Nick Woltemade

[LFEE]

4 hours ago, Begbie said:

 

Do you want the Isak we signed in 2022, a winger that scored 10 goals in 41 games a season or the Isak we sold(ie World Class forward)? 

 

Isak had 10 goals in 27 games his first season and was in and out of the team.

Woltemade has 9 in 25 now, if he scores in one of the next 2 matches he will have equal stat as Isak in his first season. Remember we where flying the Isak season.. 

 

Woltemade has played more then he was suppose to, he was suppose to learn from Wissa this season. 

I will wait untill next season before I judge him, and see if our coaching team can form him to the striker we want. 

 

 

That first point just highlights my point of a player playing/suites one team and not another 

 

You are falling into the same trap as others are though. Read my posts. The team is doing well for Woltemade but not necessarily the other way round. So goals per game is irrelevant in this discussion. It’s performances and racking up bigger wins that I’m dissecting. You’ve kind of proven my point by saying Isak individually didn’t do as well yet overall the team worked better/was flying.

 

 

[LFEE]

2 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

Put on a plate seems a bit harsh.  Spurs in the cup when it was a keeper error and Chelsea when it fell to him, (he was in the right place to put it in, surely you like that?!).  The headers have been decent, as have the flicks.  It's not like he's been scoring tap ins 4 yards out all the while.  Although, based on some of your later comments.  You might prefer it if they were   Fair enough one was a penalty.  But it was a ruthless finish.  

 

The Chelsea game and the City games showed glimpses of him showing some more natural instincts and looking to make those runs in behind or into the box.  How many of Isak's goals would have been 'put on a plate' for him, using whatever your criteria is?!  I also distinctly remember being plenty of chatter on here about Isak often pulling off to the penalty spot and not attacking the 6 yard box or the box in general enough.  He improved on this loads and then got worse again in a lot of games.  Barnes second v Man U and a couple of others he got pelters for not being the one on the end of it.  

 

So in that regard, I'm not sure it's fair to have a go at him for being a bit slow and not being able to outpace Willock, one of our quickest players.  Or keep up with Barnes who arguably makes the best runs in our whole squad and timed it to perfection.

 

I also referenced him needing to adapt his game.  But you seem to have somehow conveniently ignored that bit.  I'm not sure he is a natural finisher, he has already missed some easy chances, I think a couple have been offside or would have been offside, luckily for him and us.  The same as his those instincts around what runs to make and almost sniffing out the chance the way that someone like Wissa does, is often lacking.  I'm not sure how much you can coach these attributes.  But I think he has already shown improvement in this regard, as mentioned above.

 

I'm also not only on about goals or chances when I say we don't play to his strengths.  CB's have started going really tight to him and following him.  Meaning he is losing some contested balls, but also that we don't always look to pass it to him and trust him in that situation.  Nor do we have anyone close to him for him to lay it off to.  It creates a lot of space for the wide me to come off their wing (like Gordon and Barnes do at times already) and also for our 8's to get beyond him.  He is often contesting for balls and doesn't usually lose it straight away or anything.  So why have we not looked to get a midfielder closer to him for lay offs or to win the second ball?  He regularly looks isolated and stood up there like his only role is to win headers and be the big man in a 4-5-1 for a defensive team.  Which he isn't and we certainly aren't.

 

On you saying you're possibly being too harsh.  I certainly think you are.  Describing him as a lumbering CF and making out like our entire team needs to change to suit him.  When in fact some tweaks from certain players and passing patterns and some changes from Woltemade himself.  Could see us being a very effective side.  Especially when we were already getting found out in games last season and gripes around the 4-3-3 and lack of flexibility have been mentioned numerous times over Howe's tenure.  Do most competitive to successful sides play the same way year after year after year?  I very much doubt that. 

 

If you're that way inclined, I think he is slightly outperforming his xG in the league at +1.1 and that includes a penalty, which is 0.7 odd.  9 in 20 starts and 6 sub apps in all comps isn't too shabby.

 

This is someone who wasn't expected to start straight out the gate, who is young and a very different style of player and not renowned for his goals.  Coming from a league where they don't defend, too.  All feels extremely premature and like you're being a bit of a contrarian to boot.  

I did say I was probably being a bit harsh but my point still stands that none of the goals he’s made out of very little and fashioned a chance or goal for himself apart from the two I mentioned. Not saying he hasn’t finished the chances well the team has presented for him.

 

Your next point is the reality of this league and one he needs to adapt to not the team. IMO. He’s got to hold the ball up better and not be out jumped by 5ft nothing Martinez for example.

 

This point is the one I hope I’m wrong with genuinely and it will take a few small tweaks. I also said the change of style might make us less predictable after 3yrs playing a similar way.

 

Not that way inclined. Prefer to sense the fear defenders have when your CF has the ball and the mood change in the ground.

 

Like I said I’m probably being a bit harsh on him and I’ve made it clear it’s an early call. That’s me though. I’ve always tried to make an assessment fairly early as a base point and will assess it as his time here progresses. Anyone can just have no opinion then jump on a sure thing after performing well regularly. See my thoughts on Isak during his time here. He left with the same flaws that he came with.

 

 

Edited January 6 by LFEE

[Kanj]

2 points off 5th with a rebuilt CF room with a kid who’s new to the league and newish to first team top flight football in arguably the most unforgiving league and another CF who is coming back from his first major injury in years. 
 

In the league cup semi final. Still in the CL. Have the FA cup this weekend. 
 

All good lads! 

[Lush Vlad]

1 hour ago, LFEE said:

I did say I was probably being a bit harsh but my point still stands that none of the goals he’s made out of very little and fashioned a chance or goal for himself apart from the two I mentioned. Not saying he hasn’t finished the chances well the team has presented for him.

 

Your next point is the reality of this league and one he needs to adapt to not the team. IMO. He’s got to hold the ball up better and not be out jumped by 5ft nothing Martinez for example.

 

This point is the one I hope I’m wrong with genuinely and it will take a few small tweaks. I also said the change of style might make us less predictable after 3yrs playing a similar way.

 

Not that way inclined. Prefer to sense the fear defenders have when your CF has the ball and the mood change in the ground.

 

Like I said I’m probably being a bit harsh on him and I’ve made it clear it’s an early call. That’s me though. I’ve always tried to make an assessment fairly early as a base point and will assess it as his time here progresses. Anyone can just have no opinion then jump on a sure thing after performing well regularly. See my thoughts on Isak during his time here. He left with the same flaws that he came with.

 

 

 

 

You don't think, that might skew your opinion on the player afterwards?  You've made your point, you've gone early and then even if they're showing you something different.  You're sticking to your guns.  Seems like previous biases would take over and influence how you feel.  But that is just my opinion.  I think your views on Isak sort of prove this in my eyes. 

 

I remember you saying Isak wasn't world class/elite or whatever it was.  He was never a ruthless finisher when he joined and he massively improved his movement in the box during his time here.  He became far more aggressive, as well.  3 good scoring seasons in a much tougher league than the ones he had been playing in.  He was poor back to goal and holding it up and in the air for his height, which you've levelled at Woltemade.  Obviously the pace in behind and his dribbling ability balance that out.  There isn't a perfect 9 in all of world football at the minute, I wouldn't have said.  They all have some flaws.  Half interested in what you think his flaws still were when he left.  But we've also gone round in circles a bit.  So not sure I can be arsed to carry it on  

 

 

Edited January 6 by Lush Vlad

[Kanj]

Isak really only scored pretty goals prior to joining us, and what Eddie worked on (which finally culminated in the final season with us) where he was scoring all types of goals. 

 

You would assume our coaching staff would have identified areas of improvement, and are now working through that with Woltemade - including runs he makes, aggression in the box, etc. 

 

 

Edited January 6 by Kanj

[Nexumaster]

Has there been any talk of playing both Nick and Wissa? Big man/Little man combo? Couple of deft touches from Nick occupying defenders and send Wissa through. 

Sacrifices a midfielder of course, which I imagine is why it won't be entertained.

[Tisd09]

4 minutes ago, Nexumaster said:

Has there been any talk of playing both Nick and Wissa? Big man/Little man combo? Couple of deft touches from Nick occupying defenders and send Wissa through. 

Sacrifices a midfielder of course, which I imagine is why it won't be entertained.

I think the only time we will see something like this is if we are chasing the game or if we are very comfortable so Eddie will be happy to experiment. 

 

 

[MagPar]

13 minutes ago, Nexumaster said:

Has there been any talk of playing both Nick and Wissa? Big man/Little man combo? Couple of deft touches from Nick occupying defenders and send Wissa through. 

Sacrifices a midfielder of course, which I imagine is why it won't be entertained.

I've been begging for it but know it wont happen unfortunately. Or we could play Wissa in one of the winger positions but playing more as a Salah type position(don't know which side he's best on) with Nick in the middle. Need players to close in on Nick for potential lay ons and flicks.

 

His two (3 if you count the og) headers were great, his backheeled goal, THAT penalty kick, the wee flicked goal, the chipped keeper goal. All signs of pure class. The whole team has looked very static going forward in many games this season and some of the service has been aweful so GET OFF THE KID'S BACK YA BAMS.

 

Thanks 

[Begbie]

2 hours ago, LFEE said:

 

That first point just highlights my point of a player playing/suites one team and not another 

 

You are falling into the same trap as others are though. Read my posts. The team is doing well for Woltemade but not necessarily the other way round. So goals per game is irrelevant in this discussion. It’s performances and racking up bigger wins that I’m dissecting. You’ve kind of proven my point by saying Isak individually didn’t do as well yet overall the team worked better/was flying.

 

 

No im not, and you are dodging my question. Im asking you which kind of player you want us to sign because the Isak we signed and the Isak we sold was to different players. One was a talented winger who could play as a striker, the other was a world class striker. Its a big difference in transfer fee and wages.

 

The reason im showing the stats of both is because I havent written Woltemade off yet, and hope we can make a striker that suits us like we did with Isak. Like you, I dont think he really suits us, but I am willing to give him another season(like with Isak). The first season wasnt that Isak suited the team that made us flying, Wilson was actually better for the team that season. Higher and better press, faster passing, more players in the box and more players scoring goals that season made the team better. We did not have players ballwatching like we have in todays team. We have jet to get to that level, and did not the last season with Isak here..

 

I do not agree with you about the team being good for Woltemade. If anything we have not been good for eachother. I would also say that we were good for Isak, and not the other way around. Our gamestyle last season was very much set up to play too Isaks strenghts..

[TRon]

11 minutes ago, Begbie said:

No im not, and you are dodging my question. Im asking you which kind of player you want us to sign because the Isak we signed and the Isak we sold was to different players. One was a talented winger who could play as a striker, the other was a world class striker. Its a big difference in transfer fee and wages.

 

The reason im showing the stats of both is because I havent written Woltemade off yet, and hope we can make a striker that suits us like we did with Isak. Like you, I dont think he really suits us, but I am willing to give him another season(like with Isak). The first season wasnt that Isak suited the team that made us flying, Wilson was actually better for the team that season. Higher and better press, faster passing, more players in the box and more players scoring goals that season made the team better. We did not have players ballwatching like we have in todays team. We have jet to get to that level, and did not the last season with Isak here..

 

I do not agree with you about the team being good for Woltemade. If anything we have not been good for eachother. I would also say that we were good for Isak, and not the other way around. Our gamestyle last season was very much set up to play too Isaks strenghts..

 

 

I never saw Isak as a winger at any time tbh. From the first game where he scored two absolute scorchers against Liverpool, I only saw a striker. Yes he could pull wide effectively, but he never really looked like a winger. 

[janpawel]

I'm someone who doesn't think we'll see Wolte as a 10 / SS other than the odd game 

 

Do think if we can play with Wissa and Barnes on the wings with Wolte in the middle, we could try to emulate what Liverpool had with Mane, Firmino, Salah

 

Barnes and Wissa as goal threats, coming narrow and making those dangerous runs in behind, Wolte playing them in, and Joelinton also making that run in behind that Schar often finds

[LFEE]

2 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

You don't think, that might skew your opinion on the player afterwards?  You've made your point, you've gone early and then even if they're showing you something different.  You're sticking to your guns.  Seems like previous biases would take over and influence how you feel.  But that is just my opinion.  I think your views on Isak sort of prove this in my eyes. 

 

I remember you saying Isak wasn't world class/elite or whatever it was.  He was never a ruthless finisher when he joined and he massively improved his movement in the box during his time here.  He became far more aggressive, as well.  3 good scoring seasons in a much tougher league than the ones he had been playing in.  He was poor back to goal and holding it up and in the air for his height, which you've levelled at Woltemade.  Obviously the pace in behind and his dribbling ability balance that out.  There isn't a perfect 9 in all of world football at the minute, I wouldn't have said.  They all have some flaws.  Half interested in what you think his flaws still were when he left.  But we've also gone round in circles a bit.  So not sure I can be arsed to carry it on  

 

 

 

The flaws were the ones you pointed out. Poor hold up play , not very strong on his left foot and when he had too much time to think he’d start thinking about the smart option and usually fluff the 1v1 and also thought he fatigued 70mins quite a lot.

 

He was however great for us still. Knew very little about him when he arrived but you couldn’t be anything other than impressed by his debut. Was more the following game when you started to notice his flaws that for me never improved (Home to Bournemouth?). Again go back to the summer and I was firmly in the camp of not selling Isak for at least 12 more months.

 

Not chasing perfection as I agree it doesn’t exist however I feel we could’ve signed a better fit and avoided all the question marks and adjustments etc IMO.

 

As a fan I’m just sitting back and looking forward to seeing how it all pans out as I’m not sure “simple” adjustments solve the conundrum of getting him in goal scoring positions when the defenders this far have proven to be faster and more aggressive than anything he’s come up against.

 

Probably bags a hat trick tomorrow night 

[LFEE]

1 hour ago, Begbie said:

No im not, and you are dodging my question. Im asking you which kind of player you want us to sign because the Isak we signed and the Isak we sold was to different players. One was a talented winger who could play as a striker, the other was a world class striker. Its a big difference in transfer fee and wages.

 

The reason im showing the stats of both is because I havent written Woltemade off yet, and hope we can make a striker that suits us like we did with Isak. Like you, I dont think he really suits us, but I am willing to give him another season(like with Isak). The first season wasnt that Isak suited the team that made us flying, Wilson was actually better for the team that season. Higher and better press, faster passing, more players in the box and more players scoring goals that season made the team better. We did not have players ballwatching like we have in todays team. We have jet to get to that level, and did not the last season with Isak here..

 

I do not agree with you about the team being good for Woltemade. If anything we have not been good for eachother. I would also say that we were good for Isak, and not the other way around. Our gamestyle last season was very much set up to play too Isaks strenghts..

Ekitike (type forward) who cost around the same as Nick. However our bluff was called hence why I said we should’ve kept Isak. You can see the thinking with Delap and Pedro too. Whereas with big Nick I couldn’t see the logic particularly at the fee. Especially when we saw how Chris Wood ultimately faired in our system but flourished prior and after in Burnley’s and Forests.

 

Ive not written him off either and happy to give him 18 months also. I just don’t see the simple adjustments we can make to turn him into a regular match winner.

 

Time will tell as it always does. Hope he’s a big success.

[Conjo]

3 hours ago, Begbie said:

No im not, and you are dodging my question. Im asking you which kind of player you want us to sign because the Isak we signed and the Isak we sold was to different players. One was a talented winger who could play as a striker, the other was a world class striker. Its a big difference in transfer fee and wages.

 

The reason im showing the stats of both is because I havent written Woltemade off yet, and hope we can make a striker that suits us like we did with Isak. Like you, I dont think he really suits us, but I am willing to give him another season(like with Isak). The first season wasnt that Isak suited the team that made us flying, Wilson was actually better for the team that season. Higher and better press, faster passing, more players in the box and more players scoring goals that season made the team better. We did not have players ballwatching like we have in todays team. We have jet to get to that level, and did not the last season with Isak here..

 

I do not agree with you about the team being good for Woltemade. If anything we have not been good for eachother. I would also say that we were good for Isak, and not the other way around. Our gamestyle last season was very much set up to play too Isaks strenghts..

 

Coming in a bit cold here, but in what world was Isak a winger who could play as a striker before he came here?

 

2021/22

 

2020/21

 

2019/20

 

2018/19

 

2017/18

 

2016/17

 

2015/16

[Nucasol]

12 hours ago, Conjo said:

 

Coming in a bit cold here, but in what world was Isak a winger who could play as a striker before he came here?

 

2021/22

 

2020/21

 

2019/20

 

2018/19

 

2017/18

 

2016/17

 

2015/16

Senterspiss is a great position. The person choosing the middle urinal.

[Earp]

Isn't it a case of him simply attacking the box more? Add that to his game and he'd have bagged another 2/3 over the last few games.

[Begbie]

22 hours ago, LFEE said:

Ekitike (type forward) who cost around the same as Nick. However our bluff was called hence why I said we should’ve kept Isak. You can see the thinking with Delap and Pedro too. Whereas with big Nick I couldn’t see the logic particularly at the fee. Especially when we saw how Chris Wood ultimately faired in our system but flourished prior and after in Burnley’s and Forests.

 

Ive not written him off either and happy to give him 18 months also. I just don’t see the simple adjustments we can make to turn him into a regular match winner.

 

Time will tell as it always does. Hope he’s a big success.

I would also go for Ekiteki type of forward, ie more energy type of forward. 

 

Think Howe was hoping to keep Isak, but I do think Isaks head was turned and think he would have refused to play even if we made him stay - at least he would have been injury free 😅

[ponsaelius]

23 hours ago, LFEE said:

Ekitike (type forward) who cost around the same as Nick. However our bluff was called hence why I said we should’ve kept Isak. You can see the thinking with Delap and Pedro too. Whereas with big Nick I couldn’t see the logic particularly at the fee. Especially when we saw how Chris Wood ultimately faired in our system but flourished prior and after in Burnley’s and Forests.

 

Ive not written him off either and happy to give him 18 months also. I just don’t see the simple adjustments we can make to turn him into a regular match winner.

 

Time will tell as it always does. Hope he’s a big success.

 

Don't think Woltemade is anything like Chris Wood mind. Although I'd agree both are equally unsuited to our team as currently set up.

[Miggys First Goal]

One of two things happens when the ball comes to him, it either just bounces off him, or he tries back heels that come of 50% of the time. 

[La Parka]

He's not the answer for us.

 

But in a side that control the game like arsenal he'd thrive.

 

We can't play to his strengths and our strengths make him look weak. 

 

[Jack14Bojangles]

I think Nick is having a good game today. Some good runs where he unfortunately wasn't passed to.

The assist was so delicate.

[RUHRLYASLEEVESUP]

Just the one assist so far this game 

 

[buzza]

Wissa suits us so much more than woltemade, he hangs on the line of the defence and is rapid whereas we seems to be always waiting on woltemade to arrive.

If we played a less Direct more possession based Game I think he would really shine.

Great touch for the assist tho

[Lush Vlad]

I didn’t think we were much better with Wissa on FWIW. Plus he missed a very big chance and was mainly at fault for their 3rd. 
 

When Barnes and Gordon started drifting infield. We looked really dangerous and Woltemade got involved. We even scored. Funny that.  
 

Not sure why we insist on getting our wingers to get chalk on their boots for so long. Leaving Woltemade about 30 yards of space all on his own with 2-3 CB’s and often a DM in front to stop any supply into him regardless. 
 

He does need to change his game in certain ways. But we don’t get the best out of him, either. 

[500bhp]

Probably one for the Unpopular Opinions thread but if we can get our money back this summer I'd sell him!

 

He plays back to goal all game and spends too much time near the centre circle. No good for our style of play. He is clearly an excellent footballer and will be great in the correct team and formation but that's not us right now and I cannot see us changing our whole formation and approach to accommodate him. Sell him to Bayern this summer for £70m to replace Kane or play alongside him. Then use the cash to buy a proper number 9 who fits our team. Lovely lad and great player but wrong team wrong time.