If not Howe, then who?

[r0cafella]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

3rd, but from 1st and a drop off of 20 points on their previous season. We're looking at about the same sort of drop off %-wise. 

 

The bit in bold is exactly my point!  If it can happen to him...

Indeed but the points drop isn't the relevant part in our context. We need European football on a consistent basis, which is why such a massive drop off for us is an issue. 

 

City can afford to slip to first as it's just a bit of hurt pride they go again knowing they will be there or thereabouts with a world class manager who's done it all. Us on the other hand are back in the pack without that world class manager (no offense or shade here just being objective) with a massive budget deficit. 

[Mills and Boon]

3 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

I know we were, that’s why it’s infuriating that we’ve become the antithesis of everything Howe’s NUFC initially stood for.

 

We’ve become both stale and soft at exactly the same time. 
 

And sadly, I’ve not seen anything from Howe recently to suggest he can get us back to where we were. And ultimately the buck stops with him for consistent on-field mistakes. 
 

And no-one can say for sure if he can turn it round or not. So whatever NUFC decide to do is a gamble. 

 

Why not? We've seen him do it before and we were in a worse state then than we are now

[bobbydazzla]

1 minute ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

Why not? We've seen him do it before and we were in a worse state then than we are now

Because no one can predict the future, that’s why. 

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, r0cafella said:

Indeed but the points drop isn't the relevant part in our context. We need European football on a consistent basis, which is why such a massive drop off for us is an issue. 

 

City can afford to slip to first as it's just a bit of hurt pride they go again knowing they will be there or thereabouts with a world class manager who's done it all. Us on the other hand are back in the pack without that world class manager (no offense or shade here just being objective) with a massive budget deficit. 

The point is that the drop off isn't necessarily as a result of the manager. We can say that no Europe and the drop off is an issue for us all we like, but that doesn't mean it's the manager's fault, that getting a new one would rectify the problem, or even that we're in any position to make such demands on any manager anyway.

[Kid Icarus]

5 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

Plenty of examples across all walks of life where someone has something special and then loses their mojo and never regains it. That’s just human nature. 
 

I hope he can, but I suspect he can’t. 
 

And I wasn’t calling anyone an Eddie Howe FC supporter ya dafty. Stop looking for row. 

 

 

 

I'm not man, I'm just saying.

[Holmesy]

10 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

I mean they're individual errors, what exactly is he supposed to do to mitigate them? It's not a systemic problem, there's not a formation or tactic that he can employ which will prevent Botman from pulling a shirt, Thiaw from falling over or the keepers from letting in a soft goal. It's basic stuff that the players are getting wrong that the manager can't legislate for. 

 

I don't think "why doesn't he try playing like Barca?" is a legit strategy mind. We're still limited by the players we have 

We haven't lost 14 Pl games this season and the other cup games because of individual errors. They account for some but not the majority - the majority of defeats are because our tactics haven't worked this season and we're defensively weak. And we routinely let the opposition get to our weak defence. Then the errors become a lot more frequent and a lot more costly.

 

[TheBrownBottle]

6 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

Plenty of examples across all walks of life where someone has something special and then loses their mojo and never regains it. That’s just human nature. 
 

I hope he can, but I suspect he can’t. 
 

And I wasn’t calling anyone an Eddie Howe FC supporter ya dafty. Stop looking for row. 

 

 

 

[AngelofTheFourth]

Howe is the best manager for the position we will be in next season. With no football. 8+ teams in the league on Europe. Expectations lower. Just look what it's done to Manchester United this season. However after next season unless he wins the league then he needs to be sacked. Jose would be good choice anyone with proven European experience it's the biggest difference between Howe and the Pep, Emery and Arteta.

 

You can see with the way they play and how they change in tactics at certian matches they really know what they are doing. 

[TheBrownBottle]

20 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

I mean they're individual errors, what exactly is he supposed to do to mitigate them? It's not a systemic problem, there's not a formation or tactic that he can employ which will prevent Botman from pulling a shirt, Thiaw from falling over or the keepers from letting in a soft goal. It's basic stuff that the players are getting wrong that the manager can't legislate for. 

 

I don't think "why doesn't he try playing like Barca?" is a legit strategy mind. We're still limited by the players we have 

The ‘individual errors’ thing that Howe is trotting out a lot is likely to be causing problems in the dressing room, as well as being a failure to be introspective on what’s going wrong.  ‘It’s nothing to do with me or what I’m doing - these daft cunts keep making mistakes.  My plan was perfect, they’ve made an arse of it again’. 

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, AngelofTheFourth said:

Howe is the best manager for the position we will be in next season. With no football. 8+ teams in the league on Europe. Expectations lower. Just look what it's done to Manchester United this season. However after next season unless he wins the league then he needs to be sacked. Jose would be good choice anyone with proven European experience it's the biggest difference between Howe and the Pep, Emery and Arteta.

 

You can see with the way they play and how they change in tactics at certian matches they really know what they are doing. 

Not sure I read that right - Howe should keep his position, but failure to win the league next season should mean he’s sacked?  
 

I think the fairest thing would be to sack him now if that’s the case.  We’re not winning the title next season even if Pep decides he fancies living in Northumberland 

[Mills and Boon]

Just now, bobbydazzla said:

Because no one can predict the future, that’s why. 

 

It's not about predicting the future you donut, it's about whether or not Howe has the skill set to get these players to see out a lead. And we know he has, because we've seen him do it.

 

I'm not going to convince you, I know that. You're into "mojo" and nebulous shite like that doesn't gel well with rational thinking 

[Holmesy]

22 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

I mean they're individual errors, what exactly is he supposed to do to mitigate them? It's not a systemic problem, there's not a formation or tactic that he can employ which will prevent Botman from pulling a shirt, Thiaw from falling over or the keepers from letting in a soft goal. It's basic stuff that the players are getting wrong that the manager can't legislate for. 

 

I don't think "why doesn't he try playing like Barca?" is a legit strategy mind. We're still limited by the players we have 

You don't have to be Barcelona to keep the ball. Passing and moving are two of the fundamentals of football. It just needs to be something coached into the players and built into the system. There's a reason we don't do it. 
 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

10 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

Why not? We've seen him do it before and we were in a worse state then than we are now

 

How many managers build more than one team at a club? Plenty can come in and over a couple of seasons build a strong team but once that team ages or is disbanded the record for building a second or third team is pretty poor.

 

Ferguson, Wenger, Pep have done it. Not sure you would say Jose was great at it, he usually left before he had to!

[Mills and Boon]

8 minutes ago, Holmesy said:

We haven't lost 14 Pl games this season and the other cup games because of individual errors. They account for some but not the majority - the majority of defeats are because our tactics haven't worked this season and we're defensively weak. And we routinely let the opposition get to our weak defence. Then the errors become a lot more frequent and a lot more costly.

 

 

Loads of those 25 dropped points from winning positions were down to individual rickets. We're only 5 points or so from our "par" league position based on wage spend. It's very fine margins we're talking about 

[GEFAFWISP]

Consistent individual errors is a mentality/concentration issue. That usually falls under a manager's remit to sort, all time unluck isn't some mystical force conspiring to harm us.

[AngelofTheFourth]

1 minute ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Not sure I read that right - Howe should keep his position, but failure to win the league next season should mean he’s sacked?  
 

I think the fairest thing would be to sack him now if that’s the case.  We’re not winning the title next season even if Pep decides he fancies living in Northumberland 

Of course what I'm saying isn't going to happen because too many fans and people at the top think like you. 

 

Howe is the best manager available for any teams outside of Europe. Our best 2 season were outside of Europe. Next season we are going to be outside of Europe again. I can't see any manager coming into the club next season doing better than Howe will do for that season when you consider that the team knows the style, we will be able to play with more intensity etc. 

 

If he gets UCL like he did the previous 2 times with no European football, then I personally think we need to part ways on a high. Instead of giving him another UCL season the fk up again.

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, AngelofTheFourth said:

Of course what I'm saying isn't going to happen because too many fans and people at the top think like you. 

 

Howe is the best manager available for any teams outside of Europe. Our best 2 season were outside of Europe. Next season we are going to be outside of Europe again. I can't see any manager coming into the club next season doing better than Howe will do for that season when you consider that the team knows the style, we will be able to play with more intensity etc. 

 

If he gets UCL like he did the previous 2 times with no European football, then I personally think we need to part ways on a high. Instead of giving him another UCL season the fk up again.

Sorry, Newcastle United won’t win the league next season because I don’t think they will?  I’m not Uri Gellar ye knaa, my thoughts aren’t that powerful 

[Gawalls]

11 minutes ago, bobbydazzla said:

Because no one can predict the future, that’s why. 

And it'll cost a big chunk of money to give out if he can, so far this season we've played 5 teams twice and they remain unbeaten against them (Sunderland, Liverpool, Brentford, Villa & Leeds) with Bournemouth, Brighton, Arsenal, West Ham & Fulham having the chance to add to that. Out of the initial 5 (10 games) we only took two points from them - 8 defeats and two draws. There's a bad season and a BAD SEASON. Fact is our managers are businessmen at the end of the day but also the fact is nobody knows what it takes for them to sack someone yet as other than clearing the decks when they came in they've never done it so god knows what happens but if he does go then none of us can say it's out of the blue.

[bobbydazzla]

16 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

 

That was the exact image I had in mind as I was typing my patter 

 

[Colos Short and Curlies]

3 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Sorry, Newcastle United won’t win the league next season because I don’t think they will?  I’m not Uri Gellar ye knaa, my thoughts aren’t that powerful 

 

Yea sort your attitude out man

[TheBrownBottle]

1 minute ago, bobbydazzla said:

 

That was the exact image I had in mind as I was typing my patter 

 

And that’s it Bobby - that’s your theory?  

[AngelofTheFourth]

2 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Sorry, Newcastle United won’t win the league next season because I don’t think they will?  I’m not Uri Gellar ye knaa, my thoughts aren’t that powerful 

I don't think or expect us to win the league next season.

 

I don't mean it in a way of "Howe you must win the league or you must the sacked". I want him to stay for one  ore season get us UCL football like he has previously done and then part ways once the season is done. Obviously the "parting ways" part wouldn't be happening if we did something completely extraordinary like winning the league.

[bobbydazzla]

21 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

It's not about predicting the future you donut, it's about whether or not Howe has the skill set to get these players to see out a lead. And we know he has, because we've seen him do it.

 

I'm not going to convince you, I know that. You're into "mojo" and nebulous shite like that doesn't gel well with rational thinking 

 

 

I said may he will turn it around, maybe he won't won't. A neutral statement. 

 

You replied Why can't he turn it around, he's done it before

 

And I replied because we can't predict the future. So maybe he will, maybe he won't. None of us can say for certain.

 

Not sure why that's got your knickers in a twist. 

 

And mojo is just an easy to understand way of saying the skills, experience, attitude, motivations the Eddie has. It's not nebulous, it's just shorthand.

 

And for the record, I don't need anyone to convince me of anything. I'm neither firmly in the Howe-out or Howe-in camp. I'm neutral and pretty relaxed on the matter.

 

 

 

Edited April 16 by bobbydazzla

[bobbydazzla]

5 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

And that’s it Bobby - that’s your theory?  

 

Beautifully fucking illustrated

[Holmesy]

12 minutes ago, Mills and Boon said:

 

Why not? We've seen him do it before and we were in a worse state then than we are now

It's a very simplistic view and I know where you're coming from but someone doing a thing before doesn't necessarily mean they'll do it again. Ranieri won the PL with Leicester - why doesn't he win every PL? Because the variables weren't the same after that season.
The variables aren't the same now for us. Our shock & awe approach worked for a period because teams didn't know how to deal with it. Now they do, and our players are older, more tired and let's be honest, probably a bit bored.

The argument isn't can Eddie do it again really. The argument is can he change and is he willing to? That's the unknown. On this season's evidence, people have doubts. Does he even accept that change is needed? If he does, can he do it on the job or does he need to go and have another sabatical to work on his new gameplan? Again, look at the recent evidence, what does it tell you?

Everything we have achieved to-date has been achieved doing variations of the same thing. That same thing doesn't seem to work now and the one thing we haven't seen Eddie do in all his time here is change our fortunes by changing the thing. He admits openly that he has plan A, and if plan A doesn't work it's because the players aren't executing the plan properly. He said this in a recent interview. Well, the players aren't executing plan A properly, what now?

Your argument is either, the thing still works, we just need different tools (or mitigating circumstances are to blame). Or you believe Eddie can do something different despite the fact he hasn't shown us he can. And that is where the optimism comes in, which I admire but don't share.