / cultural etc attitudes have changed massively in that time span, in a way which I would say is generally for the better in terms of tolerance and social harmony (although there are of course many problems in this regard).

 

What I think some find challenging is the refusal / lack of desire / lack of perception of need to modify accordingly. 
 

I have met and know Christians who are completely tolerant and see it as a flaw in the church, others who interpret things more literally. From my standpoint, I don’t see why an outdated moral guidance / set of rules should triumph over scientific evidence and lived experience to the contrary.
 

Accordingly, I find it frustrating that people are considered a “sinner” (which to the non-believer can be patronising) for being who they are  naturally. The knowledge that many millions of people perceive you as somehow “wrong” or morally questionable for being yourself is (I would imagine) stigmatic in practice for homosexuals. One of my closest friends is homosexual and his upbringing in a catholic society damaged him badly. 
 

I think there is also a quite laudable British quality / attitude of “mind your own business” - if it has no adverse impact on your life, why is it so problematic?

 

Lastly on this ramble, religious belief and resulting behaviours and opinions are - and long have been - a significant cause for division and antipathy amongst a species whose societies are naturally communal and better-served unified. It has been exploited, sometimes in good faith and often not, to carry out appalling acts of slaughter and wanton violence. History is littered with so many examples that I consider this point trite. 
 

With that said, should somebody be slated / stigmatised for promulgating Christian beliefs, either this particularly point directly or more generally? No; that wouldn’t help and undermines the value of free speech and societal development. But I think it is right - and in the public interest - that such behaviour is scrutinised and discussed. In Guehi’s case it is quite provocative in my view - why does it need to be made public? Aside from being naive and (again in my view) quite selfish, it just seems an avoidable flashpoint.

[Theregulars]

I should add that I think religion and being religious does have many virtues - local community, comfort with some of the hardest aspects of being a human, and promoting and practicing many actions and viewpoints that are ethical